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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    AngryDM recently posted an article suggesting that 4e failed to deal with the issue of the "15 minute workday", and suggested a few measures that might address the idea that the "15 minute workday" remains the optimal choice for the average adventuring party. More specifically:

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryDM
    1.Place a restriction on how many healing surges a PC can spend outside of encounters. For instance, a PC can only spend two healing surges at the end of a short rest and they cannot take another short rest until they’ve had another encounter first.

    2.In order to use their best abilities, the PCs need to build adrenaline or momentum or whatever you want to call it. Mechanically, it works like this: after an extended rest, a player only has access to one daily attack power – the lowest level one. After each encounter, during a short rest, he gains access to the next highest level one. If he has two powers of the same level, he can choose which one becomes available. The players can horde these powers or use them as they become available.
    I really enjoyed reading the article, and I thought much of what he suggests and proposes is quite sensible and well reasoned, so I thought I'd share it here. In particular I quite liked the suggetions he made in the quote above.

    To me, the first suggestion makes a fair amount of sense from a narrative standpoint and also with getting players to become more conscious of the resources available to them.

    Narratively, it makes sense that, at the end of an encounter, a character who has been knocked unconscious and hasn't been magically healed is not going to be in the same condition as one who, although they might have taken the same damage, has been filled with the radiant light of a god. It also poses the dilema of whether, once the post encounter short rest has taken place, some of the newly refreshed magical healing should be used on a heavily injured character. It also makes this choice more meaningful, as it could be the difference between a character dropping right away to a lucky critical swing, or a hidden trap, but they could also go the entire next encounter without suffering a serious injury, and the healing might be best served elsewhere.

    The second suggestion would probably be interesting to try, but might need some refinement. Although I like the idea that as the encounters continue, the players have less healing to draw upon, but more damage dealing capacity, becoming more desperate in their swings, and each injury begin to take its toll. The risk/reward balance is a compelling dynamic, which I think could be quite compelling. It would certainly need to be adjusted in games where each adventuring day consists of a few higher level encounters though. Maybe the Daily Powers could be unlocked at certain different levels of depletion of healing surges, representing a character being more reserved, as they haven't fully been drawn into the heart of battles, so they haven't as much adrenalin coursing through their systems.

    I've never yet actually come across the problem of my players taking advantage of the "15 minute workday", so the suggestions aren't quite as relevant to me as they could be. What do you guys think? Has it been a problem for you in 4e?

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    I'm not sure why the 15 minute workday is a problem. Different to the idea of conserving your powers and effectively turning all Dailies into Encounters, yes, but is that really such an issue? You can just balance your fights around that fact and continue on your merry quest. Narratively it's a little silly but that's hardly on the game, it's on the DM who's crafting the narrative, surely.

    While the ideas are interesting and probably not too bad all things considered, I'm not sure they're necessary. I find myself indifferent towards them.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Well....

    It is clear to me that the 4E ruleset encourages using your most powerful attacks in the first encounter, and then resting until they become available again. There are various haphazard patches in RAW that entirely fail to deal with this, and the only real solution is having a DM (or adventure) that outright vetos it.

    Of course, if you're playing with the right kind of people, this problem will never come up. A 15-minute workday is clear and obvious metagaming.

    Regarding ADM's suggestions - I don't see the point of the first. In my experience, characters only rarely need to spend more than two healing surges after an encounter, as long as there's a leader in the party. Also, this rule encourages PCs to pick a fight with something easy, so they can heal.
    (your own comment starts with "narratively, it makes sense that..." but 4E rules aren't based on narratively making sense in the first place, so that doesn't help)

    The second suggestion works, assuming a party of at least level 5, and assuming only combat encounters count towards "gaining" dailies. It is not generally the case, however, that "as the encounters continue, the players have less healing to draw upon". There are also certain classes for whom the lower-level dailies are more powerful than the higher ones.

    To throw out some other suggestions, there's random encounters. Simply put, if the PCs rest in a dangerous area, have them get attacked by whatever. Note that this can get old really quick, but it should get the message across that wherever the PCs are now, they cannot rest.

    Second, there's limited resources. The PCs are in the wilderness and have three food rations each. Every extended rest consumes one. That means they had better find their way back to civilization before their food runs out. This solution does go straight against 4E philosophy, and you'd have to ban some infinite-food-giving items, as well as change the starvation rules.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    I absolutely hate the idea of a "15 minute workday" (unless I still get paid for a full day ).

    Seriously, though. There are other ways of dealing with it. Time-sensitive storylines, for one.

    Another would be to find a group that likes to have their characters adventure from sunup to sundown (or reversed, if they're nocturnal types or drow). That's the kind of group I play in, and if anyone ever tried the "15 minute workday" approach, the rest of the group would have no sympathy as they walked away, and left that character behind.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    I've had some succes in a PbP using a 'scene' system instead of a 'day based' one, somewhat comparable to how time is tracked in WoD.

    In short, instead of replenishing hp, healing surges, Daily powers etc. when the characters sleep, it happens when a predefined scene or act of the story is finished - so these rewards are story-driven, and the PCs have a specific set of resources to get through each scene/act. This obviously does not work well with all types of scenarios - a sandbox game would probably be awkward with this, but for those action-packed, half-railroady games where the story of the game progresses in a series of events, it can work great.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Is this thread about how to prevent the 15-minute workday from happening again for 4th edition?
    Most players will use extended rests after the 1st encounter because they generally feel that they only can survive if they have access to their most powerful abilities. It's important then to make the first battles not so difficult that the players will think that they can only win if they use their most deadliest techniques, and should conserve at least some of their superjuice for the more difficult one that lay ahead. Of course, there should also be a primarily ingame reason for why they should keep on instead of going to regenerate their superpowers in safety away.
    Various combats and dramatic action scenes that culminates towards the climatic and interesting encounter the players want to reach without going around sleeping inbetween for whatever reason (just because they can, or out of necessity) is still the one thing that only a gm can do.

    4th edition has just made it that without your dailies, you'd still be at somewhat 80% efficiency (more or less, and not an exact number). But it's the players who decide if they're happy with being at (theoretical) 80% of their potential.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    When I played 4e I never used dailies first encounter, or second encounter, or until the Obvious Boss Battle and sometimes not then (it was over too quick).

    Then again I hate the 15 minute workday in game and I've been known to go orc hunting (in 3.0) with a crossbow as a Lv 1 wizard because one of the fighters had walked into too many traps (the hallway is trapped and leads in a circle, you don't need to walk all the way down it) and the fighters were resting. So I might be abnormal.

    Most players I know will retreat and rest before a boss battle... last two times they did that I fixed things by either having the boss gather more minions (because he had minions that they saw returning in the night; and I just threw in an extra elite mook), or had the bad guy skip town with most of the loot. That and random encounters and you usually don't have the problem barring 3.5 Rope Trick (for example I've never seen it come up in 4e; then again I've seen all of one hard encounter in 4e that wasn't the DM throwing upper paragon creatures at lower heroic characters on a regular basis).
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    The 15 minute workday has been plaguing D&D since its inception. 4e took an axe to its knees by nerfing the hell out of long-distance teleportation magic, but I'm still convinced that the only way to really combat it to enforce time limits on dungeon crawls and impose serious consequences for taking a 6 hour break halfway through.

    PCs cleaning out a goblin burrow, and are hunting the bounty on the chieftan's head? If they leave, the goblins are going to realize they are no match, pack up all their treasure, and move somewhere else. Tracking them is no good either, as the goblins have a six hour head start. All that gold and XP is gone, and when the PCs slink back to their patron to report, he chastises them for being so stupid; when the goblins strike again (and they will), they're sure to be smarter, stronger, and better prepared to repel invaders.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    But... You need to wait twelve hours between extended rests. It's the Twelve-hour, fifteen minute workday now.

    I mean, yeah, it's still a fifteen minute workday, just that you say "Okay, we'll do nothing for twelve hours," before you say, "And now we're sleeping! Woot-woot action point! Woot-woot dailies!" And I know that saying it's the DM's job to make something happen during those twelve hours doesn't address the problem, but the alternative is designating a character as Leeroy Jenkins who constantly starts encounters when everyone else wants to take an extended rest after twelve hours of doing nothing because they stepped on a worm.

    That said, I have a huge problem where I still have my dailies unused when it's time to extended rest. I don't do well with using limited resources.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Is there any system that relies heavily on resource management that doesn't encourage a 15 minute workday?

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Personally I think the main thing that encourages the 15-minute workday in 4th ed is the Healing Surges. While theoretically designed to allow parties to venture further in to the dungeons, I've found that they instead place a limit on how far a group can go without stopping to rest. Generally about five encounters in my experience.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    The job of a rule set is to be free of holes and quirks, and to provide the DM with the tools needed to keep the game balanced, without resorting to a fix that is either unfair (DM fiat), or that damages the game (or part of it) in some other way.

    It is absolutely not the job of the ruleset to deliberately invalidate certain strategies for the sole reason that certain people find them distasteful. Only to ensure that the strategy can be countered fairly and safely.

    As far as I can tell, 4e's handling of the fifteen minute workday is pretty decent.

    The actual 15-minute workday problem (as the 4e designers seem to have correctly identified) is that in previous editions, certain abilities available to characters basically made it impossible to fairly counter the strategy without limiting the range of scenarios possible (a relatively static dungeon with a forgiving time limit, for example, should be an entirely legitimate adventure. In 3e, it wasn't).

    The 15-minute workday doesn't give an advantage because of a hole or a quirk in the rules -- even in the real world, it's generally considered helpful to be well-rested when you go into a fight. So the fact that it also works within the rules is not actually a problem. Making too much effort to prevent it from working within the system would come across as entirely arbitrary to the players.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2011-02-24 at 07:33 AM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    But... You need to wait twelve hours between extended rests. It's the Twelve-hour, fifteen minute workday now.
    Exactly.

    I think Angry DM is coming at this from the wrong angle. What, exactly, is he trying to fix? Any time you have a resource management game where recharging is possible it is always optimal to recharge before your next Encounter. Whether that recharge is in 6 hours, 12 hours, or a week, that's still going to be the strategy. The usual check - time pressure - is explicitly discounted by Angry DM as being a sort of Rule Zero cheat. Bizarre.

    Angry DM has decided instead to propose Grinding as a fix: unless you have X Encounters per day you cannot use your character to his full potential. Now, instead of allowing Players to rest, he will encourage them to find easy Encounters before hitting the Big Boss. I think the cure here is worse than the disease.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    The job of a rule set is to be free of holes and quirks, and to provide the DM with the tools needed to keep the game balanced, without resorting to a fix that is either unfair (DM fiat), or that damages the game (or part of it) in some other way.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    As far as I can tell, 4e's handling of the fifteen minute workday is absolutely spot on.
    Not agreed. The 4e devs gave PCs an action point after every second encounter, which would have given 4e players a reason to not extendo-rest after every fight possible. Except that then they went ahead and gave PCs an action point after each and every extendo-rest.

    Anywho, the five minute workday hasn't been a problem so far in my group, though we're all aware of the phenomenon. But I don't like depending on "don't be a ****" to have a fun game, and like you say it's the ruleset's job to be free of holes. So here's the simple house rule I've been using:

    PCs don't get an AP after extended rests, but they earn one after every encounter. I'm not sure that, tactically speaking, it provides enough of a reason to keep fighting, but I like it. And as a fringe benefit, we never start a session with the "Was last session's encounter an even one, or an odd one? Did I spend an AP last time or not?" shenanigans anymore. It sounds silly, but it was so annoying.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    I still don't understand the concept of how people run into the 15 minute workday with 4e. If you have players that are trying to rest after every encounter to get back their dailies because they go nova every fight, throw encounters at them, don't make that an option.

    If you can't do the above because players are out of all resources after every encounter then maybe you should take a look at what you are throwing at them in the first place.

    Encounter Powers are meant to be used a key and useful points in a fight. Dailies are the fall back "OH SHI-" powers, as in Hi, I'm about to die. If they are wasting their dailies and wanting to get them back to make every encounter a joke, punish them for their poor planning.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelRogue View Post
    I've had some succes in a PbP using a 'scene' system instead of a 'day based' one, somewhat comparable to how time is tracked in WoD.

    In short, instead of replenishing hp, healing surges, Daily powers etc. when the characters sleep, it happens when a predefined scene or act of the story is finished - so these rewards are story-driven, and the PCs have a specific set of resources to get through each scene/act. This obviously does not work well with all types of scenarios - a sandbox game would probably be awkward with this, but for those action-packed, half-railroady games where the story of the game progresses in a series of events, it can work great.
    This is definitely the way to go. In fact, for quite a while during 4e's development, dailies were based off of narrative time (in fact encounter powers are an artifact of this, as evidenced by them being based off narrative time but dailies being based off of real time). Unfortunately the narrative model was scrapped due to being somewhat unfriendly for dungeon crawls.

    Putting it back in is fairly simple, even in sandbox games. Sandbox games still have structure, they just have more player freedom for what that structure contains. For example, in the Dark Sun game I'm running, things started off fairly constrained, with the players starting play as gladatorial slaves, and then escaping when a beast got loose and destroyed part of the wall of the arena. Their three challenges in the arena, as well as the skill challenge to shake off pursuers as they escaped were all individual encounters in an act.

    Afterwards they decided to serve as guards for a merchant caravan, since it seemed like an easy way to get out of town. Again, the journey was a single act. They needed employment in their new city, and decided to work in service of the city as mercenaries. They've currently been sent out into the field to test themselves, which is another act.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by VirOath View Post
    I still don't understand the concept of how people run into the 15 minute workday with 4e. If you have players that are trying to rest after every encounter to get back their dailies because they go nova every fight, throw encounters at them, don't make that an option.
    Well, there you've answered your own question. If you do make that an option (because not all DMs know not to) then it is automatically the best option.

    Dailies are the fall back "OH SHI-" powers, as in Hi, I'm about to die.
    Really? What about the first-turn opening nova?
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    I think Angry DM is coming at this from the wrong angle. What, exactly, is he trying to fix?
    I'm not sure he's trying to "fix" anything, but rather address what was one of the intended aims of the 4e system, i.e. to make the idea of a 15 minute workday less viable than actually going on and continuing with the encounters. As it stands, in a purely mechanical and dungeon crawl based sense, the 15 minute or 12 hour and 15 minute workday is still the most efficient way to deal with encounters.

    I don't think he meant it to seems like the system as is, was broken, but I may have misrepresented it. I think he was just presenting a system, that regardless of any DM interaction or Campaign setting, encourages the players to push forward.

    As I said, I've never come across that problem with any game I've played, even in the absence of time pressure, with Dailies being reserved for situations like

    Quote Originally Posted by VirOath View Post
    Dailies are the fall back "OH SHI-" powers, as in Hi, I'm about to die.
    I don't think AngryDM was saying there aren't other solutions out there, as its easily fixed by DM fiat, but he was merely looking at some of the ways the system could have addressed one of the major problems with the previous system, within its core mechanics. As opposed to going back to the age old excuse of many systems of making it the DMs problem. He's not necessarily saying the system is wrong, just that wizards didn't address what it said it would (But how's that any different from normal ammirite? ) and suggesting some ways they could have done so.

    I'd be interested generally in seeing how it changes the flow of the system as it stands, but, yeah, its not necessary.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    "You're not tired yet."

    Or just play Dark Sun

    "Okay, you can rest after only being up for 10 minutes...

    Lose another survival day."

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Still reading, but I actually agree with this:

    The thing is: death is not as big a danger as it used to be. It takes a lot to kill a PC. There are no one-shot or even two-shot monsters out there barring some very high crits. As long as a PC isn’t ganged up on, it’ll take two or three rounds just to drop him. The death save mechanic guarantees that the downed PC will live for three rounds at least. Because the system is designed around an average combat length of five rounds, death just isn’t a huge issue.
    The DMG actually says that monsters won't attack downed enemies, which is the only way around the "save vs death" rule: you take so much damage that you die regardless. I've only had this happened to me twice in 4E, the first was with a adult red dragon, and the second was a solo campaign.

    Death is cheap though, which is why I have considered changing it to more like 3.5 where there is a difference between Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurection.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    I have a huge issue with death not being a threat.
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    I haven't actually read that rule, but if by 'downed' it means 'below 0 HP' That's something I can live with. At 0 HP, they're not dead yet, just unconscious, and what creature, with any sort of intelligence and/or common sense, wouldn't take advantage of that? Yes, I may be killing more characters like that, but death needs to be a very real possibility for characters. This, "Oh, it's ok. Death is only temporary, we'll get you rezzed right back up, even though you're only level 1" crap is just that. Crap. If there's no chance of failure, where's the glory in succeeding? If the heroes automatically win, why even bother to have adventures? That game would play something like:

    DM: "Roll up a level 30 character."
    Players: "Why level 30?"
    DM: "Because you're going to win at everything, forever, anyways, we'll just skip the middle part."

    *facepalm*

    Seriously? Death should always be looming just over the next hill, or around the next corner. Players should fear for their characters' lives, at the very least, once or twice each session. If they die, so be it. Not every thorpe, village, or even town, will have a priest capable of resurrecting them.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    2.In order to use their best abilities, the PCs need to build adrenaline or momentum or whatever you want to call it. Mechanically, it works like this: after an extended rest, a player only has access to one daily attack power – the lowest level one. After each encounter, during a short rest, he gains access to the next highest level one. If he has two powers of the same level, he can choose which one becomes available. The players can horde these powers or use them as they become available.
    SERIOUSLY?
    THIS is the best thing they came up with?

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    A little thought on the matter:
    a 15 minutes workday is quite realistic.

    Let's supppose this scenario:
    1) your task is not time sensitive.
    2) You know you have to face several obstacles, you don't know how many.
    3) After a fight, you end up really winded. (in game terms, no more dailies).
    4) You have the choice to keep moving (next encounter) or to rest.

    What do you do?
    Of course you rest.

    Let's remove condition 1). Let's say you have to find a cure for a poison before the patient's demise. Now, ready or not, you have to go through all encounters in the same day.
    Easy.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    2.In order to use their best abilities, the PCs need to build adrenaline or momentum or whatever you want to call it. Mechanically, it works like this: after an extended rest, a player only has access to one daily attack power – the lowest level one. After each encounter, during a short rest, he gains access to the next highest level one. If he has two powers of the same level, he can choose which one becomes available. The players can horde these powers or use them as they become available.
    What about classes that just don't go through healing surges? I played an Artificer in a recent game who, in a really tough encounter, would use 2 surges. Most of the time, he didn't use any. (Something about big meat shields and melee strikers keeping the enemies off me.)

    To make this idea worse, my highest level daily was "heal bot" that gave bonuses when allies spent a surge next to it and could revive fallen allies. Under this system, I would be a lot worse at one thing a Leader is supposed to do (heal) because I would almost never get access to my best healing power.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    I haven't actually read that rule...
    It goes like this:

    When you drop below 0 hp, you're down. You fall over and start making death saves, which are (barring modifiers) a straight d20 roll.

    11+, congrats, you don't die.
    20, super-grats! You have a surge of heroism, burn a healing surge and can get up on your own. (If you have any surges left, which my players rarely do.)
    10 or lower, you fail.

    Fail three saves and you croak. That gives you about six rounds of bleeding out, with a tiny chance that you'll get up on your own. I never found any rules for ceasing making death saves, so my group always assumed that you stabilised at 1 hp once the encounter ended.

    In a party with no healing (or no healing left), this means that it's a race to end the encounter before your comrade bleeds out. You can't use Heal to stabilise them, you can't use powers, you have to go all out and win right now. I've had last minute rescues, last-minute failures, and on one occasion a barbarian get up on his own and turn a certain TPK into a narrow victory for the party. It adds a real something to the rest of the combat.

    Oh, and if you reach minus your Con score in hp, you die also. This happens more often than you might think, especially when people are unconscious and also on fire.

    4e's not as dangerous as other forms of D&D, no, but death is still very possible.
    Last edited by potatocubed; 2011-02-24 at 07:06 AM.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    I have one problem with this discussion:

    The 15 Minutes day makes sense. Narrativly. Rested troups should be better than those who have fought the whole day.

    The problem with the 15 minutes day was never that you have your best options only at the beginning of the day. It was the point that you are unable to regain even moderate options during your fights. So that it is more efficient to use all your options in as less fights as you can. Instead of having a descending and floating exhaustion status you only have the 2 status rested / not rested.

    The problem was that there wasn't an alternative option to "resting the next hours". It is easy for a DM to come up with time critical tasks, but if the players does not feel like they are able to resolve them it is pointless. They will simple say: "we know it is critical - but we can't."

    So what is needed is a 3rd level: A "maybe we can resolve this issue, even if it will be harder than if we would have had a night in the next tavern"

    Only this makes time critical tasks available. 4E does have those 3rd exhaustion status by saying that you are able to take a short rest. And of course some actions that you can take are no longer bound on your "options per day" counter. For a higher level group in previous editions, teleport is so much better than mundane movement that it is better to rest 8 hours and regain a teleport spell than to ride on horseback.

    That's no longer true for 4E - you do not have to rest for this teleport, you just have to provide the neccessary reagents and (depending on the ritual) correct destination / starting place.

    Another point is healing. A fighter in previous editions wants to rest if he is not fully healed. 4E does differentiate between "how many hits can you take over the whole day" and "how many hits can you take in one fight" so that there is no longer a need for him to be at full health.

    I would say the 15 Minutes day (option) does still exist in 4E to a lower degree. But it is easier for the DM and players to avoid it, and it is no longer your undoubtable best option.
    Last edited by Leolo; 2011-02-24 at 07:14 AM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsmiles View Post
    I have a huge issue with death not being a threat.
    Warning: Rant Ahead.
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    I haven't actually read that rule, but if by 'downed' it means 'below 0 HP' That's something I can live with. At 0 HP, they're not dead yet, just unconscious, and what creature, with any sort of intelligence and/or common sense, wouldn't take advantage of that? Yes, I may be killing more characters like that, but death needs to be a very real possibility for characters. This, "Oh, it's ok. Death is only temporary, we'll get you rezzed right back up, even though you're only level 1" crap is just that. Crap. If there's no chance of failure, where's the glory in succeeding? If the heroes automatically win, why even bother to have adventures? That game would play something like:

    DM: "Roll up a level 30 character."
    Players: "Why level 30?"
    DM: "Because you're going to win at everything, forever, anyways, we'll just skip the middle part."

    *facepalm*

    Seriously? Death should always be looming just over the next hill, or around the next corner. Players should fear for their characters' lives, at the very least, once or twice each session. If they die, so be it. Not every thorpe, village, or even town, will have a priest capable of resurrecting them.

    This is a game about risk and reward. What's the point if you take out the risk?
    So, a couple of things:
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    (1) "0 HP" is a ridiculously small target to hit considering the variables involved in dealing damage. Basing any rule around hitting that one number exactly doesn't work in a HP system.

    (2) Death is not the only way to fail - but it is the most destructive to a story. If you fail to save the king from assassins, you can still have a story about the aftermath; if you die trying to save the king your character has no further stories to tell - unless you are revived.

    The death-revival cycle is one of the more problematic in WotC D&D. Aside from the storytelling aspect of the game, it takes a lot of time to roll up a character and the time invested in that mechanical side of things only increases as a character levels. As a result WotC made it far easier to revive dead PCs than TSR did which raised concerns about the reduced impact of mortality.

    In short: if you want your Players to fear failure, come up with failure conditions aside from "you die." It will still strike the fear of god into your Players and ultimately makes for a more stable campaign.

    That said, the "three strikes" system is sufficiently exciting. To start with, those strikes don't go away with simple healing - you need to take a Short Rest to clear them up. This means that in a very swingy combat you can be walking around with 2 Strikes, fearing the next time you drop and have to start taking saves. Secondly, falling to Negative Bloody is a more realistic possibility than you'd expect when you consider Ongoing Damage and the larger damage potential of monsters. Thirdly, the anticipation of character death is more terrifying than character death itself - and 4e does a good job of building this anticipation.

    EDIT: @Potatocubed
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHB I, p. 185
    First Aid
    Make a Heal check to administer first aid.

    First Aid: Standard action.
    ✦ Stabilize the Dying: Make a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize an adjacent dying character. If you succeed, the character can stop making death saving throws until he or she takes damage. The character’s current hit point total doesn’t change as a result of being stabilized.
    ...and you die at Negative Bloodied, not Negative CON
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB I, p. 295
    ✦ Death: When you take damage that reduces your current hit points to your bloodied value expressed as a negative number, your character dies.
    Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2011-02-24 at 07:18 AM.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by pasko77 View Post
    SERIOUSLY?
    THIS is the best thing they came up with?

    "Hey wizard, the McGuffin is there, turn invisible and catch it."
    "No, I'm not angry enough."
    Not quite, invisibility is a daily utility power, so that requirement doesn't apply.

    Also, consider the way professional football players or other athletes operate. They don't get up and begin competing right away, no stretching exercises or warming up. They wouldn't be half as effective than they would be if they warmed up first. Why wouldn't the same thing apply to the exercise of magical power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    What about classes that just don't go through healing surges? I played an Artificer in a recent game who, in a really tough encounter, would use 2 surges. Most of the time, he didn't use any. (Something about big meat shields and melee strikers keeping the enemies off me.)

    I think you might have quoted the wrong section, AngryDM never suggested anything in relation to healing surges. I think I said that it might be an option for cases where the campaign setting/narrative dictated fewer, harder, encounters per day.

    It would be in addition to the rule AngryDM suggested, so either you reach a threshold of healing surges spent or a threshold of encounters run through, before gaining the higher level dailies. (I think the idea I had in my head at the time I wrote it was that at 0 Healing surges spent, you'd have your lowest level, at 1/4 of your total healing surges spent you'd have both your lowest level dailies, at 1/2 Healing Surges you'd have all but your highest, and you'd gain that at 3/4 Healing Surges spent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    To make this idea worse, my highest level daily was "heal bot" that gave bonuses when allies spent a surge next to it and could revive fallen allies. Under this system, I would be a lot worse at one thing a Leader is supposed to do (heal) because I would almost never get access to my best healing power.
    So?
    Under the same system, the other characters would be dealing less damage because of less dailies, or bringing less control to the table, or be worse at protection, until the time at which its most needed (Theoretically). You'd still have healing surges to spend at that point, especially playing an artificer as you can spread around healing surge spending, and it would be a boost when the chips were down, or to help push you through the last encouter of the day.

    It's not perfect, it's just an idea.
    Last edited by Anonomuss; 2011-02-24 at 07:29 AM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    EDIT: @Potatocubed...
    Oops. Oh well, it's been a while since I played.
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    Default Re: [4e] Angry about the 15 minute workday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonomuss View Post
    Not quite, invisibility is a daily utility power, so that requirement doesn't apply.
    Sigh, it was an example. I'm AFB so I can't find an appropriate power, but I don't doubt there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonomuss View Post
    Also, consider the way professional football players or other athletes operate. They don't get up and begin competing right away, no stretching exercises or warming up. They wouldn't be half as effective than they would be if they warmed up first. Why wouldn't the same thing apply to the exercise of magical power?
    You are mixing "warming up" with "second half". I can warm up without people trying to kill me, and it is a perfect example of how flawed your argument is: professional players START THE GAME ALREADY WARMED UP.
    Amirite?
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