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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Hi my friend is asking me to build him a DMPC for his problematic players.

    He needs a super skill monkey because his players only ever have athletics and endurance, if you know what I mean.

    I am making a Bard mc Rogue / Jack of all Trades (PP) with the feats Bard of All Trades and Bardic Knowledge(with his skills on the knowledge skills). He doesn't need to be effective in combat so a 16 before racial mods should be fine for cha, but what array would allow him to be effective in any skill. what race will be best? Human? Eladrin?

    Basically he needs to be the party's swiss knife.
    My mother says: those on fire should roll.

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    Daftendirekt's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    If you truly want that bard as diverse as possible, go for half-elf . Dilettante is fantastic; you can choose something more versatile that gives a save or temp HP or something instead of (the practically standard) Twin Strike. Gives him an extra language (since half-elves get elven automatically, before their "one extra language apart from common"). I haven't looked at my 4e stuff in a while, really been in 3.5 mode lately, so I'm sure somebody else can add more than what I just said.

    tl;dr - half-elf bard is the most versatile thing in 4e.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Ohh I didn't think of languages, A half-elf with Linguist and Mark Of Scribing would and a polyglot gem and a paragon tier head slot item that granst languages would have, most eberron languages. Thanks.
    My mother says: those on fire should roll.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    I typically think it is a good idea to avoid strikers in general as DMPCs as strikers tend to get a lot of spotlight (damage is a very common spotlight winner in most games). As such I recommend lazy build classes like the lazy warlord. These classes help your party in many ways and do not take the spotlight away from the PCs because they use powers that make the PCs attack, such as warlords using commanders strike, rather than attacking themselves.

    One build would be a warlord with commanders strike and direct the attack as at wills and you can make int and cha as your two big stats (you do not need str since you will not need to attack).

    This way you can boost your party, give him skills your party lacks (use feats to pick up extra skills if needed), and not take the spot light away from the PCs.
    Last edited by MeeposFire; 2011-02-20 at 07:22 PM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Skill-wise? Go with a human. Then take a true Jack-of-all-trades array: 14/14/14/14/10/10.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Daftendirekt's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    I typically think it is a good idea to avoid strikers in general as DMPCs as strikers tend to get a lot of spotlight (damage is a very common spotlight winner in most games).
    Uuuhhhh... you know Bards are leaders just like Warlords, right? Hell, IMO, warlord is more strikerish than bard if built appropriately.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    Uuuhhhh... you know Bards are leaders just like Warlords, right? Hell, IMO, warlord is more strikerish than bard if built appropriately.
    To be honest I somehow saw rogue but missed bard in the first post. I did see bard in your first post though.

    Warlords are not strikers, especially lazy warlords. They do ,however, make other classes into strikers. Big difference especially since the warlord is not doing the damage, the PCs are which is keeping the spotlight where it belongs, on them.

    A lazy warlord essentially gives the players extra turns at the table rather than giving the DM another turn. From a DMPC perspective this is a great boon as it helps limit the problem of the DMPC getting too much spotlight in combat. Unfortunately due to how the PCs are made out of combat spot light will likely fall into either a warlords or bards hands since they will be the only cha based characters there. Do not know how to help that problem except a man behind the throne mentality.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Skill-wise? Go with a human. Then take a true Jack-of-all-trades array: 14/14/14/14/10/10.
    Why Human?
    My mother says: those on fire should roll.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    Why Human?
    +1 trained skill. Dilettante doesn't grant the right "kind" of versatility for a skill-monkey, whereas that extra trained skill is just what you may need. If you need the extra language, Linguist grants 3 languages... more than enough for most circumstances.

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    Daftendirekt's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    To be honest I somehow saw rogue but missed bard in the first post. I did see bard in your first post though.

    Warlords are not strikers, especially lazy warlords. They do ,however, make other classes into strikers. Big difference especially since the warlord is not doing the damage, the PCs are which is keeping the spotlight where it belongs, on them.

    A lazy warlord essentially gives the players extra turns at the table rather than giving the DM another turn. From a DMPC perspective this is a great boon as it helps limit the problem of the DMPC getting too much spotlight in combat. Unfortunately due to how the PCs are made out of combat spot light will likely fall into either a warlords or bards hands since they will be the only cha based characters there. Do not know how to help that problem except a man behind the throne mentality.
    Oh, I know what a lazylord is. But it IS possible to make a warlord that attacks on its own, and when build so, is closer to a striker than a bard. (I'M NOT CALLING WARLORDS STRIKERS.)

    As for being the party face, person with the highest CHA doesn't necessarily have to fill the spot. If there's a PC that has even a decent CHA, they can do it.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    Oh, I know what a lazylord is. But it IS possible to make a warlord that attacks on its own, and when build so, is closer to a striker than a bard. (I'M NOT CALLING WARLORDS STRIKERS.)

    As for being the party face, person with the highest CHA doesn't necessarily have to fill the spot. If there's a PC that has even a decent CHA, they can do it.
    Sure you could but not as a lazy warlord, which as you will notice I was talking about.

    I would recommend that the party does not use the cha based DMPC for cha based skills but the party will be very tempted to since they do not have those skills (or at least that was what the OP is insinuating in my eyes). You are correct though the PCs do not need to use it though. A moderate ability score with training in the skill will usually be enough in most situations especially if you can get an assist.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    +1 trained skill. Dilettante doesn't grant the right "kind" of versatility for a skill-monkey, whereas that extra trained skill is just what you may need. If you need the extra language, Linguist grants 3 languages... more than enough for most circumstances.
    I might go for gnome for the flavor. Because Linguist + Mark of Scribing is 7 languages.
    My mother says: those on fire should roll.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Various back grounds also grant languages.

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    Why Human?
    Yeah... not human.

    Look at the bonuses this way:
    +2 to a stat is +1 to skills that use that stat (varies between +1 and +5 total)
    skill training = +5 to one stat.
    +2 bonuses to a skill = +2 bonus to a skill.

    Breakdown of each stat:
    Str: One skill
    Dex: Three skills
    Con: One skill
    Int: Three skills
    Wis: Five skills
    Cha: Four skills

    So now that we've got the basics out of the way, let's look at how much various races adds to skills.

    Humans: +2 to one stat, free skill training (5 points) = between 6 and 10 points.
    Half-Elf: +2 Con (1 point), +2 Diplomacy/Insight (4 points), either +2 Cha (4 point) OR +2 Wisdom (5 points) = 9 or 10 points
    Eladrin: +2 Int (3 points), +2 Arcana/History (4 points), free skill training (5 points), either +2 Cha (4 points) OR +2 Dex (3 points) = 15 or 16 points.

    Eladrin wins, hands-down.

    Now, as for class? There are three real options: Rogue (5 skills), Thief (6 skills + training as you level) ... or, my favorite: Bard (5 skills). I like the Bard best because it can take multiclass training in everything and thereby get skill training in everything. Also, it has the best feats available to it. Also, Eladrin works very well with it (though to be honest, they make pretty fine Rogues and Thieves too).

    Bards are also ritual casters, so if languages are a problem, that fixes it.
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    i am taking an MC feat into rogue to qualify for jack of all trades. which MC feat will be least redundant. Sneak of shadows trains Thievery, i would prefer streetwise.
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    Daftendirekt's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    Now, as for class? There are three real options: Rogue (5 skills), Thief (6 skills + training as you level) ... or, my favorite: Bard (5 skills). I like the Bard best because it can take multiclass training in everything and thereby get skill training in everything. Also, it has the best feats available to it. Also, Eladrin works very well with it (though to be honest, they make pretty fine Rogues and Thieves too).

    Bards are also ritual casters, so if languages are a problem, that fixes it.
    Nah, he should really stick with bard. They are the quintessential "5th character", and with good reason. Skill monkey, morale booster, and if built (in)correctly, in no danger at all of hogging any spotlights, whether it be in casting or melee combat.

  17. - Top - End - #17
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Other than Gem of Colloquy and Polyglot Gem, what other items grant languages?
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    tcrudisi's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    Nah, he should really stick with bard. They are the quintessential "5th character", and with good reason. Skill monkey, morale booster, and if built (in)correctly, in no danger at all of hogging any spotlights, whether it be in casting or melee combat.
    Hence why I suggested Bard primarily. Plus, with Ritual Casting (given to Bard's for free!) he won't have to worry about training languages. Just take a couple of low-level rituals and he has access to every language. Comprehend Languages: level 1 ritual that allows you to understand and speak any language. And throw in Speak with Nature (level 5) and Speak with Dead (level 6) and you get more languages than anyone purchasing them with feats ever can.

    BUT - Rogue and Thief are options. I just also feel that Bard is better.

    Cupkeyk: Jack of all Trades only requires Int 13. No need to multiclass for it.
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    I meant Jack of All Trades the rogue Paragon Path from Martial Power 2 that grants +2 to all skills and training in three skills and the ability to use an action point to boost a skill.
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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    I meant Jack of All Trades the rogue Paragon Path from Martial Power 2 that grants +2 to all skills and training in three skills and the ability to use an action point to boost a skill.
    Oooh, you mean Jack-of-all-Trades, not Jack of all Trades.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    +1 trained skill. Dilettante doesn't grant the right "kind" of versatility for a skill-monkey, whereas that extra trained skill is just what you may need. If you need the extra language, Linguist grants 3 languages... more than enough for most circumstances.
    See, I prefer Eladrin for this, because the human's skill has to be a Class Skill, where the Eladrin's extra Trained skill can be ANY skill.
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    PEACH!

    This build has high skills in everything! And speaks all known languages in Eberron including telepathy. :D

    Spoiler
    Show
    Ren, level 14
    Kalashtar, Bard, Jack-Of-All-Trades
    Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Cunning
    Background: Explorer Guide

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 11, Dex 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 19.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 10, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14.


    AC: 27 Fort: 21 Reflex: 25 Will: 25
    HP: 87 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 21

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +15, Arcana +19, Athletics +13, Bluff +21, Dungeoneering +19, Endurance +13, History +19, Nature +21, Religion +19, Streetwise +20

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Diplomacy +24, Heal +16, Insight +18, Intimidate +17, Perception +16, Stealth +14, Thievery +14

    FEATS
    Bard: Ritual Caster
    Level 1: Mark of Scribing
    Level 2: Sly Dodge
    Level 4: Linguist
    Level 6: Bard of All Trades
    Level 8: Heart of the Blade
    Level 10: Bardic Knowledge
    Level 11: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade/Heavy Blade)
    Level 12: Improved Cunning
    Level 14: Advatage of Cunning

    POWERS
    Bard at-will 1: Staggering Note
    Bard at-will 1: Vicious Mockery
    Bard encounter 1: Blunder
    Bard daily 1: Arrow of warning
    Bard utility 2: Inspire Competence
    Bard encounter 3: Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade
    Bard daily 5: Timeless Trek in Mithredain
    Bard utility 6: Glimpse the Future
    Bard encounter 7: Unluck
    Bard daily 9: Counterpoint
    Bard utility 10: Illusory Erasure
    Jack-of-All-Trades encounter 11: Scoundrel's Philosophy
    Jack-of-All-Trades utility 12: Always Natural
    Bard encounter 13: Foolhardy Fighting (replaces Blunder)

    ITEMS
    Farbond Spellblade +3, Spiked shield, Sitar of Restfulness, Feytouched Earthhide +3, Gem of Colloquy (Paragon), Timeless Locket +3, Diplomat's Scabbard, Handy Haversack, Diplomat's Scabbard, Arcane Signet Ring, Camouflaged Clothing, Climber's Kit, Footpads, Everburning Torch, Disguise kit, Inquisitives Kit, Identification papers with Portrait, Rope Silk 50', Thieves' Tools, Travelling Papers, Letter of Marque, standard Adventurer's Kit

    RITUALS
    Glib Limerick, Brew Potion, Comprehend Languages, Speak with Dead, Speak with Nature, Song of Sustenance, Song of Restfulness
    Last edited by cupkeyk; 2011-02-21 at 01:30 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Bump, i would like some criticism on the semi final build.
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    Daftendirekt's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    Looks solid. I find it highly amusing that your UNTRAINED Diplomacy is your highest skill.

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    Mystic Muse's Avatar

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    Default Re: 4e DMPC Stat array and Race assist

    From what I can tell, Bardic knowledge does not stack with bard of all trades.

    EDIT: Didn't realize how old this thread was. Saw it with a recent post on the first page. My critiques are probably no longer relevant.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2011-03-20 at 12:45 AM.
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