Evil but stupid characters

[pendell]

I'm following the discussion on Enor next forum over, and many people find him "sweet" and "heartwarming". I haven't seen anything to support that; I just see him as having a low int score.

Thinking about it, the same thing is true of Thog -- he was homicidal. To the best of my knowledge he never questioned the murders Nale made him participate in, never expressed remorse for any evil act, and to the best of my knowledge never performed a good one.

Thog was chaotic evil and Enor *may* be evil. We haven't seen him long enough to know whether he's evil or neutral.

And yet, people find him cute and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt -- and I am, as well, to some extent -- because they're doing what they're told. Ganjii is doing the thinking for Enor. Nale did the thinking for Thog.

And yet.

And yet it occurs to me that evil doesn't have to be smart to be evil. One of the classic villain templates is the thug -- the not-too-smart musclebound oaf who kills people for fun. The classic henchman.

So my question is, from the D&D perspective, when does the stupid henchman of an evil villain himself become evil? At what point does "just following orders" or "too dumb to know better" stop you from alignment-shifting, if you start off as neutral?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Urpriest]

Generally speaking, evil henchmen are evil. It's when they start showing remorse and questioning (hesitantly, of course, they aren't all that intelligent) their superiors that they start moving towards good.

Of course, evil characters can still be adorable.

[archon_huskie]

"We were just following orders" is not a claim to innocence. It is an admittence of guilt. It explains why they did the action in question, but the action was still performed by them and for that, they can be held accountable.

Enor and Thog, though they may not have the highest INT or WIS stats, can still say no to Ganji or Nale.

[Doughnut Master]

Enor also displays fear. Which is cute on a lightning spewing dragon monster.

[awa]

obeying any and all orders with out question is lawful neutral.

choosing not to follow an evil order is a good act. Thog probably is evil because he enjoys killing

[Vknight]

They also still question what is going on. Along with the fact Thog will not harm or let harm come to Elan.

[Callista]

Elan is stupid and lets others do the thinking for him. Yet nobody doubts he is Good. He's probably the most Good-aligned character in the entire OotS canon--either that, or tied for it with O-Chul.

What makes Elan good-aligned is that he genuinely cares about other people, to the point that he sees his own life and safety as pretty close to inconsequential. Thog, on the other hand, sees other people as toys to play with and little else. If Thog wants a puppy, Thog will turn a random unsuspecting blacksmith into a puppy, and who cares if the blacksmith considers it to be torture? Thog has a puppy; therefore Thog is happy.

It's not the level of intelligence you have; it's how you use what you've got. Elan uses his limited resources to pick good, trustworthy people to do the thinking for him. Thog picks people who will let him have the ice-cream, sprinkles, and random slaughter he thinks are fun.

I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but people seem to believe sometimes that "stupid" is the same thing as "being a child"; but it's not. Adults with low INT scores are still adults. They have a lifetime of experience and they are physically and emotionally as mature as (i.e., have Wisdom scores like) adults with average INT scores. If they have an INT of 3 or higher, they're able to make moral decisions. Sure, Thog will never be able to make a master plan that involves becoming a tyrant who slaughters multiple nations; he's just not that sophisticated. And Elan will never be able to mastermind a subtle takeover of Tarquin's evil empire to turn it into a Good Kingdom of happy sunshine and rainbows. But that's not determined by how evil or good those two are; it's determined by the mental resources they have access to.

If you're so stupid that not able to do large-scale evil, then that just makes you less dangerous--not less evil.

[Vknight]

Except Nale told Thog it was a puppy. And Thog trusted Nale.
It has also flat out been said they roll for stats.
Thog therefor could notably have an Intellgience of 3 and a wisdom of 5. Showing his complete inability to understand things at a compotent level.
Thog very well may be considered to have develop mental problems.

I will admit he kills gleefully but only because Nale a person he trusts tells him to. When Elan tells him not to hurt people because he won't like it Thog actively listens. In the end Thog very well may be redeemed. Thog also does not care for the rest of the evil party. So if Nale were to die he would more then likely follow Elan doing good. Thog actively enjoys the time with Elan and doing good. See that difference Nale has to use wit, and bribbery with food stuff, which if he did not have Thog would leave.

These reasons show that he is more a good guy. Stupid characters often have the greastest copacity for good and the ability to be redeemed.

[Callista]

Well, it's prettty likely that Nale played a part in Thog's evil alignment, and that Thog can be convinced to turn back and learn to care about others. But he's obviously evil now, whatever his hypothetical potential for redemption.

[Vknight]

Yes I know but I'm pointing out a highly likely and plausible scenario considering what we know of him.
Just pointing out the facts and scenarios that could come about from it.

But yes he is Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Neutral, or Chaotic Stupid.

[Callista]

It does get kind of gray around the 3 INT mark. At that point you really don't have all that much mental sophistication at all, not too much ability to use logic and think about consequences. I'd say that the really low INT scores--the ones that correspond to an IQ of 40 or lower--would probably tend to give you a true neutral alignment; but if you have a 3 INT at all, you are still capable of making moral choices and can still be any of the nine possible alignments.

...which makes me want to play a paladin with low INT now. 'cause seriously, wouldn't that be cool? His special mount is smarter than he is, but he's such a good guy that a deity (or the upper planes) recognized it and gave him the power to help people. He's probably the kind of guy who buys ice cream for little kids and doesn't understand why evil people have to be such meanie-heads...

[Yukitsu]

obeying any and all orders with out question is lawful neutral.

It also describes 99% of the human population when dealing with an authority figure.

[Callista]

...you've obviously never sat in a high school classroom.

I mean, yeah, most people will obey if you make the circumstances just right, but under normal circumstances, they run the gamut from "do my own thing just 'cuz" to "slavish obedience".

[Yukitsu]

...you've obviously never sat in a high school classroom.

I mean, yeah, most people will obey if you make the circumstances just right, but under normal circumstances, they run the gamut from "do my own thing just 'cuz" to "slavish obedience".

Actually, it's a study that found that the vast majority of humanity will execute another human being if instructed to do so by a man with as little authority as a lab coat, with as flimsy a justification as "The test must continue. Proceed". It was a study designed to determine the level of personal responsibility the lower ranked nazis were to be held accountable for.

[Razgriez]

Ever read "Of Mice and Men" by John Steinbeck? (Chances are, if you are still in school, this may be unlikely, since it's challenged for not being "politically correct") A nice, if dumb, fellow, but commits an evil act in the end, and forces his only friend to kill him.

Thog is kinda like "Lennie" from it.
In other words, Thog is Mentally Retarded, even for Half-orc standards. It's more than just "Thog's an idiot who doesn't know things, (Low intelligence score) He's also rash, irresponsible, and out of it akin to having a low Wisdom score. Remember in the earlier strips when the Linear Guild is working with the Order of the Stick to activate those seals in the first Linear guild plot? If you recall, Thog wasn't even paying attention what he was doing, yet, there is no denying he was killing innocent creatures. That's still evil

Enor, is not quite as dumb as Thog. he clearly has a measure bit more of intelligence, and he's probably got a decent charisma, for being a dragon type. He even ask his partner Ganji, if he remembers key, critical things... like the bounty notice on Nale, which they forgot because of a last minute trick knife throw from Haley. (Ganji cut Enor off from speaking). That said, I'd have to say, since he's a Blue dragon of some kind, plus his actions, he's probably either LN, N, LE, or NE

..... Where's a Paranoid samurai style Paladin who has a trigger finger for using Detect evil at a moments notice when you need her, for once.

Basically though to answer your question... You're thinking too hard into the whole mental stat...

It's Actions, not "IQ level" that determines whether someone is Good, Neutral or Evil. Think Monty Python here for a moment: Sure that rabbit is cute, fluffy, if a simple creature... but if it turns out to be a "vorpal rabbit" with a taste for human flesh... Forget how innocent looking it may look or stupid it maybe! Bring out the Holy Hand Grenades!

[Callista]

Actually, it's a study that found that the vast majority of humanity will execute another human being if instructed to do so by a man with as little authority as a lab coat, with as flimsy a justification as "The test must continue. Proceed". It was a study designed to determine the level of personal responsibility the lower ranked nazis were to be held accountable for.

Milgram experiment. I know. But that's why I said "If you make the circumstances just right". The situation they put together in that experiment was exactly right to trigger obedience: Unfamiliar surroundings, a participant who was assumed to be a volunteer, a scientist who was assumed to be ethical and professional, and the assurance that they would not be held responsible at all. In many cases the volunteers simply didn't believe that they were killing anyone... The artificiality of the situation makes it very difficult to apply the experiment to real life.

It's better to look at a natural environment and observe whether people obey authority in everyday life. And yes--they do. But not to the extent that Milgram observed. Even when it was dangerous not to obey, there were always people who didn't obey. And when you look at the average high school classroom--well, are the students always obeying the teacher? Clock the speeds on a highway; do we always obey the speed limit? I think what the Milgram experiment teaches us most of all is that people under the immediate eye of a powerful authority figure, in an unfamiliar environment, with the expectation that this authority figure is doing what is best for everyone, we are likely to obey. That, however, is quite a narrow situation.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Thinking about it, the same thing is true of Thog -- he was homicidal. To the best of my knowledge he never questioned the murders Nale made him participate in, never expressed remorse for any evil act, and to the best of my knowledge never performed a good one.

In Thog's case, I would say that it's debatable whether he is smart enough to be considered responsible for his own actions; he was just as easily manipulated into helping Elan as he was into Nale, only questioning what Elan told him to do when it contradicted Nale, who he has learned to trust since Nale gives him ice cream and lets him stay up late. Anyone who bases his moral decisions and essentially the entire course of his life on criteria that an eight-year old would find simple and reductive is difficult to consider cognitively competant.

In a world like that of OotS, where Evil is a kind of force which exists and is clearly defined, sure, he's still evil. In a more modern judgment that doesn't rely on this sort of worldview, though evil, Thog can't really be held responsible for villainous acts (towards cartoons), and his childlike mannerisms are endearing; if anything, he's a mix of cute and tragic; if he were around people like Elan, instead of people like Nale, he'd probably be a good guy, and actually a lot nicer than most of the established ones.

[Frozen_Feet]

It does get kind of gray around the 3 INT mark. At that point you really don't have all that much mental sophistication at all, not too much ability to use logic and think about consequences. I'd say that the really low INT scores--the ones that correspond to an IQ of 40 or lower--would probably tend to give you a true neutral alignment; but if you have a 3 INT at all, you are still capable of making moral choices and can still be any of the nine possible alignments.

Int of 1 or 2 does give you True Neutral alignment - that's the reasoning why all true animals are True Neutral: they lack extent of reasoning that would make them accountable for their actions.

I'd say most people with 3 Int would gravitate towards True Neutral too, because they would have some trouble grasping and committing to concepts and attitudes required for other alignments.

[Burner28]

obeying any and all orders with out question is lawful neutral.

choosing not to follow an evil order is a good act. Thog probably is evil because he enjoys killing

In theory maybe. In practice probably not as continuing to show a willingness to obey evil orders will make you Lawful Evil, not Lawful Neutral. You are still responsible for your own actions. And no, refusing to do Evil doesn't make you Good as Good under D&D definition is not an absence of Evil.

In the same manner, Thog is also shown that yes, he is capable of making moral decisions as shown here. This is evident in the fact he tried to cover up his killing by stating "Thog alone"

[Edhelras]

...which makes me want to play a paladin with low INT now. 'cause seriously, wouldn't that be cool? His special mount is smarter than he is, but he's such a good guy that a deity (or the upper planes) recognized it and gave him the power to help people. He's probably the kind of guy who buys ice cream for little kids and doesn't understand why evil people have to be such meanie-heads...

What about John Coffey in the film The Green Mile?

A simple, but beautiful mind, blessed by the gods.

[Friv]

I will admit he kills gleefully but only because Nale a person he trusts tells him to. When Elan tells him not to hurt people because he won't like it Thog actively listens.

To a point. Thog also beats Haley unconscious with a door so that he and his friends can go have ice cream. He does this because Elan is trying to convince him not to fight, and that seems like a good way to not fight.

In the end Thog very well may be redeemed. Thog also does not care for the rest of the evil party. So if Nale were to die he would more then likely follow Elan doing good. Thog actively enjoys the time with Elan and doing good. See that difference Nale has to use wit, and bribbery with food stuff, which if he did not have Thog would leave.

... leave via slaughter, yes. Remember the whole "out of ice cream" sequence? Nale rushes his plans because, when the ice cream is gone, Thog is going to go on a sugar-fueled violence rampage.

I think the larger issue is, in media most dumb villains are portrayed as either violent thugs or childlike men. In the former case, they are usually the butt of jokes and are clearly responsible for their actions. In the latter, they're usually portrayed as being too clueless to realise that they're hurting people, due to a hilariously mistaken belief that children aren't capable of evil.

Thog is a rare case of a violent, childlike thug man.

[Burner28]

I think the larger issue is, in media most dumb villains are portrayed as either violent thugs or childlike men. In the former case, they are usually the butt of jokes and are clearly responsible for their actions. In the latter, they're usually portrayed as being too clueless to realise that they're hurting people, due to a hilariously mistaken belief that children aren't capable of evil.

Thog is a rare case of a violent, childlike thug man.

Yeah that is something noteworthy. And I am sure that it is only a belief that little children(like 4 year olds) rather than 14 year olds that are portrayed as being incapabkle of making their own moral decision

[Tanngrisnir]

Thog is kinda like "Lennie" from it.

I'd say a major difference here is that Lennie never intentially kills anyone or anything and knows that it is a bad thing when it happens, while Thog often intentially kills people and things and shows no remorse over it.

Yeah that is something noteworthy. And I am sure that it is only a belief that little children(like 4 year olds) rather than 14 year olds that are portrayed as being incapabkle of making their own moral decision

Which is still very wrong. 4 year olds are very capable of making moral decisions. I work with them every day and they definately have a clear sense of what is right or wrong, they just don't always follow their own ideals untill they are more familiar with reprimands and the consequences they will face.

Personally I'm really really sick of the man-child character. They really ruin things for me because they are just so boring to read, and 'being cute' does not redeem them. While I like OOTS, I wish Rich would stop using this character concept.

[Friv]

Yeah, toddlers have trouble with right and wrong a lot of the time, but by the time you're three or four, you've probably at least got the basics down. A lot of people seem to assume that this whole "total innocence" thing lasts until puberty.

And I actually like Thog, precisely because he's more of a deconstruction than an actual childlike guy. He's sort of sweet, but he's also clearly a nasty, cruel person who uses violence as a form of recreation. He's fully responsible for his own actions, even if he sometimes seems sympathetic.

[Amridell]

If you take orders from an evil person, kill someone, then regret it later, you are not evil. Evil is, on your own accord,ending a life out of spite, making someone extraordinarily miserable, or being simply cruel. It is not, however, simply following an evil person. In fact, both Thog and Enor are discombobulated, ignorant, and illusioned fools. Nale and Ganjii have told them that they can always look to the two leadertypes for help. It's kind of like kids. The parents pass on their morals, and if those morals are loving and compassionate, the babe will be so. If they are ruthless or heartless (or both) the babe will be alike to his parents ways. Nale and Ganjii told their respective comrades that killing like that is the right thing to do. If someone you trust told you something to do, there's a good chance you'd do it. Nale convinced Thog to trust him, and Ganjii conditioned Enor in the same manor. That's the reality of life. Those who raise you, care for you, or somehow earn your trust, you respect and look up to them (usually not literaly. Usually.), and you somehow emulate them. In conclusion, Enor and Thog look up to their respective masters, and are just trying to be good friends (which often involoves violence).

[Yukitsu]

Milgram experiment. I know. But that's why I said "If you make the circumstances just right". The situation they put together in that experiment was exactly right to trigger obedience: Unfamiliar surroundings, a participant who was assumed to be a volunteer, a scientist who was assumed to be ethical and professional, and the assurance that they would not be held responsible at all. In many cases the volunteers simply didn't believe that they were killing anyone... The artificiality of the situation makes it very difficult to apply the experiment to real life.

It's better to look at a natural environment and observe whether people obey authority in everyday life. And yes--they do. But not to the extent that Milgram observed. Even when it was dangerous not to obey, there were always people who didn't obey. And when you look at the average high school classroom--well, are the students always obeying the teacher? Clock the speeds on a highway; do we always obey the speed limit? I think what the Milgram experiment teaches us most of all is that people under the immediate eye of a powerful authority figure, in an unfamiliar environment, with the expectation that this authority figure is doing what is best for everyone, we are likely to obey. That, however, is quite a narrow situation.

I think the evidence in favour of people committing atrocities at the behest of any authority figure is just as common in the real world. eg. what the experimenter set out to test. You don't need a controlled environment, and you don't need to be under the authority figure's immediate eye, and the setting can be as familiar as your own home. The reason some individuals are defiant of norms, laws etc. is generally that those individuals are maladaptive, or they aren't being observed by an authority figure. Not that as a general principle, the majority of humans consider the ethics of the situation.

The only relevant factor is that they assume the authority figure is correct based on that individual's perceived expertise.

[JonestheSpy]

Well yeah, both Thog and Enor are pretty childlike - Enor does seem smarter though, I'd peg him at about 3rd or 4th grade while Thog seems like a homicidal 4 year old. He's evil-dangerous but the stuff about ice cream and hugs is still cute, and I do think that he's largely influenced by the company he keeps - notice he didn't attempt anything violent when he was travelling with Elan.

But to the original point, I think that even "normal" low-intelligence folks aren't going to be any more predisposed to commit acts of violence and cruelty than average people, but they might be more easily manipulated. So it can go any way really - you can have a dumb but vicious thug, or you could have a slow but basically decent sort doing bad things, like Fezzik working for the Sicilian (or the Monster in Darkness, surprised no one's brought him up yet). I don't think there's any clear line that can be drawn.

[Zaydos]

If left to his own devices Thog would be killing people for fun. Elan can control him, but just because Roy can control Belkar doesn't make Belkar not evil. Actually... they're both CE with low wisdom. I'd guess Thog has lower Int, Wis, and Cha then Belkar though.

Enor I can't say about. Except for being tricked into a bar fight by Ganji he hasn't really done evil; just arresting wanted criminals. So you could make an argument for LN for him. I'd put him as evil because of the Always LE tag for half-blue dragons but that's just a line in the MM and not actually based on the character's personality. Apparently I'm prejudiced.

-looks at avatar- But then again if you have to be evil can't go wrong with lawful.

[awa]

the monster in the darknes hasent killed anyone i can think of.

[JonestheSpy]

Enor I can't say about. Except for being tricked into a bar fight by Ganji he hasn't really done evil;

I don't see how Enor was tricked, he just went with the strategy they'd worked out beforehand: When Gannji uses the codeword 'Sparky', Enor uses his lightning breath.

Edit:

the monster in the darknes hasent killed anyone i can think of.

The MitD was going to eat Haley and Belkar, they just ran away first. and there are number of times he would have fought and killed if Xykon had let him - he's still an innocent that way more by luck than anything else.

This seems to be turning into more of an OotS thread than RPG thread. But I think the point stands that there is a huge variety of ways evil can interact with stupid, and the only real way to differentiate is to know the inner character of the slow one.