4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

[cupkeyk]

Hi my friend is asking me to build him a DMPC for his problematic players.

He needs a super skill monkey because his players only ever have athletics and endurance, if you know what I mean.

I am making a Bard mc Rogue / Jack of all Trades (PP) with the feats Bard of All Trades and Bardic Knowledge(with his skills on the knowledge skills). He doesn't need to be effective in combat so a 16 before racial mods should be fine for cha, but what array would allow him to be effective in any skill. what race will be best? Human? Eladrin?

Basically he needs to be the party's swiss knife.

[Daftendirekt]

If you truly want that bard as diverse as possible, go for half-elf . Dilettante is fantastic; you can choose something more versatile that gives a save or temp HP or something instead of (the practically standard) Twin Strike. Gives him an extra language (since half-elves get elven automatically, before their "one extra language apart from common"). I haven't looked at my 4e stuff in a while, really been in 3.5 mode lately, so I'm sure somebody else can add more than what I just said.

tl;dr - half-elf bard is the most versatile thing in 4e.

[cupkeyk]

Ohh I didn't think of languages, A half-elf with Linguist and Mark Of Scribing would and a polyglot gem and a paragon tier head slot item that granst languages would have, most eberron languages. Thanks.

[MeeposFire]

I typically think it is a good idea to avoid strikers in general as DMPCs as strikers tend to get a lot of spotlight (damage is a very common spotlight winner in most games). As such I recommend lazy build classes like the lazy warlord. These classes help your party in many ways and do not take the spotlight away from the PCs because they use powers that make the PCs attack, such as warlords using commanders strike, rather than attacking themselves.

One build would be a warlord with commanders strike and direct the attack as at wills and you can make int and cha as your two big stats (you do not need str since you will not need to attack).

This way you can boost your party, give him skills your party lacks (use feats to pick up extra skills if needed), and not take the spot light away from the PCs.

[Mando Knight]

Skill-wise? Go with a human. Then take a true Jack-of-all-trades array: 14/14/14/14/10/10.

[Daftendirekt]

I typically think it is a good idea to avoid strikers in general as DMPCs as strikers tend to get a lot of spotlight (damage is a very common spotlight winner in most games).

Uuuhhhh... you know Bards are leaders just like Warlords, right? Hell, IMO, warlord is more strikerish than bard if built appropriately.

[MeeposFire]

Uuuhhhh... you know Bards are leaders just like Warlords, right? Hell, IMO, warlord is more strikerish than bard if built appropriately.

To be honest I somehow saw rogue but missed bard in the first post. I did see bard in your first post though.

Warlords are not strikers, especially lazy warlords. They do ,however, make other classes into strikers. Big difference especially since the warlord is not doing the damage, the PCs are which is keeping the spotlight where it belongs, on them.

A lazy warlord essentially gives the players extra turns at the table rather than giving the DM another turn. From a DMPC perspective this is a great boon as it helps limit the problem of the DMPC getting too much spotlight in combat. Unfortunately due to how the PCs are made out of combat spot light will likely fall into either a warlords or bards hands since they will be the only cha based characters there. Do not know how to help that problem except a man behind the throne mentality.

[cupkeyk]

Skill-wise? Go with a human. Then take a true Jack-of-all-trades array: 14/14/14/14/10/10.

Why Human?

[Mando Knight]

Why Human?

+1 trained skill. Dilettante doesn't grant the right "kind" of versatility for a skill-monkey, whereas that extra trained skill is just what you may need. If you need the extra language, Linguist grants 3 languages... more than enough for most circumstances.

[Daftendirekt]

To be honest I somehow saw rogue but missed bard in the first post. I did see bard in your first post though.

Warlords are not strikers, especially lazy warlords. They do ,however, make other classes into strikers. Big difference especially since the warlord is not doing the damage, the PCs are which is keeping the spotlight where it belongs, on them.

A lazy warlord essentially gives the players extra turns at the table rather than giving the DM another turn. From a DMPC perspective this is a great boon as it helps limit the problem of the DMPC getting too much spotlight in combat. Unfortunately due to how the PCs are made out of combat spot light will likely fall into either a warlords or bards hands since they will be the only cha based characters there. Do not know how to help that problem except a man behind the throne mentality.

Oh, I know what a lazylord is. But it IS possible to make a warlord that attacks on its own, and when build so, is closer to a striker than a bard. (I'M NOT CALLING WARLORDS STRIKERS.)

As for being the party face, person with the highest CHA doesn't necessarily have to fill the spot. If there's a PC that has even a decent CHA, they can do it.

[MeeposFire]

Oh, I know what a lazylord is. But it IS possible to make a warlord that attacks on its own, and when build so, is closer to a striker than a bard. (I'M NOT CALLING WARLORDS STRIKERS.)

As for being the party face, person with the highest CHA doesn't necessarily have to fill the spot. If there's a PC that has even a decent CHA, they can do it.

Sure you could but not as a lazy warlord, which as you will notice I was talking about.

I would recommend that the party does not use the cha based DMPC for cha based skills but the party will be very tempted to since they do not have those skills (or at least that was what the OP is insinuating in my eyes). You are correct though the PCs do not need to use it though. A moderate ability score with training in the skill will usually be enough in most situations especially if you can get an assist.

[cupkeyk]

+1 trained skill. Dilettante doesn't grant the right "kind" of versatility for a skill-monkey, whereas that extra trained skill is just what you may need. If you need the extra language, Linguist grants 3 languages... more than enough for most circumstances.

I might go for gnome for the flavor. Because Linguist + Mark of Scribing is 7 languages.

[MeeposFire]

Various back grounds also grant languages.

[tcrudisi]

Why Human?

Yeah... not human.

Look at the bonuses this way:
+2 to a stat is +1 to skills that use that stat (varies between +1 and +5 total)
skill training = +5 to one stat.
+2 bonuses to a skill = +2 bonus to a skill.

Breakdown of each stat:
Str: One skill
Dex: Three skills
Con: One skill
Int: Three skills
Wis: Five skills
Cha: Four skills

So now that we've got the basics out of the way, let's look at how much various races adds to skills.

Humans: +2 to one stat, free skill training (5 points) = between 6 and 10 points.
Half-Elf: +2 Con (1 point), +2 Diplomacy/Insight (4 points), either +2 Cha (4 point) OR +2 Wisdom (5 points) = 9 or 10 points
Eladrin: +2 Int (3 points), +2 Arcana/History (4 points), free skill training (5 points), either +2 Cha (4 points) OR +2 Dex (3 points) = 15 or 16 points.

Eladrin wins, hands-down.

Now, as for class? There are three real options: Rogue (5 skills), Thief (6 skills + training as you level) ... or, my favorite: Bard (5 skills). I like the Bard best because it can take multiclass training in everything and thereby get skill training in everything. Also, it has the best feats available to it. Also, Eladrin works very well with it (though to be honest, they make pretty fine Rogues and Thieves too).

Bards are also ritual casters, so if languages are a problem, that fixes it.

[cupkeyk]

i am taking an MC feat into rogue to qualify for jack of all trades. which MC feat will be least redundant. Sneak of shadows trains Thievery, i would prefer streetwise.

[Daftendirekt]

Now, as for class? There are three real options: Rogue (5 skills), Thief (6 skills + training as you level) ... or, my favorite: Bard (5 skills). I like the Bard best because it can take multiclass training in everything and thereby get skill training in everything. Also, it has the best feats available to it. Also, Eladrin works very well with it (though to be honest, they make pretty fine Rogues and Thieves too).

Bards are also ritual casters, so if languages are a problem, that fixes it.

Nah, he should really stick with bard. They are the quintessential "5th character", and with good reason. Skill monkey, morale booster, and if built (in)correctly, in no danger at all of hogging any spotlights, whether it be in casting or melee combat.

[cupkeyk]

Other than Gem of Colloquy and Polyglot Gem, what other items grant languages?

[tcrudisi]

Nah, he should really stick with bard. They are the quintessential "5th character", and with good reason. Skill monkey, morale booster, and if built (in)correctly, in no danger at all of hogging any spotlights, whether it be in casting or melee combat.

Hence why I suggested Bard primarily. Plus, with Ritual Casting (given to Bard's for free!) he won't have to worry about training languages. Just take a couple of low-level rituals and he has access to every language. Comprehend Languages: level 1 ritual that allows you to understand and speak any language. And throw in Speak with Nature (level 5) and Speak with Dead (level 6) and you get more languages than anyone purchasing them with feats ever can.

BUT - Rogue and Thief are options. I just also feel that Bard is better.

Cupkeyk: Jack of all Trades only requires Int 13. No need to multiclass for it.

[cupkeyk]

I meant Jack of All Trades the rogue Paragon Path from Martial Power 2 that grants +2 to all skills and training in three skills and the ability to use an action point to boost a skill.

[Daftendirekt]

I meant Jack of All Trades the rogue Paragon Path from Martial Power 2 that grants +2 to all skills and training in three skills and the ability to use an action point to boost a skill.

Oooh, you mean Jack-of-all-Trades, not Jack of all Trades.

[Blackfang108]

+1 trained skill. Dilettante doesn't grant the right "kind" of versatility for a skill-monkey, whereas that extra trained skill is just what you may need. If you need the extra language, Linguist grants 3 languages... more than enough for most circumstances.

See, I prefer Eladrin for this, because the human's skill has to be a Class Skill, where the Eladrin's extra Trained skill can be ANY skill.

[cupkeyk]

PEACH!

This build has high skills in everything! And speaks all known languages in Eberron including telepathy. :D

Spoiler

Show

Ren, level 14
Kalashtar, Bard, Jack-Of-All-Trades
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Cunning
Background: Explorer Guide

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 11, Dex 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14.


AC: 27 Fort: 21 Reflex: 25 Will: 25
HP: 87 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Arcana +19, Athletics +13, Bluff +21, Dungeoneering +19, Endurance +13, History +19, Nature +21, Religion +19, Streetwise +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +24, Heal +16, Insight +18, Intimidate +17, Perception +16, Stealth +14, Thievery +14

FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Mark of Scribing
Level 2: Sly Dodge
Level 4: Linguist
Level 6: Bard of All Trades
Level 8: Heart of the Blade
Level 10: Bardic Knowledge
Level 11: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade/Heavy Blade)
Level 12: Improved Cunning
Level 14: Advatage of Cunning

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: Staggering Note
Bard at-will 1: Vicious Mockery
Bard encounter 1: Blunder
Bard daily 1: Arrow of warning
Bard utility 2: Inspire Competence
Bard encounter 3: Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade
Bard daily 5: Timeless Trek in Mithredain
Bard utility 6: Glimpse the Future
Bard encounter 7: Unluck
Bard daily 9: Counterpoint
Bard utility 10: Illusory Erasure
Jack-of-All-Trades encounter 11: Scoundrel's Philosophy
Jack-of-All-Trades utility 12: Always Natural
Bard encounter 13: Foolhardy Fighting (replaces Blunder)

ITEMS
Farbond Spellblade +3, Spiked shield, Sitar of Restfulness, Feytouched Earthhide +3, Gem of Colloquy (Paragon), Timeless Locket +3, Diplomat's Scabbard, Handy Haversack, Diplomat's Scabbard, Arcane Signet Ring, Camouflaged Clothing, Climber's Kit, Footpads, Everburning Torch, Disguise kit, Inquisitives Kit, Identification papers with Portrait, Rope Silk 50', Thieves' Tools, Travelling Papers, Letter of Marque, standard Adventurer's Kit

RITUALS
Glib Limerick, Brew Potion, Comprehend Languages, Speak with Dead, Speak with Nature, Song of Sustenance, Song of Restfulness

[cupkeyk]

Bump, i would like some criticism on the semi final build.

[Daftendirekt]

Looks solid. I find it highly amusing that your UNTRAINED Diplomacy is your highest skill.

[Mystic Muse]

From what I can tell, Bardic knowledge does not stack with bard of all trades.

EDIT: Didn't realize how old this thread was. Saw it with a recent post on the first page. My critiques are probably no longer relevant.