Combat skillmonkey?

[WarKitty]

I have a player that likes to play a skillmonkey but also prefers to run up and hit things. It's been causing some effectiveness problems because the player is playing a rogue for the skills but doesn't want to worry about sneak attack. Essentially, the player plays a tank whether she has a tank build or not. Is there any good class that gets decent skill points but is also relatively effective in melee?

[Keld Denar]

What skills are you looking for? Through the use of ACFs and variant classes, you can get lots of different skills on different classes. Ranger and Barbarian both get decent skills with ACFs for things like trapfinding, while Paladins get Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Most martial classes get Ride, which can be traded for Tumble with the Skilled City Dweller ACF from the Cityscape web enhancement.

[WarKitty]

What skills are you looking for? Through the use of ACFs and variant classes, you can get lots of different skills on different classes. Ranger and Barbarian both get decent skills with ACFs for things like trapfinding, while Paladins get Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Most martial classes get Ride, which can be traded for Tumble with the Skilled City Dweller ACF from the Cityscape web enhancement.

It's not the specific skills so much as having the points available. She doesn't have a lot of int and all the classes that would fit her fighting style only give her 2+int skill points per level.

[Morbis Meh]

Well this may not be enough skill oriented but try a Warblade from the ToB it is way better than a standard tank it gets 4+ Int and int is one of the stats you want to put points into because you get bonuses later. Another option may be a factotum (Dungeonscape) specializing in Iajitsu Focus, they get 6+ Int but Int is their main stat and with a monks belt and a feat that allows to switch monks bonuses from Wis to Int they can have a huge AC, for more damage go into the PrC Iajitsu Master. They also get ALL skills as class skills.

[Keld Denar]

Duskblade, despite only having 2+int skill points, casts off int, so being a duskblade you'll want a resonably high int. Duskblade's also have a decent skill list with all knowledges and some other goodies.

[true_shinken]

Daring Outlaw (Rogue/Swashbuckler) and Swift Hunter (Scout/Ranger) seem to do exactly what you want.

[dspeyer]

There's an ACF that lets rogues trade sneak attack for fighter-style bonus feats.

Alternatively, swordsage has 6+int skills and a pretty broad class skill list.

[Coidzor]

Rogue1+Able Learner+Ranger/Melee Combo X or Factotum1-3+Able Learner+Melee Combo X.

It's not the specific skills so much as having the points available. She doesn't have a lot of int and all the classes that would fit her fighting style only give her 2+int skill points per level.

Then it sounds like she was exercising bad character planning, design, and tactical sense. And it raises the question of whether she actually likes playing a skillmonkey or if she felt obligated to do it since someone had to have skills in the party...:/

So you either have to educate her in tactics, building a character, or throw her a bone by giving her some houseruled/homebrewed material.

Giving high HD and high skills to a blocks enemies attacks with their face character doesn't really mesh with what I can gather of the mainstream design philosophy of WOTC 3.X.

[Zaq]

Can you give me some indication of what you mean by "playing as a tank"? Does your player just want more damage? Are they not hitting frequently enough? Are they taking too much damage? What precisely is the issue?

[Kyuu Himura]

I find surprising that no one said Swordsage.

You get 6+int skill points, decent AC, and tons of manuevers, just specialize in tiger claw and/or diamond mind, with a splash of desert wind for some bonus damage, a heavy hitter right there. You also get proficiency with every simple and martial melee weapon, light armor and a small bonus to damage when using certain techniques. Skill list is decent too.

On the downside, they have only a d8 for hit dice and 3/4 lvl for Base Attack bonus, however, it is one of the classes that gets you what you want.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think the issue is "rogue's best class ability is sneak attack, but the player is too gung-ho to worry about setting up sneak attacks."

A possible answer would be to trade sneak attack for fighter feats. Once you get a wand of divine power (max out UMD, naturally), the rogue will be able to charge into battle and fight as well as a fighter. A feat like melee evasion should help him cope with his lack of heavy armor, or just boost dex sky high and get mithral breast plate.

My favorite feat rogue build involves taking spirited charge and fighting from the back of a mount with a lance, though I believe Human Paragon features into that build as well.

[Zaq]

I think the issue is "rogue's best class ability is sneak attack, but the player is too gung-ho to worry about setting up sneak attacks."

If this is the case, there's always the Scout (CAdv). Charging headfirst into battle triggers your bonus d6s. They don't get as many as the rogue, but they're a lot easier to get. The only problem is the full attack, but at low levels that shouldn't be an issue.

[Curmudgeon]

Is there any good class that gets decent skill points but is also relatively effective in melee?

Few classes get as many skill points as the Rogue. The Scout's skirmish isn't as effective as sneak attack when executed effectively, but the player is obviously not patient enough for effective execution. So skirmish is a reasonable choice, as others have already pointed out.

You can leverage skill points into combat effectiveness with two feats:

• Education (Eberron Campaign Setting): makes all Knowledges class skills; and
• Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion): bonus to attack and damage enemies based on Knowledge checks.

There are 6 Knowledge skills related to creature types; those cover all the monsters in the D&D world. Human with a decent INT (14 with point buy) could maximize all of them and still be top-notch with a handful of other skills.

[WarKitty]

If this is the case, there's always the Scout (CAdv). Charging headfirst into battle triggers your bonus d6s. They don't get as many as the rogue, but they're a lot easier to get. The only problem is the full attack, but at low levels that shouldn't be an issue.

Is there any way to get this to work better with a full attack? We're level 11, and she's a TWF build.

Honestly, part of the issue is we have a "real roleplayer" with a bad case of ingrained stormwind fallacy.

[Keld Denar]

Barbarian and Ranger have similar fluff. Spirit Lion Barb1/Scout4/Ranger6 with Swift Hunter would get you 4 base attacks on a charge (2 mainhand, 2 offhand, +haste, etc). At 12, she's have the BAB and feat to take GTWF for 6 base attacks. Still retains a lot of wilderness based skillfulness.

Not really any way to do this without multiclass penalties unless you have some way to gain additional favored class types.

[true_shinken]

Is there any way to get this to work better with a full attack? We're level 11, and she's a TWF build.

Honestly, part of the issue is we have a "real roleplayer" with a bad case of ingrained stormwind fallacy.

Just get her free movement and call it a day.

[Coidzor]

Is there any way to get this to work better with a full attack? We're level 11, and she's a TWF build.

Honestly, part of the issue is we have a "real roleplayer" with a bad case of ingrained stormwind fallacy.

Nope. Not with that kind of person dictating how all of you have to play.

Riposte almost works since she apparently wants to block swords with her face, but in order to really work out it needs things like robilar's gambit/karmic strike/both and a mix of DR/good HD/miss chances to weather the cost of it. But it is an ACF

Barbarian 1 as a dip for pounce makes the most sense, as the character sounds like it wishes it were a barbarian in combat. But it's both multiclassing and an ACF.

Since she's TWF, she really should've grabbed some ranger....x.x

Unless you can find some way to get free movement that would be able to get past this other person without causing a fracas, anyway...

[WarKitty]

Nope. Not with that kind of person dictating how all of you have to play.

Riposte almost works since she apparently wants to block swords with her face, but in order to really work out it needs things like robilar's gambit/karmic strike/both and a mix of DR/good HD/miss chances to weather the cost of it. But it is an ACF

Barbarian 1 as a dip for pounce makes the most sense, as the character sounds like it wishes it were a barbarian in combat. But it's both multiclassing and an ACF.

Since she's TWF, she really should've grabbed some ranger....x.x

Unless you can find some way to get free movement that would be able to get past this other person without causing a fracas, anyway...

Eh, she doesn't really interfere with the way other people want to play. It's more that, well, the rest of the group optimizes. She doesn't optimize, and then gets frustrated when she's not that effective in combat.

[Coidzor]

Eh, she doesn't really interfere with the way other people want to play. It's more that, well, the rest of the group optimizes. She doesn't optimize, and then gets frustrated when she's not that effective in combat.

Well, you can only tone down the rest of the group and your encounters so much. She has to understand that if she's intentionally going to go against the rules of the system and cripple her ability to do what she wants to do in combat, she's going to have to die with it. You can only offer so much help, after all.

[WarKitty]

Well, you can only tone down the rest of the group and your encounters so much. She has to understand that if she's intentionally going to go against the rules of the system and cripple her ability to do what she wants to do in combat, she's going to have to die with it. You can only offer so much help, after all.

Thinking of a pair of boots that lets her do 1/2 sneak attack damage in exchange for moving at least 10 feet. And hopefully she put points into acrobatics. It's not a super high optimization game, so she's probably be fine with that.

[Zaq]

Is there any way to get this to work better with a full attack? We're level 11, and she's a TWF build.

Honestly, part of the issue is we have a "real roleplayer" with a bad case of ingrained stormwind fallacy.

Greater Manyshot is the key to getting multiple Skirmishes at range. (Swift Hunter, from Complete Scoundrel, lets you mix Ranger and Scout. Doing so makes the BAB easier, but gets fewer skills per level and class features that are less interesting.) If you want to be melee, the list of pounce/free movement techniques has already been linked.

[Waker]

It's not an excellent solution, but some prestige classes might help toughen her up a bit in combat while still letting her be a good fighter. Nightsong Enforcer from CAdv or Dread Commando from HoB are good for that.

[Cyrion]

You might also want to look at Battle Trickster and possibly Uncanny Trickster from Complete Scoundrel. They're both designed to build on the skill monkey and give some buff to the combat. If she didn't design the character to use the classes, though, they may be of limited value since they rely on skill tricks, and some of those have high skill requirements.

[ericgrau]

Give him a masterwork or magic buckler (no non-proficiency penalty) and don't forget he gets sneak attack in round 1 if he hits something whose initiative he beats. He can also use his buckler hand as his crossbow reloading hand, as the buckler is strapped to his arm. At higher levels recommend range in round 1 to get a full attack. Once he does get in melee and gets thwacked remind him he can hit and then tumble away. Or carry a healing potion in his buckler hand at all times, then when things get ugly tumble away and quaff it. And of course tumble into flanking when first engaging melee.

[PetterTomBos]

If the party just needs the skills:

Play cleric with max possible int

bastards and bloodlines have a feat that let you cast with int.

Use spells that buff yourself and make you better at the skills you use :)

[Coidzor]

It's not an excellent solution, but some prestige classes might help toughen her up a bit in combat while still letting her be a good fighter. Nightsong Enforcer from CAdv or Dread Commando from HoB are good for that.

You might also want to look at Battle Trickster and possibly Uncanny Trickster from Complete Scoundrel. They're both designed to build on the skill monkey and give some buff to the combat. If she didn't design the character to use the classes, though, they may be of limited value since they rely on skill tricks, and some of those have high skill requirements.

Well, now I feel dumb for forgetting about those. x,x

[WarKitty]

If the party just needs the skills:

Play cleric with max possible int

bastards and bloodlines have a feat that let you cast with int.

Use spells that buff yourself and make you better at the skills you use :)

It's more that we have a player that wants to be able to smash people's faces in, but also wants to be able to use hide/move silently/acrobatics/various knowledges/survival.

[Keld Denar]

Dread Commando is ok for face smashing skill based goodness. Heroes of Battle. Its only 5 levels long, but it allows you to move igore many penalizing aspects of armor while moving at regular speed. Plus, you give your whole party a +level bonus on Init, which is pretty sexy for alpha strikes. The sudden strike is just gravy on the walls at that point. Full BAB too, too bad its not longer than 5 levels though...

[Thurbane]

How about a Rogue/Fighter (thug variant) (UA) with Able Learner? Maybe going into the Dread Commando PrC (HoH)?

[gorfnab]

It's more that we have a player that wants to be able to smash people's faces in, but also wants to be able to use hide/move silently/acrobatics/various knowledges/survival.

Factotum (with Able Learner feat) 3/ Warblade X could easily do this if the player is willing to rebuild thief character.