Dragon w/ maneuvers instead of spells

[Angry Bob]

If you have to justify it to yourself, call it "The dragon used its innate magic to mimic the results of blade magic."

I found the Wyrm of War sovereign archetype in Dragons of Eberron and was underwhelmed.

If the dragon in question traded its sorcerer casting for Warblade maneuvers known and readied, warblade recovery, with all disciplines available, what maneuvers would make a good encounter for what kind of dragon? Which do you think are thematically cool? Which would be optimal? Which would make an entertaining encounter?

Obviously, this is for a hypothetical encounter. As a DM, would you use it? How?

[SurlySeraph]

Flyby Attack lets you take standard actions, so pretty much any strike would work well.

A lot of Iron Heart would be a good idea, both to avoid incapacitation and because Adamantine Hurricane and the like would let it swoop down, hit everybody, then swoop off.

A lot of save-requiring maneuvers would work well, given its enormous Str. If you hand-waved needing to be on the ground, Colossus Strike and other Stone Dragon maneuvers could be interesting; and a lot of Setting Sun to avoid attacks and send people flying would work well.

If it's a non-fire-breathing dragon, some Desert Wind to throw your players for a loop would work well. Especially the maneuvers that are compatible with full attacks.

[navar100]

If it's a non-fire-breathing dragon, some Desert Wind to throw your players for a loop would work well. Especially the maneuvers that are compatible with full attacks.

White Dragon in Flame's Blessing stance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

White Dragon in Flame's Blessing stance.

And using _____ flame line of maneuvers

[Zanatos777]

The fire damage boosts and the Insightful Strike line would probably make people cry. Of course so would Revitalizing Strike.

[Starbuck_II]

A lot of save-requiring maneuvers would work well, given its enormous Str. If you hand-waved needing to be on the ground, Colossus Strike and other Stone Dragon maneuvers could be interesting; and a lot of Setting Sun to avoid attacks and send people flying would work well.

Stone dragon requires the dragon not fly/jump though. You have to standing on ground.

So Tiger Style fits the dragon better (it gives bonuses from attacking from above).

[Coidzor]

As a DM, would you use it? How?

See, the thing is, it basically allows a dragon to be even more of a gish with wings and a breath weapon by picking and choosing maneuvers and spells. So that's how I'd use it, I'd play up the Gishy nature of True Dragons. And with knowstones on the table, it's a better version of the Jade Phoenix Mage but without class features.

At least, as I've always understood it, it wasn't a complete trade of casting.

I'd give it a couple of nasty maneuvers/stances that synergized well with being a giant lizard with lots of natural weapons and focus the rest on spells for gishing (shield, mage armor, wraithstrike, heroics) and general draconic survival (like wings of cover or scintillating scales or wall of X for dividing targets)

Edit: It provides a more compelling reason to play a dragon as a melee monster without completely getting rid of or ignoring its magical side... Or even castrating it magically by giving it the Xorvintaal template.

[The Cat Goddess]

Any Dragon with tunnelling could do well with Stone Dragon maneuvers...

And White Dragons should be able to substitute standing on Ice.

[Thurbane]

Not exactly what the OP is talking about, but if a Fang Dragon picked up some maneuvers via feats and/or items, would make for an interesting encounter.

[Draz74]

Not exactly what the OP is talking about, but if a Fang Dragon picked up some maneuvers via feats and/or items, would make for an interesting encounter.

For that matter, a one-level Warblade dip makes a pretty nasty addition to any Dragon. (Pouncing Charge? Yes please.)

[Angry Bob]

Fang Dragon + Flyby Attack + Adamantine Hurricane

[Draz74]

Fang Dragon + Flyby Attack + Adamantine Hurricane

Powerful, but looks awfully ridiculous when I imagine what it must look like.

[golem1972]

Iron Heart Surge for those pesky Ray of ____ spells or shivering spells.

Leaping Flame (immediate action counter that teleports you next to someone that just attacked you, like that spell slinging mage.)

Action Before Thought (what bad save?)

Time Stands Still (Two Full Attacks) + Girallon Windmill Fleshrip (for massive Rend damage) followed by...

Shadow Stride or Shadow Blink for a "yoinks and away!"

And, of course: Crusader's Strike, Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike, Strike of Righteous Vitality, Iron Heart Endurance, and the stance Immortal Fortitude for when you want the battle to just keep going and going and going.....

[DragonBaneDM]

This is such an awesome idea...

A Black Dragon that goes Shadowhand would be interesting, no?

[faceroll]

I'd be tempted to give it Master of Nine levels.

[The Cat Goddess]

I'd be tempted to give it Master of Nine levels.

Depends on the Dragon... White? Almost certainly not. Green? Possibly.

[faceroll]

Depends on the Dragon... White? Almost certainly not. Green? Possibly.

What's wrong with white dragons?

[Angry Bob]

What's wrong with white dragons?

I don't know. Does anyone else?

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't know. Does anyone else?

To put this as literally as possible, they're morons that can often be outfoxed by peasants.

[Angry Bob]

But with the appropriate maneuvers, they can still make an interesting encounter. Perhaps not optimal, but optimized enemies should only come out of the woodwork when your players become invincible.

[Lord_Gareth]

But with the appropriate maneuvers, they can still make an interesting encounter. Perhaps not optimal, but optimized enemies should only come out of the woodwork when your players become invincible.

Oh, certainly - but a white dragon shouldn't be a master of nine was the point.

[Draz74]

Oh, certainly - but a white dragon shouldn't be a master of nine was the point.

I have a sudden urge to stat up an effective Master of Nine build with very poor mental ability scores, just to absurdify your position.

[Lord_Gareth]

Then I shall have to make a Psion with 3 WIS and CHA!

Not actually to prove a point, mind. Just because it'd be hilarious.

[Eurus]

Then I shall have to make a Psion with 3 WIS and CHA!

Not actually to prove a point, mind. Just because it'd be hilarious.

What, you don't think you can be an emotionally stunted but academically brilliant genius whose first reaction to an obstacle is to kill it with his mind powers? Because frankly I think it's not unrealistic.

[Kaww]

Isn't the Wyrm of war limited to tiger claw martial discipline?

AFB, but I seem to recall something like that.

[Agrippa]

To put this as literally as possible, they're morons that can often be outfoxed by peasants.

I like to think of white dragons as the dragons from Deliverence. They're basically mentally retarded, inbred, walrus humping hick dragons. They make amazing guides, trackers and banjo players though. I'd also replace their sorcerer casting with bard casting of equal level.

[Coidzor]

I like to think of white dragons as the dragons from Deliverence. They're basically mentally retarded, inbred, walrus humping hick dragons. They make amazing guides, trackers and banjo players though. I'd also replace their sorcerer casting with bard casting of equal level.

...Half-Dragon Dire Walrii. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?

*if he ever has a wintery or near-polar game, an invasion of half-dragon walrii is definitely going to happen*

[faceroll]

To put this as literally as possible, they're morons that can often be outfoxed by peasants.

Oh yes, the dnder's intelligence fetish. Haha, forgot about that. My bad, bro.

Oh, certainly - but a white dragon shouldn't be a master of nine was the point.

Huh, I missed the int requirement for master of the nine. Could you tell me what page that prereq was on?

[Angry Bob]

Isn't the Wyrm of war limited to tiger claw martial discipline?

AFB, but I seem to recall something like that.

Covered in first post.

[Eurus]

Huh, I missed the int requirement for master of the nine. Could you tell me what page that prereq was on?

Now that you mention it, it's surprising with all their ridiculous feat prerequisites that Combat Expertise didn't make the cut... would make more sense than blind-fight, at the very least.