A question on factotums

[CycloneJoker]

Why are they tier 3? Why not tier two? Well I admit, they've got nothing on Batman/Cheater of Mysteria/Psychic Batman, in my experience they consistently outperform all but the most specialized Sorcerers/Favored Souls, and are basically this every other field, and are comparable in the field. You want to blow the everloving bujeebus out of the BBEG? Okay, the factotum just did, like, 12d6+str, and can still Fireball or similar. Only a Psion can match the Factotum in the action economy. You want to control the battlefield? Okay, anyone within 50' of the Factotum is prone, or he just dazed, like, 15 people. The Factotum can also cover all of the skills of the group, with being almost entirely SAD on Int with 6 skill points. I can't think of anything the Factotum can't do, barring Wish, infinite Gate stupidity, and similar levels of idiocy. Is it just that I really like them, and play them quite a bit, or are they really high on the tier 3 list?

[tuesdayscoming]

Being limited to very few spells/day, and having a hard ceiling of level 7 arcane spells is probably the main reason. They are an extraordinarily versatile class, no doubt, and can be quite powerful. It is not inaccurate, however, to say that spellcasting is the single most powerful ability in the game, and the limitations imposed on that of the factotum are pretty harsh (at least compared to a full caster).

[CycloneJoker]

Being limited to very few spells/day, and having a hard ceiling of level 7 arcane spells is probably the main reason. They are an extraordinarily versatile class, no doubt, and can be quite powerful. It is not inaccurate, however, to say that spellcasting is the single most powerful ability in the game, and the limitations imposed on that of the factotum are pretty harsh (at least compared to a full caster).

Point. They just seemed so far above every other tier three I've played, or seen played. Then again, no tier three has good spellcasting, so meh.

[Greenish]

this

Envy is a girl?

Then again, no tier three has good spellcasting, so meh.

Your definition of "good spellcasting" is quite wonky if it doesn't include beguilers or dread necromancers.

[CycloneJoker]

Envy is a girl?
Your definition of "good spellcasting" is quite wonky if it doesn't include beguilers or dread necromancers.

I have no idea if envy even has a gender.

Allow me to rephrase: good enough spellcasting to warrant not playing something otherwise superior in basically everything, to such an extent that it's, at the very least, on par with the casting without casting. Just adding the little bit of casting throws it well beyond either.

Also, in my experience, Necros are pretty good, and beguilers are meh. Then again, in all of my games, either we have no heavy hitters/meat shields or everyone is, so that kinda makes classes that need one or the other seem kinda meh.

[Greenish]

Allow me to rephrase: good enough spellcasting to warrant not playing something otherwise superior in basically everything, to such an extent that it's, at the very least, on par with the casting without casting. Just adding the little bit of casting throws it well beyond either.

Wait, what? What is what has casting is superior without casting of what in the what with onions & cream?

Also, in my experience, Necros are pretty good, and beguilers are meh. Then again, in all of my games, either we have no heavy hitters/meat shields or everyone is, so that kinda makes classes that need one or the other seem kinda meh.

Beguilers need what?

[CycloneJoker]

Wait, what? What is what has casting is superior without casting of what in the what with onions & cream?
Beguilers need what?

The Factotum, if you ignore its casting, is at the very least, on par with a beguiler. Adding the casting makes it superior.

Beguilers, as far as I can tell, with my limited experience with them, function best in a party with a meatshield and a heavy hitter.

[Fox Box Socks]

The fact that the Factotum (and, for that matter, the Warblade) are Tier 3 instead of Tier 2 is less a matter of how strong they are and more a matter of them not having access to high-level magic (which is just soul-crushingly powerful).

Both are rather high Tier 3.

[CycloneJoker]

The fact that the Factotum (and, for that matter, the Warblade) are Tier 3 instead of Tier 2 is less a matter of how strong they are and more a matter of them not having access to high-level magic (which is just soul-crushingly powerful).

Both are rather high Tier 3.

So it's not my imagination/inexperience with others/etc. that Factotum is much, much better than most of ToB/Bards/etc?

By the way, where is the rest of ToB in there, and please define "rather high."

[Fox Box Socks]

Since Tiers are fluid and largely a matter of opinion, it's tough to nail down what goes where within each tier. All ToB classes are considered Tier 3, but the opinion is that Warblade is better than Crusader, which is better than Swordsage.

High Tier 3 means exactly that: it's on the cusp of Tier 2, but not quite there. A highly optimized Factotum is generally going to be on par with a somewhat optimized Sorcerer or Favored Soul.

[CycloneJoker]

That's what I thought. I was thinking that a Factotum should be very low tier two. Yeah, the lack of wish kinda kills it.

[Kaww]

If I may say something, with all due respect to JaronK.

Tier system is awfully relative. No experienced DM will allow chaining wishes and other nonsense. So tier 1, while existent, is overrated and rarely seen. I never saw my players playing "tier 1" in any way I didn't anticipate. Also I saw ninjas, monks and barbarians outperforming casters in combat and out of it, due to play styles. Leadership - the most broken feat ever, banned at most tables, is easily gained via RP with some 10+ followers.

Factotum, even without spells, can easily outperform a full caster in certain situations. Lvl 11 beguiler encounters a golem, horde of undead, elementals, etc and makes a new character. Lvl 11 factotum in the same situation has tons of choices, which correctly used defeat something appearing impossible to others.

Also most of his abilities are ex - so he is rather useful in an AMF, in which all casters cry.

[CycloneJoker]

If I may say something, with all due respect to JaronK.

Tier system is awfully relative. No experienced DM will allow chaining wishes and other nonsense. So tier 1, while existent, is overrated and rarely seen. I never saw my players playing "tier 1" in any way I didn't anticipate. Also I saw ninjas, monks and barbarians outperforming casters in combat and out of it, due to play styles. Leadership - the most broken feat ever, banned at most tables, is easily gained via RP with some 10+ followers.

Factotum, even without spells, can easily outperform a full caster in certain situations. Lvl 11 beguiler encounters a golem, horde of undead, elementals, etc and makes a new character. Lvl 11 factotum in the same situation has tons of choices, which correctly used defeat something appearing impossible to others.

Also most of his abilities are ex - so he is rather useful in an AMF, in which all casters cry.

You forgot about Cheater of Mysteria. Still, in my experience, even without Contact other Plane, chain gates/wishes/etc. they still outperform almost everything. They still sing "anything you can do" to everyone. I have never seen a monk/barbarian/ninja/fighter/scout outperform a caster unless the caster was playing nice. ToB, I have.

[Greenish]

Lvl 11 beguiler encounters a golem, horde of undead, elementals, etc and makes a new character.

I think you're confusing beguiler with rogue. Rogue is the one with Sneak Attack, to which those critters are immune. Beguiler is the one with spells.

[LOTRfan]

Well, two of the three creatures mentioned are immune to mind-affecting spells, which is what the Beguiler specializes in, no?

[Kaww]

You forgot about Cheater of Mysteria. Still, in my experience, even without Contact other Plane, chain gates/wishes/etc. they still outperform almost everything. They still sing "anything you can do" to everyone. I have never seen a monk/barbarian/ninja/fighter/scout outperform a caster unless the caster was playing nice. ToB, I have.

I have seen a VoP ninja do ~ 300 dmg at lvl 10, with a single crit.
And doing ~ 150 - 200 per round.

Monk killing 3 driders, while the rest of the party was fighting the remaining three, and before they killed one.

Anything can be crazy optimized...

[Kaww]

I think you're confusing beguiler with rogue. Rogue is the one with Sneak Attack, to which those critters are immune. Beguiler is the one with spells.

90% of which are mind effecting. And golems and undead laugh at this, or they would if they could.

I prefer Beguilers to Wizards, because they are less cheesy, but they have their flaws.

Well, two of the three creatures mentioned are immune to mind-affecting spells, which is what the Beguiler specializes in, no?

It's hard fighting earth elementals when standing on earth, since you don't have line of sight/effect to it.

EDIT: I apologize for DP.

[CycloneJoker]

I have seen a VoP ninja do ~ 300 dmg at lvl 10, with a single crit.
And doing ~ 150 - 200 per round.

Monk killing 3 driders, while the rest of the party was fighting the remaining three, and before they killed one.

Anything can be crazy optimized...

I've seen a Sorcerer destroy an entire encounter of a higher CR than him and vastly outnumbered, in, like, two turns. The monk was running like cheap paint.

[dextercorvia]

Beguilers, as far as I can tell, with my limited experience with them, function best in a party with a meatshield and a heavy hitter.

If you feel that way, then perhaps it is fortunate that they have a mechanic for gaining such things.

[CycloneJoker]

If you feel that way, then perhaps it is fortunate that they have a mechanic for gaining such things.

Also, it's worth noting that their only means of offense are Power Words.

[sonofzeal]

I have seen a VoP ninja do ~ 300 dmg at lvl 10, with a single crit.
And doing ~ 150 - 200 per round.

Monk killing 3 driders, while the rest of the party was fighting the remaining three, and before they killed one.

Anything can be crazy optimized...

These are pretty incredible claims. Do you have any information on how they were accomplished? Was any homebrew involved? Are you sure the Monk and Ninja were actually those classes, and not (say) Unarmed Swordsages or Tashalatora PsiWars claiming to be Monks and Ninjas?

[Kaww]

I've seen a Sorcerer destroy an entire encounter of a higher CR than him and vastly outnumbered, in, like, two turns. The monk was running like cheap paint.

As I said it is all relative. I'm not saying that monk and ninja are OP. I'm saying they can be well played. Even more so if the DM knows how to balance the party/pick encounters.

These are pretty incredible claims. Do you have any information on how they were accomplished? Was any homebrew involved? Are you sure the Monk and Ninja were actually those classes, and not (say) Unarmed Swordsages or Tashalatora PsiWars claiming to be Monks and Ninjas?

Dragon feat Ki smite - added some 10 + (~35) dmg that was x4, OA PrC added Wis (was around 30-35) to dmg, which was also x4. Weapon dmg d10 x 4, +8 from VoP, Str was also some 16, so +12...

Monk was throwing driders into an abyss, had insanely high grapple - he was a werebear...

[Urpriest]

Beguilers have full-list casting, so while much of their list is useless when fighting something immune to mind-affecting, they can simply focus on the stuff that does work (under some interpretations this means most illusion).

Factotums are very powerful, but aside from action-economy breaking they don't have any characteristically Tier 1 tricks. Their ability to teleport or use divination is quite limited, so they can't Scry&Die. They can only use things like polymorph or summoning a few times per day, so they can't Monster-Manual-Dive. They have extraordinarily limited access to no-save-full-field-battlefield control. They have essentially no ability to flood the field with minions. Tier 1 is defined by its tricks that break the fundamental assumptions of the game, not simply by raw power, and the Factotum has very limited access to these tricks.

[dextercorvia]

Also, it's worth noting that their only means of offense are Power Words.

Did you miss the Hold X line, the Whelm line, Legion of Sentinels, Slow, etc?

He isn't useless against Mind Effecting immune, he just has to use his disposable minions against them, preferably buffed with Haste.

[Khatoblepas]

The Factotum, if you ignore its casting, is at the very least, on par with a beguiler. Adding the casting makes it superior.

The Beguiler and Factotum are on equal footing. Beguilers have 9th level spells (some nice, some not so nice), while Factotums have endless versatility.

Against Undead and Golems, use Illusions. Golems have a weak will save, are usually unintelligent, so rarely can realise what they're facing is an illusion. Create an illusion around them and they're as harmless as kittens. Bonus points if it's an illusion of the room they're in, sans threats. Undead can be just as duped as anyone else, so long as you keep away from Mind Affecting spells. Elementals? Hah! They're not immune to mind affecting spells. Charm or dominate to taste. Just ready an action to cast it when the earth elemental pops out of the ground. They don't have good will saves.

Eclectic learning can get you some offensive spells for use against other stuff. In AMF, you have at least 20ft of movement, if not more. Walk out.

Factotums have a lot of stuff going for them, but don't have 9th level spells. They're never going to be Tier 2. They're just very very good. They have spells, but not many per day and not very high level ones. They have skills, but that's their role. Skillmonkey. They can get Iajutsu Focus to get their precision damage on and make their damage output acceptable, but at personal cost to make themselves worse than a rogue's output.

But they can't break the game. And thus, no matter how much the Factotum dreams and wishes upon a star, he will never go up a Tier.

[Greenish]

90% of which are mind effecting. And golems and undead laugh at this, or they would if they could.

Elementals have weak will saves and no special defences for anything beguilers do.

Golems and most undead are mindless, and thus easy prey for illusions. If that doesn't work, granted, beguilers don't have so many options, just the miscellaneous stuff like haste, slow, solid fog, legion of sentinels, glitterdust, charm monster'ed elementals from the previous encounter and so forth.

Hardly enough to warrant rerolling.