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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Background-Love of flexibility and Fiends

    The Aspect of the Fiend

    None underestimate the power of evil. It is everywhere and corrupts anything it can grasp. All know that it carries many forms....but how many? The Aspect of the Fiend understands that evil comes in unlimited forms. The Aspect of the Fiend uses these forms to accomplish any number of tasks.

    The Aspect of the Fiend
    HD: d8
    Skill Points: 2 + Int (2 + Int x4 at first level)
    Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis)

    Table: The Aspect of the Fiend
    {table]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Shapechanges/day|Shapechange duration
    1|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Fiendish Shapechange Fiendish power|3/day|1 min

    2|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    ||3/day|1 min

    3|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    ||4/day|2 min

    4|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    ||4/day|2 min

    5|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    ||4/day|3 min

    6|
    +4
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    ||5/day|3 min

    7|
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    ||5/day|4 min

    8|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    ||5/day|4 min

    9|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    ||6/day|5 min

    10|
    +7/+2
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    ||6/day|5 min

    11|
    +8/+3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    ||6/day|6 min

    12|
    +9/+4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    ||7/day|6 min

    13|
    +9/+4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    ||7/day|7 min

    14|
    +10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    ||7/day|7 min

    15|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    ||8/day|8 min

    16|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    ||8/day|8 min

    17|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    ||8/day|9 min

    18|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    ||9/day|9 min

    19|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    ||9/day|10 min

    20|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Fiendish Form|9/day|10 min
    [/table]


    Table: Fiendish choices
    {table]Level|Demon Shapechange Choices|Devil Shapechange choices|Devil Power|Demon Power
    1|Lemure|Mane|||
    2|Filth imp; imp; kalabon; nupperibo|Abyssal Maw; Abyssal Skulker; Dretch; Nashrou; Quasit|||
    3|Bloodbag imp; euphoric imp; legion devil|Abyssal Ravager; Rutterkin|||
    4|Spined devil; white abishai|Abyssal Eviscerator; EKolid; Guecubu; Skulvyn|||
    5|Bearded devil; black abishai; canomorph; marrash; narzugon; rejkar|Bar-Lgura; Jovoc; Nabassu, Juvenile|||
    6|Chain devil; steel devil|Babau;|||
    7|Amnizu; harvester devil; hellcat; pain devil|Armanite; Arrow Demon; Succubus; Zovvut|||
    8|Erinyes; red abishai; orthon|dybbuk; palrethee; shadow demon; yochlol|||
    9|Bone devil; |abyssal drake; bulezau; vrock;|||
    10|Adaru; Gathra, narzugon;|alkilith; bebilith; cerebrilith; chasme|||
    11|Assassin devil, barbed devil, pleasure devil|hezrou; retriever; wastrilith|||
    12|malebranche|ghour; lilitu|||
    13|Ice devil, infernal conflagration ooze, scyllan|glabrezu; jarilith|||
    14|Logokron, malebranche|blood fiend; kelvezu; nalfeshnee|||
    15|Xerfilstyx|nabassu; sibriex|||
    16|Ghargatula, horned devil|goristro|||
    17|Hellfire golem|klurichir; marilith; sorrowsworn|||
    18|Paeliryon|deathdrinker; myrmyxicus|||
    19|Hellfire engine|molydeus|||
    20|Pit Fiend|Balor|||[/table]

    Fiendish Shape Change (Ex)
    The Aspect of the Fiend is built around the Fiendish Shape Change which allows them to take the form of Fiends.
    At level one* and every level after an Aspect of the Fiend must choose the form of any monster from the Demon and Devil list (See Fiendish choices) Fiendish Shapechange list. Every fiendish choice is an nonunique creature.

    The shapechange functions like polymorph except noted: You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.

    You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
    The Fiendish Shapechange works likes shapechange except that the player can only change into monsters on their list and does not require a focus. (but includes the healing) *At level one an Aspect of the Fiend cannot change forms as a free action because they do not have multiple forms to shift into.

    Below has not had any further work
    Fiendish Form (Ex) (I think I did a poor job on the wording please give feedback)

    The Fiendish Form allows an Aspect of the Fiend to create a unique highly customizable Evil Outsider. The new unique fiend is an amalgamation of the best qualities of the other transformations that the Aspect possesses.

    The player takes the list of fiends they possess and picks which parts of them they will use for the following:

    The HD of the Fiend of ONE of the forms

    The Size from one of the forms (The type and subtype is Outsider, Evil)

    Speed and waves of movement from ONE of the forms

    AC: you the AC bonuses of one of your forms without including Dex

    BAB/Grapple: Accounting for changed size, Str, and other modifiers

    Attack/Full attack are lumped together though you can choose the attacks of any of the fiends forms you have.

    Space/Reach: May change through Special qualities and the like

    Special attacks: Limit of 6 with some worth 2 or 3 (trying to figure out how much each are worth)

    Special qualities: See Special attacks

    Spell like abilities: the player can select ONE set of spell like abilities from any of their forms

    Saves: choose one set from ONE of the fiends in your list

    Abilities: the stats may be picked individually but each base modifier cannot exceed +13


    IT NEEDS SO.. MUCH.. WORK!!. ANY FEEDBACK WILL BE HELPFUL. I beg for experienced players to tell me if how it might be broken.
    Last edited by Firebrand; 2011-02-24 at 06:13 PM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    --sorry if this sounds harsh, just trying to help--

    Before the first: You're making this class into a one trick pony, and one trick which is limited per day. Beyond the versatility of multiple fiends, it is still a one trick pony.

    Also, as written, the class engages in paradox: shapechange states "you lose your own supernatural abilities" thus depriving you of Fiendish Shapechange.

    First: just saying it can transform into an Evil Outsider "of CR equal to the Aspect's level" is recipe for disaster, you should list which forms are available at which level or unexpected abilities could end up overshadowing everyone, for example, turning into a Greater Barghest at level 5. And that's only using the SRD, who knows which evil outsiders could appear from other books? (Monster Manual II, I'm looking at you).
    By the way, does anything stop the Adept from turning into a fiendish red dragon? or a half fiend hill giant?

    Second: Where are class proficiencies, is it proficient with any armor? with any weapons?

    Third: All good saves? is there any rationale behind that?

    Fourth: Fiendish form mentions:
    • the HD of one of the forms, I don't see the relevance here, shapechange doesn't change your HD.
    • the AC bonus of one of the forms. That's awfully vague, does it include deflection bonuses from supernatural abilities? what about dodge bonuses form feats? You need to be more precise as to what it does obtain.
    • "BAB/Grapple: Accounting for changed size, Str, and other modifiers" What does "other modifiers refer to? again, be precise.
    • "Special attacks: Limit of 6 with some worth 2 or 3 (trying to figure out how much each are worth)" If you offer a list of possible forms this could be judged, as is it is terribly overpowered.
    • Spell like abilities: shapechange doesn't allow you to acquire spell-like abilities
    • Abilities: that'd be, for example Str 36, Dex 10, Con 10 , right?


    Suggestion:
    Spoiler
    Show
    You could separate possible shapes to be acquired in, lets say, six tiers, and give uses per day for the ten of them progressively. Example:

    {table]Level|Tier I|Tier II|Tier III|Tier IV|Tier V|Tier VI
    1|
    3
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    2|
    3
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    3|
    4
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    4|
    4
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    5|
    5
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    6|
    5
    |
    2
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    7|
    6
    |
    2
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    8|
    6
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    9|
    7
    |
    3
    |
    2
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    10|
    7
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -

    11|
    7
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -

    12|
    7
    |
    5
    |
    3
    |
    2
    |
    -
    |
    -

    13|
    7
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |
    1
    |
    -

    14|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    -

    15|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    3
    |
    2
    |
    -

    16|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |
    1

    17|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    1

    18|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    2

    19|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    2

    20|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    2
    [/table]


    Note: said it before, and will add to it: shapechange doesn't allow you to acquire spell-like abilities, should this class ability allow it it is horribly broken.
    Last edited by Land Outcast; 2011-02-22 at 12:44 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Firebrand's Avatar

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Land Outcast View Post
    --sorry if this sounds harsh, just trying to help--

    Before the first: You're making this class into a one trick pony, and one trick which is limited per day. Beyond the versatility of multiple fiends, it is still a one trick pony.

    Also, as written, the class engages in paradox: shapechange states "you lose your own supernatural abilities" thus depriving you of Fiendish Shapechange.

    First: just saying it can transform into an Evil Outsider "of CR equal to the Aspect's level" is recipe for disaster, you should list which forms are available at which level or unexpected abilities could end up overshadowing everyone, for example, turning into a Greater Barghest at level 5. And that's only using the SRD, who knows which evil outsiders could appear from other books? (Monster Manual II, I'm looking at you).
    By the way, does anything stop the Adept from turning into a fiendish red dragon? or a half fiend hill giant?

    Second: Where are class proficiencies, is it proficient with any armor? with any weapons?

    Third: All good saves? is there any rationale behind that?

    Fourth: Fiendish form mentions:
    • the HD of one of the forms, I don't see the relevance here, shapechange doesn't change your HD.
    • the AC bonus of one of the forms. That's awfully vague, does it include deflection bonuses from supernatural abilities? what about dodge bonuses form feats? You need to be more precise as to what it does obtain.
    • "BAB/Grapple: Accounting for changed size, Str, and other modifiers" What does "other modifiers refer to? again, be precise.
    • "Special attacks: Limit of 6 with some worth 2 or 3 (trying to figure out how much each are worth)" If you offer a list of possible forms this could be judged, as is it is terribly overpowered.
    • Spell like abilities: shapechange doesn't allow you to acquire spell-like abilities
    • Abilities: that'd be, for example Str 36, Dex 10, Con 10 , right?


    Suggestion:
    Spoiler
    Show
    You could separate possible shapes to be acquired in, lets say, six tiers, and give uses per day for the ten of them progressively. Example:

    {table]Level|Tier I|Tier II|Tier III|Tier IV|Tier V|Tier VI
    1|
    3
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    2|
    3
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    3|
    4
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    4|
    4
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    5|
    5
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    6|
    5
    |
    2
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    7|
    6
    |
    2
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    8|
    6
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    9|
    7
    |
    3
    |
    2
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    10|
    7
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |
    -
    |
    -
    |
    -

    11|
    7
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -

    12|
    7
    |
    5
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    -
    |
    -

    13|
    7
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |
    -
    |
    -

    14|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |
    1
    |
    -

    15|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    3
    |
    1
    |
    -

    16|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    3
    |
    2
    |
    -

    17|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    2
    |
    1

    18|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    1

    19|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    2

    20|
    7
    |
    6
    |
    5
    |
    4
    |
    3
    |
    2
    [/table]


    Note: said it before, and will add to it: shapechange doesn't allow you to acquire spell-like abilities, should this class ability allow it it is horribly broken.
    Thank you VERY VERY much for your feed back. I knew about some of the mistakes due to laziness, but there are countless other things that I will be able to look over due to your help. Thank you again (I need to get to bed)
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    I'll just post here now the links to the SRD for Evil Outsiders from the Monster Manual, for ease of reference.

    CR 1-3
    Spoiler
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    CR 4-6

    CR 7-9
    Spoiler
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    CR 10-12
    Spoiler
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    CR 13-15
    Spoiler
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    CR 16-20
    Spoiler
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    CR 16: Horned Devil
    CR 17: Marilith
    CR 20: Balor, Pit Fiend


    I belive that's all of them... (Note I'm not saying these CR groups correspond to the tiers I mentioned, it is just a tentative organization).

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Land Outcast View Post
    I'll just post here now the links to the SRD for Evil Outsiders from the Monster Manual, for ease of reference.

    CR 1-3
    Spoiler
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    CR 4-6

    CR 7-9
    Spoiler
    Show

    CR 10-12
    Spoiler
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    CR 13-15
    Spoiler
    Show

    CR 16-20
    Spoiler
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    CR 16: Horned Devil
    CR 17: Marilith
    CR 20: Balor, Pit Fiend


    I belive that's all of them... (Note I'm not saying these CR groups correspond to the tiers I mentioned, it is just a tentative organization).
    That is very generous. I will go and find all of the Demons and Devils I want to put up AND I have decided that at every level when they choose a new Demon or Devil form they get a permanent bonus (vary) that depends on their choice Demon-Powerful Devil-Tactical

    All good saves because they are harnessing the power of outsiders.....yeah.

    I'll get the proficiencies up
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    *breathes* Now the Really hard part begins.

    I think I need to let the shapechange give you the SPELL LIKE ABILITIES!!

    My argument:

    The class might become overpowered due to the spell like abilities, but it will be underpowered without them. Some of the transformations are BUILT around the spell like abilities like ....I don't know ICE DEVILS!? Even though I'll give them minor boosts when they aren't transformed to make them not a one trick pony I need to give them the spell like abilities or the class itself will almost definitely be worse than even a straight up fighter.

    Thank you for the feedback- future and past
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Well, you have to consider the fact that, according the the DMG, there are about four encounters in an adventuring day, and I've never seen a "standard" encounter that lasts more than four or five rounds. So really, limited uses per day isn't all that bad when the limits are so high. However, that very very empty "Special" table makes me a very sad boy. You might consider letting them take their forms off the Summon Monster lists based on level, and perhaps expand it a bit. But even then you're getting Blasphemy at-will if you allow SLAs by level 20, which is a pretty big thing.

    I'd give it some interesting little flavor abilities if nothing else, possibly using Malconvoker as inspiration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divide by Zero View Post
    Hulking Hurler can get something like (10^83)d6 damage, which is many orders of magnitude greater than the number of particles in the universe.
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    Current characters: None, looking for a game.


    Homebrew!


    Wow, it's been a while. Sorry for the unexplained absence!

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by mootoall View Post
    Well, you have to consider the fact that, according the the DMG, there are about four encounters in an adventuring day, and I've never seen a "standard" encounter that lasts more than four or five rounds. So really, limited uses per day isn't all that bad when the limits are so high. However, that very very empty "Special" table makes me a very sad boy. You might consider letting them take their forms off the Summon Monster lists based on level, and perhaps expand it a bit. But even then you're getting Blasphemy at-will if you allow SLAs by level 20, which is a pretty big thing.

    I'd give it some interesting little flavor abilities if nothing else, possibly using Malconvoker as inspiration.
    I was planning on making the "Special" table give you unique bonuses based on your Demon or Devil choice (e.g. Flight- 100 ft. (Average) (Demon) vs. 60 ft. (Good) (Devil)) make sense?

    Also Spell like abilities. "Blasphemy at-will" this is a good thing if you have evil party members they start chopping stuff up, but you also aren't doing anything else and you aren't healing. If THEY have a evil opponent then it doesn't work as well. A player that wants the others to have fun won't do it if they have party members that will be stunned by it. (debate for another time)

    I know that the Sp's are big but they are essential present to me something that shows that Sp's will easily ruin the fun (because anything can ruin the fun)

    Edit: How could Malconvoker be implemented (I very much like Malconvoker and hope one day to properly play one)

    Edit 2:
    Quote Originally Posted by Land Outcast View Post
    Abilities: that'd be, for example Str 36, Dex 10, Con 10 , right?
    Yes that is acceptable
    Last edited by Firebrand; 2011-02-22 at 07:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
    All good saves because they are harnessing the power of outsiders.....yeah.
    I could definitely see them needing an adamantine power of Will, and, perhaps, the resilience of stone, Fortitude enough to keep his body from being taken over, torn apart, or mutated by a chaos demon...

    But Reflex? really? I don't get it.

    And I belive it isn't a small factor that they have no ability requirement whatsoever... so, anyone can be a demon binder, it is that easy...
    Also Spell like abilities. "Blasphemy at-will" this is a good thing if you have evil party members they start chopping stuff up, but you also aren't doing anything else and you aren't healing.
    Well, you are a demon binder, chances are that you will have evil part members chopping stuf up.

    -------------------------------------

    Besides, now that mootoall mentioned it, unless you severely restrict uses of shapechange (to even less uses than I presented in the tentative table), the character will be oberpowered:
    effectively, combat-wise, he will be a fiend... the reason why fiends have high LA (when they have it) is because of their combat prowess; if you have a character who can turn into a fiend more times per day than there are combats, he will be overpowered for his level.

    --------------------------------------

    On spell like abilities: I'd like to expand on this, but not now. I still belive it to bee far too powerful.

    Note: a flavorful option would be to demand thet the Aspect devote himself either to Demons or Devils.

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Also, not to lay it on, but in the Shapechange choices table, you mixed up the demon and devil columns.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tygre View Post
    Also, not to lay it on, but in the Shapechange choices table, you mixed up the demon and devil columns.
    thank you for informing me....I got a lot to think about.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    It appears that I will be completely retooling the Aspect of the Fiend to instead of taking the forms of fiends will instead apply the power of multiple fiends at once. They will gain powers ranked from 1-6 with the REALLY powerful powers being in a totally different category.
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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebrand View Post
    It appears that I will be completely retooling the Aspect of the Fiend to instead of taking the forms of fiends will instead apply the power of multiple fiends at once. They will gain powers ranked from 1-6 with the REALLY powerful powers being in a totally different category.
    Ok, I'll be waiting to see how you plan to implement it... I'll comment if possible

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    Default Re: Aspect of the Fiend (D&D 3.5 Base class) Please help with balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Land Outcast View Post
    Ok, I'll be waiting to see how you plan to implement it... I'll comment if possible
    It...will....take.....SO MUCH TIME!!! (thank you for any commentary you can offer when I begin editing again)
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