Cohort gains template, lose cohort!??

[NeverSleep]

So through story and RP, my cohort is gaining a were-template.

Problem is that it raises his ECL by 4 levels to 2 above my own level.

My DM thinks this means that he may not be wanting to follow me around anymore.

Can you guys give me some thoughts on this.

First should he, or shouldn't he stay... maybe as equal partner or something?

Second, feel free to back up your arguments with sources, rule quotes, etc, as I would like to be able to convince him to let me keep this cohort.

Thanks.

[Eurus]

Well he couldn't be a cohort anymore. That means that if he stays, he'd be an NPC. So it's really up to the DM.

[Corrik]

What is your alignment?

[Necro_EX]

Hrm...well, to be technical about it, the ruling is that you recruit the cohort based on your leadership score, and I don't recall anything specific about them acquiring templates that up their levels. The way I'd rule it would be that he'd stay, depending on his personality and the effects of the template on your relationship, since you've already recruited him. It just seems arbitrary for the NPC to say "Oh, damn...looks like I'm a little stronger than you now, guess I'll be taking my leave now."

If he does leave though, you'll just get a new cohort, yeah?

[GoatBoy]

Might depend on his class levels.

A wizard who gains the werewolf template might lose the ability to cast spells while in hybrid form, and certainly can't cast in wolf form. So in that case, the LA isn't much of a bonus.

Perhaps try to convince your DM that he isn't TOO much more powerful, or maybe the DM would play him while he is in his alternate form. Not to attack the party, but not to necessarily go after the ideal target.

Needless to say, the cohort should stop gaining levels until you have reached a level where he is an appropriate level in relation to you.

Unless your DM has something very specific in mind in terms of challenge, or is a stickler for challenge ratings, I would guess you could keep the cohort if you are willing to make any of the concessions above. Just try not to break the game.

Oh, and perhaps werewolf is a bad example, since werewolves are supposed to always be evil. You could also argue that your cohort's opinion toward you hasn't changed if the alignment of the were creature is close enough to his original alignment.

[Corrik]

Might depend on his class levels.

Oh, and perhaps werewolf is a bad example, since werewolves are supposed to always be evil.

OHHH I see how it is! So just cause he transforms during the full moon he's got to be an evil monster huh!? Phhhh man, and in this day and age.

[Dusk Eclipse]

OHHH I see how it is! So just cause he transforms during the full moon he's got to be an evil monster huh!? Phhhh man, and in this day and age.

Err by RAW yes, afflicted lycanthropes change alignment the first time they make an involuntary transformation, and wolves become CE.

Having said that, I think that is arbitrary and quite stupid.

[LordBlades]

Err by RAW yes, afflicted lycanthropes change alignment the first time they make an involuntary transformation, and wolves become CE.

Having said that, I think that is arbitrary and quite stupid.

+1

Any effects that forces a player to change the personality of his character is a big NO in my book.

[Last Laugh]

OHHH I see how it is! So just cause he transforms during the full moon he's got to be an evil monster huh!? Phhhh man, and in this day and age.

Next they'll be saying zombies are evil! They can't even think for themselves!!

[term1nally s1ck]

Changing the natural urges of someone to killing and maiming is generally a shift in alignment.

[druid91]

Err by RAW yes, afflicted lycanthropes change alignment the first time they make an involuntary transformation, and wolves become CE.

Having said that, I think that is arbitrary and quite stupid.

Nitpick:

It's the first voluntary change that switches alignment, IIRC you can save to not switch for involuntary changes.

You have a curse? It can corrupt you.

You embrace that curse? It will corrupt you.

[Gnaeus]

Changing the natural urges of someone to killing and maiming is generally a shift in alignment.

Yeah, lucky thing that boars and tigers never have urges to kill or maim anyone.

[Frozen_Feet]

As per the feat, a Cohort can't be of a level higher than one below your own. Depending on the template, the DM has two ways of going about it:

One, turn the Cohort to an ordinary NPC. You could try to get him back once your character level and Leadership score allow. Or, you could just get a new Cohort.

Second, say the Cohort can't acquire XP or rise in levels before your ECL is at least two above his.

I'd say cut your losses and play along with your GM. What you need a were-creature Cohort for anyway?

[WarKitty]

As per the feat, a Cohort can't be of a level higher than one below your own. Depending on the template, the DM has two ways of going about it:

One, turn the Cohort to an ordinary NPC. You could try to get him back once your character level and Leadership score allow. Or, you could just get a new Cohort.

Second, say the Cohort can't acquire XP or rise in levels before your ECL is at least two above his.

I'd say cut your losses and play along with your GM. What you need a were-creature Cohort for anyway?

It sounded more to me like they had the cohort along with the party, and somehow he got bitten by a lycanthrope and failed his save. What's the cohort's alignment anyway? If he's any sort of lawful or good alignment, it would seem to me that he'd want to get rid of this curse as soon as possible, and then probably go back to the party.

[Baconated]

I think just RP the cohort thusly: While he IS physically more powerful than your character, he's not trained to use his newfound power, which makes him a danger to himself - i.e., he's likely to run off, lose control, and slaughter a farmer's family, earning him the wrath and ire of the countryside, ending with his execution by the king's guard.

playing it this way, he realizes that he's better off staying with your character, who can help him learn to use his power and mentor him in it.

The DM, if he's smart, can turn this into a future plot twist, where the cohort, after a time, feels confident in his abilities, betrays the party to a band of theives or something, steals a plot-sensitive item, and the party has to hunt down someone who knows their weaknesses and strengths.

Could make for a really good game.


As an aside: viewing wolves and boars and etc as evil is stupid. They're neutral if theyre not intelligent. Wargs are intelligent, so they ARE evil. Wolves (untrained, as well as uncontrolled zombies/skeletons, as well as oozes/puddings/etc) SHOULD be attacking anyone around them, bad guys included, not just the party.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

WotC specifically designed savage progressions for just this reason, to allow a character to gradually gain the additional 'levels' if they gain a template during play.

[Gnaeus]

As an aside: viewing wolves and boars and etc as evil is stupid. They're neutral if theyre not intelligent. Wargs are intelligent, so they ARE evil. Wolves (untrained, as well as uncontrolled zombies/skeletons, as well as oozes/puddings/etc) SHOULD be attacking anyone around them, bad guys included, not just the party.

You are almost there: Bears are good, Boars & Tigers are neutral, Rats & Wolves are evil. I agree with you on the stupid part, but making them all different alignments is really wierd. And if you have a really good dungeon, you can just infect all your criminals with wereboarism and wait for them to turn good.

[Erom]

Is it really the end of the world for the cohort to be "too high" for a little while? Just have him stop getting XP until you level up a bit, then all will be right again. I mean, I could see banning it if you were using it to exceed the level cap (getting to ECL 8 in an E6 game or something) but in a normal game it shouldn't be a problem to have a temporarily over-leveled cohort.

[potatocubed]

Second, say the Cohort can't acquire XP or rise in levels before your ECL is at least two above his.

Similarly, you could suggest that the cohort gets enough negative levels to bring them down to the right level, which then go away as you level up until you're all square again.

[Gullintanni]

Actually, DMG has rules on this. If you are level-drained or die, such that your cohort becomes a level that is incompatible with the Leadership feat, your cohort gains no further experience until such time as the Leader's experience surpasses that of the cohort by the required number of levels.

This is essentially the same situation in reverse. Rather than the PC losing power, the Cohort has gained power. Nevertheless, the correct RAW interpretation seems to be that you retain your cohort, but your cohort no longer gains experience.

[NeverSleep]

edit: for details

Main wiz5 incatrix1 chaotic nuetral transmutation specialist.

Cohort homebrew dragoon lv4 chaotic nuetral.

Playing in episodes with round robin DMs. All of the characters are put into roles as the story/plot unfolds. Think the TV show Quantum leap. Any player could be a villain, hero, bystander, etc in any episode. So no storyline continuity, can't search for cure, etc...

Got bit at end of an episode. Dm says he will become a natural lycanthrope for future episodes. Meaning he controls shifts among other things. Also party palladin is less likely to be smiting it all day. Should make for an easier role play. The group has enough dissonance amongst the group already. Don't need the righteous trying to smite my test subject.

Was considering a RP reason for my character to be studying him as a shapechanger and all, since he specializes in transmutation/shapeshifting himself. Cohort "Vance" would be protecting wiz so he can learn more about himself. Maybe they met while studying opposite disciplines, and while practicing with each other, transmuter discovers something odd about the way Vance receives certain transmutation spells or some-such. Wizard decides to specialize in transmutations and studies Vance constantly.

Thoughts?

[Baconated]

I will give more details when I get to a computer.

Main wiz5 incatrix1 chaotic nuetral transmutation specialist.

Cohort homebrew dragoon lv4 chaotic nuetral.

Playing in episodes, so no storyline continuity, can't search for cure, etc...

Got bit at end of episode. Dm says he will become a natural lycanthrope for future episodes. Meaning he controls shifts among other things. Also pally is less likely to be smiting it all day.

Was considering a fluff reason for my character to be studying him as a shapechanger and all. Cohort "Vance" would be protecting wiz so he can learn more about himself.

Thoughts?

If it's just that the cohort gains the ability to natural shapeshift, no alignment change, no loss of control, then ignore it. The cohort doesnt get xp till you outlevel him. He also shouldnt get full combat benefits till he meets the level req - have reduced hp or reduced damage or attacks/round.

If youre a Xmutation Spec, and he's a shapechanger, thatd be perfect for you to do in-character research on him, help him learn to control it better and over time, gain full control over it (coincidentally, this should ideally be at the time when you get enough xp/he gets enough xp that he can get the full benefit of the wearforms)