Tips for a Rogue/Monk?

[Titanium Fox]

Last week, I made a topic asking for reccomendations on items. My character worked out incredibly. She has the ability to go invisible once per day from the Tome of Battle. I also plan on taking Assassin's Stance once per day to give her another 2d6 of sneak attack.

But now here's my new question. I'm trying to optimize this out a little better. I'm currently Rogue 5/Monk 6. Ascetic Rogue is awesome by the way. Does anyone have any reccomendations for plotting her out from here to ECL 20? I was just considering ending at Rogue 5/Monk 15, but I'm convinced there is a better prestige class out there that I could utilize as well. Anyone have any thoughts?

[Telonius]

Last week, I made a topic asking for reccomendations on items. My character worked out incredibly. She has the ability to go invisible once per day from the Tome of Battle. I also plan on taking Assassin's Stance once per day to give her another 2d6 of sneak attack.

But now here's my new question. I'm trying to optimize this out a little better. I'm currently Rogue 5/Monk 6. Ascetic Rogue is awesome by the way. Does anyone have any reccomendations for plotting her out from here to ECL 20? I was just considering ending at Rogue 5/Monk 15, but I'm convinced there is a better prestige class out there that I could utilize as well. Anyone have any thoughts?

What sources are available? Is ToB still an option for the new character?

[Doc Roc]

Can I get a list of open sources, please, Fox?
Intended power level? Starting level? Group composition?

This too:

What are your stats, feats and skills? That's pretty important for picking up PrCs. Just taking dips in few more base classes could serve to improve your ability significantly. If you're using ToB, Swordsage would be a good pick, for example.

Dump your brain into my lap, in short.

[Frozen_Feet]

What are your stats, feats and skills? That's pretty important for picking up PrCs. Just taking dips in few more base classes could serve to improve your ability significantly. If you're using ToB, Swordsage would be a good pick, for example.

If you're just continuing one of the existing classes, I'd suggest to take Rogue over more Monk - how does Ascetic Rogue work again?

[Doc Roc]

What are your stats, feats and skills? That's pretty important for picking up PrCs. Just taking dips in few more base classes could serve to improve your ability significantly. If you're using ToB, Swordsage would be a good pick, for example.

If you're just continuing one of the existing classes, I'd suggest to take Rogue over more Monk - how does Ascetic Rogue work again?

Better than more monk levels.

[Titanium Fox]

Sorry bout that. The DM in that particular campaign is pretty lax with what he will allow. ToB is definitely still available, as is pretty much everything barring "excessive" splash book use (I'm at two: Complete Scoundrel and ToB, someone else in the campaign has 3 and the DM hasn't even shown a sign that we might be nearing a limit), and the BoEF.

Our party has no real major melee damage dealers, so I'm looking to fill that roll. Maybe not Min-Maxing, but still pretty highly optimized.

I don't have the character sheet on me at the moment... However I'll copy everything down once I get back to my place.

Ascetic Rogue lets Rogue Levels count towards Monk Fist Damage, and Monk Levels count towards sneak attack; no other abilites from either class stack though.

The DM also told me that since I've only played the character once and rolled her pretty hastily that if I want to re-assign a few of those levels that I've already placed or a feat or two, that's okay with him.

[Doc Roc]

Monk is, in a word, truly-god-awful. Is that a word? It's a word now.

There's five or six common builds, or we could just take you Factotum 20, maybe dip for true SA if needed, and grab Craven from Champions of Faintly-Bad-Acts.

[Titanium Fox]

Factotum20? Can't say I've ever heard of it.

As it stands, my character isn't doing too bad at 11. She dealt 77 damage on a flurry of blows (only hit twice) and one-shot one of the Elder Arrowhawks we were fighting in the Plane of Air. That ability to go invisible is saving my rear though, I'm the ONLY character in melee range. Flanking is a major no.

[Daftendirekt]

I will throw in my usual 2 cents when it comes to monks: Drunken Master, Fist of the Forest, and (if you're a hengeyokai, changeling, or other race that somehow has easy access to some sort of shapechanging) warshaper. Preferably all of them. DM and warshaper are in CWar, FotF is in CChamp.

Just one note: RAW, Drunken Master doesn't have that 'stacks with monk levels to determine speed/ac/damage' thing that every single other monk PrC has. However, I feel that that is a mistake (as did my DM when I played one). Point it out to your DM, and I'm sure he'll say that they stack.

Also, maybe grab Ascetic Stalker as well and get some CAdv ninja loving. Ghost Step, woooo!

[Doc Roc]

Factotum20? Can't say I've ever heard of it.

As it stands, my character isn't doing too bad at 11. She dealt 77 damage on a flurry of blows (only hit twice) and one-shot one of the Elder Arrowhawks we were fighting in the Plane of Air. That ability to go invisible is saving my rear though, I'm the ONLY character in melee range. Flanking is a major no.

77 at 11? Oh god. Okay, I'll try and shoot low.
I like rogue a lot more than I like monk. That's the basic take-away here. How do you feel about teleporational stabbies?

[Glimbur]

The Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil is worth considering. Despite the source it is not evil... but it would let you get something for your doubled-up evasion and you like invisibility so...

[Doc Roc]

Actually, this is basically a perfect place for the inimitable and fun Teflammar Shadowlord. You might need to get the shadow-walker template, but that isn't undoable, and can be bought off pretty painlessly. Alternatively, we can restructure things and go with the Orien-whatever-it-is or Crinti Shadow Marauder.

[Titanium Fox]

I'm also gonna throw a disclaimer that I'm relatively new to D&D. I've DMed one campaign and played in four; never really tried to optimize anything but a straight rogue. I am looking for my character sheet right now, I'll throw that up ASAP. Fist of the Forest looks fun. I definitely need to check out Shadowlord though.

[Doc Roc]

I'm also gonna throw a disclaimer that I'm relatively new to D&D. I've DMed one campaign and played in four; never really tried to optimize anything but a straight rogue. I am looking for my character sheet right now, I'll throw that up ASAP. Fist of the Forest looks fun. I definitely need to check out Shadowlord though.

Unapproachable East. Perhaps not the best choice, but a supremely charming one.

[Titanium Fox]

Okay, found it.

Akena Vileleap: Rogue 5 / Monk 6 (69 Hit Points)
12 Strength, 18 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 11 Intelligence, 16 Wisdom, 10 Charisma

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse, Ascetic Rogue, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Superior Unarmed Strike, "Cloak of Deception" (This is the manuver from ToB).

She's got 6d6 Sneak Attack. Each fist attack does 2d6 on it's own at the moment.

Items: Armband of Elusive Action, Boots of Sidestepping, Monk's Belt, Gloves of Dexterity +6

Like I said, as it stands, I am the only Melee Character.

[JaronK]

Note that the unarmed variant Swordsage from ToB basically IS a Rogue/Monk already, and is a lot more fun to play in general... though it lacks trapfinding. And Factotum is a better Rogue. So you might want to consider a Factotum/Unarmed Swordsage mix (they combine together WONDERFULLY) instead of a Rogue/Monk mix. Factotum 8 is the awesome level to shoot for, so consider Factotum 8/Unarmed Swordsage 3 (continuing in the latter indefinitely).

JaronK

[Frozen_Feet]

Some options from the SRD you could consider, if you decide looking through bazillion source books is too tiring. Not very optimized, but they wouldn't require rebuilding the character from the start - minor tweaks would be enough.

1) If Evil, consider Assassin. Seems like it would fit your character.

2) If Psionics are not a big boogeyman to you, you could swap one feat (Improved Disarm?) for Wild Talent and consider Psionic Fist. Due to Tashalatora, I rarely see anyone suggest or use it (Monk / Psiwar is the same thing and strictly superior), but it might suit you. Alternatively, you could try War Mind. Along with the feat swap, would only need minor reallocation of skillpoints.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm...if going mostly Rogue/Monk, I'd say 9 levels if really going for Invisible Fist, then the rest on Rogue, or dip into Factotum and/or unarmed Swordsage for it.

Monk is never recommended any more than 2 levels, 6 at the very least, but Invisible Fist is very good for what's worth (Blink for 1 round every 3 turns or so). Something like Monk 9 (strictly with Invisible Fist, and probably using the fighting styles to get better abilities) running off Int (with Dragon Magazine's Kung-Fu Genius or Champions of Valor's nifty Carmendine Monk feats)with 2 levels in Rogue and the rest in Factotum should make for a delicious Int-ensive build. Likewise, Monk 9/Rogue 2/Swordsage X/Shadow Sun Ninja might be useful, because you get pretty much all worthwhile Monk abilities, 11 levels worth of sneak attack plus Assassin's Stance on top of that, some minor healing and some abilities, but you progress your maneuvers as well which is very, very nice (and with that superb defense, even better).

If you decide to follow the ideas of the fellow posters and neglect going both Monk and Rogue, going mostly Factotum and Unarmed Swordsage, prepare to have a massive Int score and at least a decent Wis score, not to mention decent Dex and Constitution (for three stats adding AC, plus good amounts of HP). You also need to know when to cut each Factotum level to get the most of both classes.

@Jaron: I really don't find the "phenomenal" synergy between Factotum and Unarmed Swordsage. I do see it on Warblade, since both are slightly based on Int, but Factotum/unarmed Swordsage IMO is kinda mad, unless you find impressive ways to ignore Dex and Con. Having all three save counters eats up three of your ready slots, and unless you get Adaptive Style you'll be having huge troubles recovering all abilities, so you need at least decent stats on that one; furthermore, the loss of BAB on both sides means you'll depend on loads of burst attacks instead of a barrage of hits, something that you could reliably do with Swordsage using Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. Anything I'm missing?

[JaronK]

@Jaron: I really don't find the "phenomenal" synergy between Factotum and Unarmed Swordsage. I do see it on Warblade, since both are slightly based on Int, but Factotum/unarmed Swordsage IMO is kinda mad, unless you find impressive ways to ignore Dex and Con. Having all three save counters eats up three of your ready slots, and unless you get Adaptive Style you'll be having huge troubles recovering all abilities, so you need at least decent stats on that one; furthermore, the loss of BAB on both sides means you'll depend on loads of burst attacks instead of a barrage of hits, something that you could reliably do with Swordsage using Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. Anything I'm missing?

Cunning Surge + Standard Action Maneuvers = win.
Factotum 8 + Swordsage X = No BAB loss
Brains over brawn + Mighty throw line of maneuvers + Improved Trip = even more win
Factotum stealth + Shadow Hand stealth maneuvers = Impossible to catch
Brains over Brawn + Swordsage Init boosts = always go first

But as for the MAD issues, that's one reason I love using the Necropolitan template (usually with Lifesight for the amazing detection abilities). Now you don't need Con at all and can dump it, plus if a UA Variant Necromancer or Dread Necromancer does it you even get the solid Str and Dex boost and can now focus entirely on boosting Int (you don't really need charisma or wisdom for either class, just don't use wisdom save based maneuvers). You'd want a good starting Int and Dex of course, but you don't really need the other stats (you could throw some Wis in there if you want of course).

JaronK