Guns. More Guns. (Short Poll)

[The Rose Dragon]

OK, maybe not so short, but still.

Let's assume you are playing an RPG with guns in it. Say it's a modern game, without massive changes in firearm technology. Which one would you rather the RPG have: detailed firearms with calibers, clip sizes, penetration of armor versus tissue damage, etc. where picking, say, one assault rifle against another actually makes a difference in some situations, where carbines, bullpup designs and such are actually different from the rest; or bare bones weapons that are only different because some are higher quality and thus better but more expensive than others? Would your opinion change if the technology was dialed back or forward?

Also, what basic firearm types do you think should be included in modern games? Industrial age games? Renaissance games? Cyberpunk games? Space games? Would your opinion on the futuristic ones change if we scaled the game on the slide of soft versus hard sci-fi?

[Fhaolan]

Depends on the combat mechanics of the game itself. Simply having huge lists of weapons do you no good if the mechanics themselves don't differentate between them.

Do you really want to deal with a system that has significant differences between a barrel 5" long to one that is 6" long? There is a minor difference in RL, is it worth the detail in game though?

[The Rose Dragon]

Depends on the combat mechanics of the game itself. Simply having huge lists of weapons do you no good if the mechanics themselves don't differentate between them.

That is the question, though. Do you want the differences between models to matter, or should every automatic rifle use the same stats?

[Spiryt]

That is the question, though. Do you want the differences between models to matter, or should every automatic rifle use the same stats?

If I play game that pretends to be simulation, or whatever, some variety would be good.

In playing D&D like stuff it would probably only suck, because of system inability to reflect it anyhow in the first place.


As for my preference, I wouldn't really like massively complicated stuff, neither I really like 3.5 "sword is sword, masterwork or not, let's get back to enhancements" approach.

So, middle ground? Leaning towards detailed stuff though.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Can't say for a Generic RPG.

For a game like D&D - absolutely not. I'm going to go on adventures, not spend my time choosing between weapon types.

For a game like Shadowrun - of course! And you'd better tell me what kind of over- and under-barrel accessories I can put on that gun and what kind of ammunition I can put in it

My current tastes run more towards the "rules light" approach, for what it's worth.

[Mango Fox]

Personally, I would treat this issue in an RPG the same way as in a FPS: I really don't want that much detail in my selection of guns. If I'm going to use an assault rifle, I'd like to be given the choice between "the really powerful and inaccurate one" and "the less powerful but more accurate one".

Just make sure that there's a lot of variety between different types of weapons. If I'm in a futuristic setting, let me choose between having a super-long-range railgun sniper rifle that takes a long time to warm up and burns through battery cells like there's no tomorrow, or pistols that effectively never run out of ammo because they recharge in any strong light source, or a gun that shoots lightning and shurikens.

[The Rose Dragon]

If I'm in a futuristic setting, let me choose between having a super-long-range railgun sniper rifle that takes a long time to warm up and burns through battery cells like there's no tomorrow [...] or a gun that shoots lightning and shurikens.

You are aware that Painkiller is not a futuristic setting, right?

[ThirdEmperor]

Depends in how it's handled, and what system. In a D&D style game, no way. In something like Shadowrun, heck yes. I spent more time designing my character's gun than I did designing the character in Shadowrun.

[Kuma Kode]

May I direct you to Weapons Locker, for d20 Modern? An entire book full of different weapons and models from around the world and through time... that are all nearly identical because of the system's inability to reflect minor variations. Range and magazine sizes are the only things that ever really fluctuate.

It is extremely useful for fluff, however.

Unless you're playing in a system that is highly detailed and capable of nuance, then no, it's far more trouble than it's worth. Also, it really only caters to gun-nuts. People who have no real interest in learning all about firearms and who just want to play a game are better off with genericized guns.

[Fhaolan]

It depends a lot on my mood, and the character I'm running. Sometimes I prefer the playstyle where the character just gets a revolver to shoot things with. Sometimes I can get hung up on the intricate details of the gun.

I've played Paladium, GURPS, Hero System. Heck, I started statting up 3.0 weapons according to approximate physical properties once. I'm no stranger to absurdly detailed weapon systems.

However, there will always be those days that I just want 'all handguns are like -this-' games.

[SurlySeraph]

Depends on the game. For most games I prefer a more abstract approach, but I absolutely love Twilight 2013, which is very simulationist.

Also, what basic firearm types do you think should be included in modern games?

9mm pistols, .45 pistols, one .44 or .50 pistol, a hunting rifle, a pump shotgun, an automatic shotgun, an SMG, a few assault rifles, one or two sniper rifles, and an anti-material rifle. Maybe an LMG.

Industrial age games?

19th-century: a couple kinds of revolvers, lever-action rifle, maybe a rare and expensive Maxim gun or similar.
20th-century: the same, plus bolt-action rifles, a Tommy gun ripoff, and BARs.

Renaissance games?

An expensive, slow-loading wheel-lock pistol. Maybe a wheel-lock longarm, too. High damage and maybe an intimidation effect, but usually impractical unless you carry like 9 of them.

Cyberpunk games?

Lots of variety. Numerous pistols distinguished by rate of fire, round size, ability to fire weird rounds like flechettes or poison darts, concealability, and maybe legality. A few shotguns, both pump and automatic. A lot of SMGs, a few assault rifles. Some sniper rifle. Definitely a man-portable minigun. Lots of accessories and customization options, some of which should be completely ridiculous. Sawn-off trigger guards, dart rounds loaded with napalm, underbarrel grenade launchers for pistols, etc. Maybe some railguns and energy weapons, but they should be expensive and rare. Reasonably common coilguns would be acceptable.

Space games?

Coilguns. Automatic weapons in projectile, pulse laser, and laser beam varieties. Laser sniper rifles. Some kind of gyrojet gun, likely using guided bullets. Some kind of ludicrously overpowered energy weapon that requires a backpack-sized power source and can target starships in low orbit.

Would your opinion on the futuristic ones change if we scaled the game on the slide of soft versus hard sci-fi?

Softer -> more focus on energy weapons, and silly ammunition types for the projectile weapons. Guided bullets, bullets that phase through things, several different kinds of exploding bullet, etc. Also plasma guns or plasma flamethrowers, which are impractical IRL.

[Badgerish]

Depends on how much the stats effect the game.

In project:Nemesis, one 9mm pistol is pretty damn similar to most other 9mm pistols, and that's fine as ORE is a fast and simple system.

In Spycraft2.0 there are half a page of 9mm pistols, and that's fine as there are real differences between then and there are a whole host of upgrades and changes that can be made for them. This fits the system which is extra-detailed, but those details matter.

[Tyndmyr]

OK, maybe not so short, but still.

Let's assume you are playing an RPG with guns in it. Say it's a modern game, without massive changes in firearm technology.

I am actually making such a system, due to the lack of good modern systems being published today. Nothing against D20 modern(play it, love it), but it's outta print.

I chose a reasonably detailed model. I'm not going to model every aspect, but guns do use RL calibers, physical weight, and magazine sizes. Damage is determined by caliber. Realistically speaking, this still means a lot of modern weapons are practically pretty close or identical to each other, but it's a reasonable degree of representation that doesn't slow the game down excessively.

Skills are based off broad categories, similar to weapon groups in D&D. Again, not a perfect model, but decent enough.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm not sure why I failed to express myself, so maybe I will rephrase myself.

If I decide to detail guns, the details will matter. If not, they won't. I'm just asking whether you would prefer details that matter, or simplified guns which all shoot things the same way. My intent is not inserting guns into an extant system, it's creating a system with guns in it.

[Tyndmyr]

I somewhat prefer details mattering. It's more important that it fits your system, though. Consistent level of detail is big for making a system easy to grasp and fairly usable.

[Gnoman]

I prefer a system that differentiates significantly between weapons. Noticeably, this can be done even in rules-light games. In D20 modern, for example, varying barrel lengths can be (theoretically are already, but the Weapons Locker has so many errors it's not really implemented) by slightly longer range increments, and there's a damage by caliber chart that makes things work decently.

Make the system too generic, and your choices dry up. If the weapons are statted out in detail, then you can decide "I want to be able to fire more shots without reloading, and I can accept a little less damage" and take a 9mm Beretta. Or you can say "I want to be sure that I only need one or two hits, and if I have to reload more often, that's ok." Then you might take a .45. If your system is too generic, then you don't have that option. (I also like the situation where you and your enemies are using different kinds of guns, so you can't use their ammo in your heavily customized weapons, forcing you to use inferor captured ones if your stocks are depleted.)

[DrakeRaids]

It depends entirely on the tone of the game, and what you want to be important. Lets say you want the game to focus heavily on preparation, on planning over the execution. If you want them to work out what they do to the absolute best of their ability, then yes, show them the guns, let them look at which one is best suited to the situation at hand, and specifically for what they are about to do.

Now, if you want the game to be less about the planning and more about the action, don't bother. All those little details can distract the players, and leave them frozen by choice, and bog down the game unnecessarily. Give them some guns, then watch the fireworks, and just have fun with it.

My opinion on these really wouldn't change based on the Era, its not the time period that matters, but rather what kind of game you want to be running.

I know embarrassingly little about Industrial and Renaissane games. Flintlock I guess? Muskets and the old hand cannons? Best guess I can give you.

Cyberpunk and space depends on what kind of future you're running, throwing around lasers and plasma is fine, as is going for a more gritty feel with just more advanced versions of projectiles.

[Yora]

There are just not that many variables when it comes to weapons in d20, that there's any good reason to have individual stats for every firearm. Small pistol, big pistol, SMG, medium calibre rifle, high caliber rifle, medium and heavy MG, and you have all you'll ever need.
If you want to have interesting extras, make them special features that can be added to the basic weapons. Like extra range, larger mags, and so on.

[Occasional Sage]

If the focus of the game is gear/tech and planning and combat, I don't think you can offer me enough details. I will happily flip through seven sourcebooks simultaneously, putting together a custom weapon that requires a scientific calculator to get right.

If I were playing in Oracle Hunter's rules-light games, my answer would be substantially different. Doesn't sound like that's where you're going, though.

[randomhero00]

I would love to play a game where different modern weapons actually had different varied complex stats. However, there are very few people who know enough to stat them out. IRL the only person I can think of that would know enough (and I know several gun nuts) is my cousin who was a weapon specialist in the military (meaning he trained others in the use of all sort of weapons).

[Curious]

As others have said, it depends entirely on the type of game. For a D&D-esque game, with lots of hitpoints and not a whole lot of focus on equipment, I would say no.

[Quietus]

Disclaimer : I know jack all about actual guns. Keep this in mind, 'cause I have no realistic frame of reference.

To me, your level of complexity within firearm rules should more or less match the rest of what your game has. Setting up your weapon in GURPS or Hero system, I would expect a lot more crunch to be there than in, say, D&D - where I'd expect to have to choose based strictly on range, damage, and clip size - and if you ask me for anything more than taking the "Big Gun" aspect in Spirit of the Century I'm likely to be annoyed.

Right now, my tastes run toward rules light systems, things I can pick up and run quickly - and D&D. Mostly D&D really, because I've reached a level of system mastery where I can quote most basic rules as they come up, and if I can't think of something, can provide a reasonably fair ruling. So if someone has to spend more time picking their gun than it would take me to throw together a basic low level NPC - a couple minutes, roughly - then it's too crunchy for me. Anything more than "Range, damage, clip" is probably going to be more trouble than it's worth.