[4e] Adding a Craft skill

[Erom]

Hey all. Something that has come up over and over in my 4e games and players have complained about on two separate occasions (these are players without knowledge of previous editions, so that's not where it's coming from) is the lack of a skill related to putting things back together.

Using Arcana for magical devices is obvious, of course, and using Athletics when things just need to be muscled into position works, but using Thievery for every single device related roll falls flat. Sure, I can see thievery being what you roll to repair a broken door locking mechanism or something, but what about say... a horses bridle? What about a masonry wall? etc etc.

So I want to add Craft back into the game. I was thinking for simplicity Craft would be a single skill check that is rolled for ALL types of crafting: Masonry, Carpentry, Basketweaving, etc.

I have no idea how to do this in a balanced manner.

For versimilitude, it seems like Craft would be an Int based skill, and a class skill for Rogues, Artificers, Runepriests, and I dunno, maybe Bards?

That class list seems to small, and is basically based entirely on fluff. I don't know if Int is a good choice or how I should pick what classes I allow. Can anyone give me some advice?

[Geiger Counter]

if its simple enough repair, say as complicated as applying enough duct tape there is no skill check required, it's like having them roll a d20 to breath.

[Zaq]

4e is much less flexible with what skills you can take than 3.5 is. Most characters only get 3 or 4 skills to train, and while I can see one or two characters taking it, for the most part it seems like it'd be ignored.

I do know that there's at least one martial practice that lets you fix something that's broken (at least temporarily), so maybe that could be some kind of guide? Honestly, I don't see an issue with keeping it as it is. In 3.5, you could afford to occasionally chuck a few skill points into Craft, but in 4e, that has a much higher opportunity cost. I don't see it working out.

If you frequently need to fix something, maybe treating it as a skill challenge (and letting the PCs explain why X skill works on Y task) is in order?

Oh, and while I understand that your issues go beyond a single example, if you don't like Thievery fixing a broken bridle, I'd say that either Athletics (it's tied to riding, so someone who knows how to ride would know how to deal with riding equipment) or Streetwise (sure, it's primarily for gathering info and being talky, but it could easily be expanded to include common sense and knowledge of odd jobs) could fit the bill.

Basically, I can't see any player giving up Arcana or Insight for Craft. If there are several such players in your group, go for it, but in a vacuum I think that this would mostly end up being ignored.

[Kylarra]

I'd just have each player get one free "subset" of craft for certain items as it relates to their background and if they want to have more they either burn feats or skill slots on it.

[Doug Lampert]

if its simple enough repair, say as complicated as applying enough duct tape there is no skill check required, it's like having them roll a d20 to breath.

Or make an ability check.
Dex for anything modestly complicated physically, Int for intricate things, Str or Con for digging a ditch.

For something that's actually relevant it's a skill challenge using easy ability checks. Simple.

[kieza]

I'd just have each player get one free "subset" of craft for certain items as it relates to their background and if they want to have more they either burn feats or skill slots on it.

This. Generally in my games, each character gets one mundane craft or profession. When they need to make a check, they roll 1/2 level + 5 (training) + the most applicable ability score. So, a blacksmith rolling to make something is using STR, but uses WIS or INT when appraising someone's work or looking for a weak spot.

It's a simple solution. I've had people play blacksmiths, forgers, lawyers, and even some academics using it.

If you want to add in something else, consider letting players with craft skills create minor magic items: a blacksmith could make the basic +X Magic weapons as though he could use Enchant Magic Item.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Important question: Why is it important to roll a Craft Skill?

If it is as important to the adventure as disabling a trap, killing a monster, or seducing a noblewoman then by all means roll for it. If it isn't, then why bother rolling?

So far it seems like you have done fine with Skill selections. If you need some variance:

Spoiler

Show

Dungeoneering is for fixing walls and other dungeon fixtures. For this sort of repair (and even construction) it's more important to know how everything is supposed to go together than having the muscles to do it properly.

Nature is good for "survival repairs" like leatherworking and the like. Use it to construct a basic shelter, fix a broken bridle, etc.

Thievery is really appropriate for anything that requires fine mechanical skills. It's a DEX check and for fine work it is almost more important to have steady hands than anything else.

However, if it is simply a question of verisimilitude ask yourself - when does someone who devotes their life to combat training and survival find the time to learn more than basic Craft skills? A Fighter can do field maintenance on his own weapons, sure, but does he really have the time to learn the intricacies of fine metalworking much less the proper care and maintenance of a forge? These sorts of projects are best suited to people who have devoted years - if not decades - of their life practicing this single craft. This is why actual knights had teams of skilled craftsmen to make them ready for battle instead of dong everything themselves.

If your Players just want to have a Craft Skill for flavor's sake, then do what Kylarra suggests. If they want to use Craft then you can either roll off of the Knowledge Check DC table (DC 10 for a simple repair, DC 20 to make a simple object, DC 25 for anything more intricate) or just say "OK, you do it."

[ericgrau]

Even in 3.5 craft was an NPC skill. Anything worth anything isn't worth your time neither to make nor repair. You were better off buying new ones than waiting several weeks for anything with more than a trivial cost. I say good riddance. IIRC 4e does make a mention of putting craft/profession/perform into your backstory if you want it, since that and pre-reqs were all they were ever good for anyway. For simple repairs I agree with others: allow anyone to do it without a check.

Once you give craft full skill status you're making the PC pay the same and have the same chance of failure on craft(fletcher) as arcana. Which means it's a horrible waste and we're back to being better off eliminating the skill. At the very least make the DCs low. DC 10 for simple means your average Joe has a 50:50 chance of failure. That's not simple. Making fixing fancy full plate as hard as knowing about a great wyrm is also quite silly and expensive waste of a skill... to blow a major resource and be told "sorry, you rolled too low to do your trivial flavor thing, you don't even get that."

[tcrudisi]

Important question: Why is it important to roll to a Craft Skill?

+1. Very well said.

I have always handled it with either a, "It takes you a short amount of time, but you are able to do it with no roll" or, if it was incredibly complex then I used a skill challenge (4 before 2, easy/normal dc's).

[gurban]

If it is simple crafting, they can just do it. If it is more complex, or more grandiose in scale, ie prepare the village for zombie invasion, then I like to make a skill challenge out of it. In my skill challenges, every player has to contribute. We roll initiative, highest goes first then clockwise around the table. I hand over almost all control of the narrative to the PCs. Almost all skills can be shoehorned in, if the player can make it plausible or reasonable. Each player can only use a skill once, and they can't use the same skill as the player previous to them used. Action point rerolls. I figure if you can earn an AP (via milestone) during a skill challenge, you should be able to spend them as well. Also, be explicit about what the goal of the skill challenge is, it will help define the narrative.

Example; Village preparation for zombie invasion;
Rogue; Streetwise, can find cache of building materials or best possible layout for defenses
Bard; Diplomacy to rally PCs and villagers and keep them organized
Wizard; History; recall previous invasion scenarios and the types of defenses that won or lost the day.
Fighter; athletics or endurance, build stone wall in manner put forth by wizard

If you have decent players, or one good one to take the lead, this usually goes pretty well.

[Katana_Geldar]

Make is similar to Mechanics in SWSE, in that you may only use it trained, and there you are.

I actually want to make the skills system ally more with SWSE, like when your INt mod goes up, you get more skills.

[Kurald Galain]

Hey all. Something that has come up over and over in my 4e games and players have complained about on two separate occasions (these are players without knowledge of previous editions, so that's not where it's coming from) is the lack of a skill related to putting things back together.

Well, it's really very simple. Create a new skill called Craft. I would personally base it on dexterity, although intelligence is also a reasonable choice. Treat it like any other skill, and add it to the class list of e.g. rogues, wizards, bards, and maybe a few others.

That's all it takes. Players who don't understand why, or don't want it, can simply ignore it. Players who like it can take it easily, and find ways to use it. Problem solved, and this is so simple that it won't break game balance at all.

And yes, Craft is a task that commonly comes up (at least in my games, too) that 4E doesn't have rules for. The other is Perform (same procedure as above, except base on charisma). It clearly doesn't come up in all campaigns because some people don't see the point of those skills, but if you do, then adding them is as easy as pie.

[Kaun]

Yeah i have yet to see the point in re adding craft skills to 4e.

If my players want to make mundane items i just let them do it, as long as they have the time and resorces.

If they are trying to do it in a stressfull situation i make them roll to figure out how long it takes them to do it.

It seems to work fine in most situations.

[WinWin]

There are rituals that cover this sort of thing. I think there are Martial Practices that cover heroic forging and repair.

[Oracle_Hunter]

And yes, Craft is a task that commonly comes up (at least in my games, too) that 4E doesn't have rules for. The other is Perform (same procedure as above, except base on charisma). It clearly doesn't come up in all campaigns because some people don't see the point of those skills, but if you do, then adding them is as easy as pie.

I actually came up with a Perform Skill for 4E back in the day.

Re-posted for easy reading:

Spoiler

Show

First, to separate out skills that better cover some types of performance:

Dance = Acrobatics
Grace, flexibility, and coordination are far more important in being a good dancer than beauty and personality, so lets use a DEX-based skill that does just that. You can set out DCs for various dance steps (perhaps a History check to see if you recall a given style), with people being appropriately impressed by the difficulty of the steps.

Juggling/Stage Magic = Thievery
Has Sleight of Hand right there, and is DEX linked.

Oratory = Diplomacy
Oratory is about being convincing while speaking to a crowd - this skill exactly.

Acting = Bluff
A good actor can cause the watcher to believe they are the character they portray.

* * *

Now, we're down to singing and instruments. Excellent. Now, you can divide up Sing and the various instrument "types" ('cause someone good at Piano can play a Pipe Organ ) but I'll just divide this into Instruments (DEX) and Singing (CHA). They both use the same system, but I never did see how being pretty made you better at playing the guitar.

Spoiler

Show

Instruments (DEX) / Singing (CHA)
The skill to play a variety of instruments and to sing. This skill is commonly used by court musicians, oral historians, and wandering minstrels.

Someone trained in Perform has had formal coaching in the common instruments of the Realms and in control of their voice.

DCs
Common - DC 10
Advanced - DC 20
Expert - DC 25
With Flair DC +2
Original Composition DC +5

Explanation
Perform can be used to attempt songs of varying difficulty level.

Common Music could take the form of a drinking song, a hymn, or any tune which could be played by anyone with a modicum of talent or training. This type of music is one of the major sources of entertainment for the masses.

Advanced Music is best only attempted by talented performers. The subtleties of sound or the complexity of scansion can easily trip up the inexperienced, but when performed by a skilled musician, it can evoke strong emotions from the listener. Music performed at a royal court is typically Advanced Music

Expert Music is rarely heard, but awe-inspiring. Written by the greatest composers of all time, this music requires unbelievable control to pull off - any mistakes, and the song is ruined. Kings who hear of an Expert Performer in their realm often command a performance, so rarely do people of this skill appear.

Occasionally, a pair of Performers may wish to show up the other. In such a situation, a song may be performed With Flair - the musician in question attempts to perform the song in a particularly flamboyant fashion in order to impress the audience. Of course, doing so is a risky endevour - even a well known song can be ruined by a performer trying a bit too hard to impress the tavern wenches.

Sometimes, musicians attempt to write songs of their own. Creating a piece of music is time intensive and requires lots of trial and error; very often, the only way music can be perfected by trying it out in front of an audience. Performing an unfinished piece is more difficult than performing a tried-and-true piece of the equivalent class, but over time your original composition can become part of the common canon too!

(Note: You can make up rules for turning original compositions into canon songs if you'd like).