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    Default How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    I was thinking of implementing character points that you earn on level up that you can spend to diversify your character. For instance, say you were a barbarian with an encounter power that hit all adjacent enemies, if you chose controller then you might be able to slow them as well. I was also thinking that everyone gets a free multiclass feat per tier. That, and maybe give more points for stats (but with a max amount.)

    Obviously balancing would be harder but I'm not as worried about that as my players simply don't like 4e because it feels so cookie cutter. Which makes roleplay feel forced and repetitive.

    So, combing encounter powers, increasing secondary and tertiary stats, free multiclass feat per tier, anything else?

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    If your players don't like 4e, I'd suggest just playing 3.5. It's easier to make 3.5 feel like 4e than vice versa.

    Or of course, pathfinder or one of the other variants out there. Lots to choose from, really.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    If your players don't like 4e, I'd suggest just playing 3.5. It's easier to make 3.5 feel like 4e than vice versa.

    Or of course, pathfinder or one of the other variants out there. Lots to choose from, really.
    Well we've been playing 3.x and pathfinder since it came out. I want something new without getting rid of diversity. We already got most of 4e books anyway. Plus I really really like the character builder.

    edit 4e is also a lot easier to balance.
    Last edited by randomhero00; 2011-02-25 at 11:10 AM.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Well, your changes won't be in the character builder anyhow, unless they've added something Im not aware of.

    The best I can advise you is try a different game or setting. There's some solid third party stuff out there for D20 systems that really mixes it up. D20 past. Iron Kingdoms, etc. Similar system, very different feel.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Well, your changes won't be in the character builder anyhow, unless they've added something Im not aware of.

    The best I can advise you is try a different game or setting. There's some solid third party stuff out there for D20 systems that really mixes it up. D20 past. Iron Kingdoms, etc. Similar system, very different feel.
    The extra stat points would be, and I think you can force extra feats, but I forget. The combining of powers would be the only thing.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    my players simply don't like 4e because it feels so cookie cutter. Which makes roleplay feel forced and repetitive.
    Then I don't think that character points (which let you take "cookie cutter" options) are going to help. You're treating a symptom, not a cause.

    That said, it's easy to implement something like this. Your option basically boils down to "more feats". Give the PCs a feat every level, instead of every other level, and that should cover all of your options. Possibly add a feat that increases a stat by +2 (other than your primary stat; this is a useful feat but not overpowered), or one that adds a boost of your choice to the encounter power of your choice (this has a chance of being overpowered depending on writing).
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Honestly, if you want to make 4e feel more like 3.5... play 3.5. It's probably easier in the long run. If you're worried about balance issues, spend a few months on forums like this one learning what not to allow. (Dweomerkeeper, I'm looking at you. Same goes for you, Incantatrix.)
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    My biggest problem in this regard is power monotony rather than actual build homogeneity but it's probably worse in 3.5 for certain classes (looking at you martial types). In otherwords, you only get a few powers, which you'll be using basically ad nauseum over the course of your career. More At-Wills, and an additional Encounter and Utility power per level you get them that you can choose to 'prepare' in place of another during an Extended Rest (exactly as per the Essentials Mage) would address this nicely.

    Also, adding more feats to help mitigate the burden of feat taxes like Expertise and Improved Defenses (or providing them as bonus feats) would certainly be of great help in improving build diversity.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Why not go the other way around? Several people have said it, but if you take D&D and only allow the most balanced tiers, 3 and 4, you have something that gets pretty close to what you want anyway. You have quite a few classes with at will and encounter powers, even, between initiators and warlocks.

    If you are just bored of 3.5, then grab some homebrew from these boards. There's a few completely new power systems floating around that are quite interesting. Then get a new campaign setting you haven't played in.

    Or just get a different system. There's even a few free ones, if you are worried about books.

    Alternatively, from looking at 4E core (the only thing I know): homebrew more utility powers, and give everyone three or four of them.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2011-02-25 at 11:37 AM.
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    reply: because we've already spent money on 4e :)

    I like the auto bonus feat thing. Especially since several feats are obviously needed. Combine that with a free multiclass feat, and a +4 to a tertiary stat, plus extra encounter powers (maybe 1 from another class every 5 levels or something)...and it should be good.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Just because you spent money on a system doesnt make it the correct one to run. If your players hate it, why run it?

    It's not like the 3.5 srd and homebrew costs you more money.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    I once tried to make difference for each power source. Like, martial classes get more at-will, can power their at-wills, but have less daily powers. Arcane classes, on the other hand, have only one at-will, less encounter, but more daily powers. And things like that for the other sources. That way, each power source becomes something original and not just a fluffy concept without any real meaning.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    How about giving a free multiclass feat+associated feat chain for power swapping?
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Plus I just take this as a challenge to make 4e fun. I like moding things. So sue me.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    We aren't necessarily criticizing your intentions, as they ARE good ones: you're simply trying to improve a product to make it like a product that already exists. We're merely suggesting cutting out the middleman: all of the work and effort that would go into converting one system into a system that is largely available through the SRD and various homebrew items located on this and similar sites. Plus, it's not really a mod if it's just product B (which is derivative of product A) made to look like product A. It's just uneccessary work.
    Last edited by TroubleBrewing; 2011-02-25 at 12:16 PM.
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey McBannert View Post
    We aren't necessarily criticizing your intentions, as they ARE good ones: you're simply trying to improve a product to make it like a product that already exists. We're merely suggesting cutting out the middleman: all of the work and effort that would go into converting one system into a system that is largely available through the SRD and various homebrew items located on this and similar sites. Plus, it's not really a mod if it's just product B (which is derivative of product A) made to look like product A. It's just uneccessary work.
    Well no, I'm not trying to make it exactly like 3.5. I want its newness + its balance and then 3.5. Get what I'm saying now?

    Basically I think its easier for my tastes to diversify 4e than to balance 3.5.
    Last edited by randomhero00; 2011-02-25 at 12:23 PM.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey McBannert View Post
    It's just uneccessary work.
    This one. For good homebrew, start with what's closest to your goal. Klepto things that work from other systems relentlessly. Sure, you can mod anything into anything...you can build a whole system from scratch if you want. But if it already exists, why not save the effort?

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    This one. For good homebrew, start with what's closest to your goal. Klepto things that work from other systems relentlessly. Sure, you can mod anything into anything...you can build a whole system from scratch if you want. But if it already exists, why not save the effort?
    because i like 4e. who cares why man?

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    who cares why man?
    We aren't asking why you like 4e. Heck, I like 4e as a tactical combat game. It's interesting, it's easy to pick up and play, and it plays well with inexperienced players. What we're wondering is why you'd want to take a game whose main virtue is its simplicity, and add elements of a game known for its almost impenetrable complexity. It seems counter-intuitive, that's all.
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey McBannert View Post
    We aren't asking why you like 4e. Heck, I like 4e as a tactical combat game. It's interesting, it's easy to pick up and play, and it plays well with inexperienced players. What we're wondering is why you'd want to take a game whose main virtue is its simplicity, and add elements of a game known for its almost impenetrable complexity. It seems counter-intuitive, that's all.
    Hmm, probably the same reason I'll study math even though I've graduated college and don't need math for my current job.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    If it helps, I give the exact same reaction to people who want to play a hack and slash game with CoC rules or whatever other odd combo you have. It all can be done...but every ruleset has a given focus. If someone asks how to get rid of all the distrust in Paranoia, I'd strongly suggest they pick a different system, because by the time they get done hacking that out...it wont be the same system anyway.

    In short, 4e's non-diverse(don't want to use the word simple) nature is pretty integral to it. You'll end up gutting the whole thing to change that.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Exactly what sort of diversity are you looking to add to 4e?
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    Well no, I'm not trying to make it exactly like 3.5. I want its newness + its balance and then 3.5. Get what I'm saying now?

    Basically I think its easier for my tastes to diversify 4e than to balance 3.5.
    I don't really get what sort of diversity you want. The various 4th ed classes IN PLAY are quite diverse in terms of what they do. Character to character diversity is there.

    As for diversity of choices in play, have you COMPARED a 4th ed martial type to a 3.5 martial build? 3.5 probably has one decent trick at mid level, 4th ed at mid level typically has 2 at wills, 3 encounters, a paragon path encounter, 3 dailies, a racial power, an action point, a second wind, and a bunch of item powers, and ALL of these are likely to be at least occassionally useful in combat (except for rangers where the second-at will is pointless since it's not named twin-strike).

    Or do you mean build choices? Level 1 3.x, one race, one feat, one class, maybe a handful of spells. And most of your "choices" are traps. Level 1 4th, one race, one feat (which can be a multiclass feat), one class (or two if taking a hybrid class), 2 at will powers, 1 encounter power, 1 daily power. And you almost have to deliberately TRY to get fourth ed wrong.

    There are orders of magnitude more real choices at level 1 in 4th ed, despite the fact that there are far fewer books full of races and feats and classes. And pretty much every level will give at least one attack power, utility power, stat increase, or feat. There is a problem of MAD on many hybrids/multiclasses, but that's WORSE in 3.x too.

    So, no, I don't get what you're saying. The only diversity missing in 4th ed is the ability to freely multiclass, and in fact between hybrids, multiclass feats, paragon paths, and epic desitines you have plenty of ability to multiclass in 4th ed.

    Do you want character to character diversity or diversity in the actions any one character can reasonably choose in battle or diversity in build choices or something else. Because it seems to me that the only way 4th ed characters are lacking in any sort of diversity compared to 3.x builds is in that all 4th ed powers are called "at-will" "encounter" or "daily" and they're earned at the same level (baring essencials and PHB3 classes) and in 4th ed you don't have as many sucky or brokenly powerful choices filling entire books.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    I'm agreed with those who just say play 3.5. It's a lot of work and any balance you like in 4e will be gone. At least with 3.5 there's been some testing. You'd be taking total shots in the dark.

    Some things I like from 1e/2e that I think is missing from 3.5e and 4e are unusual dungeons and worlds. Basically tricky challenges that don't fall under the mechanical rules. Thus any game system could have them but they seemed to have disappeared in 3e, perhaps crowded out by all the new rules. I'd google all kinds of clever challenges which require players describing what they do to overcome them more than rolling dice to do so. Make sure you find popular ones; others can be a tedious headache.

    Under worlds comes more role-playing aspects. Set up economies, trade routes, society motivations, basic needs, etc. Also provides more opportunities for clever plans as in "lets sneak in as one of their _____" or "let's block off their supply of ______", etc. There are old world building books for this, but I don't know how good they are.

    I think both of these could add diversity to any campaign, without getting into mechanical balance.
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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    I'm also slightly confused as to what you are getting at...

    Sure when 4th edition first came out it was very sharp around the edges but since then... Like most games... It has become more fluid over time.

    Compare 3.X fighter to 4.0 fighter ... Which one is more flexible?

    Maybe you should just run a hybrid game... Maybe that will help with whatever you are trying...

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Just getting rid of class skills does wonders for diversity and rp potential. (AKA "all skills are class skills") Players should play their characters, not their class.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    I guess I want it to FEEL like there are more options. Maybe 4e is too "perfect." You almost can't go wrong. It feels like you're no longer building a character, you're just choosing random stuff .

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Honestly, it sounds like you really like 4e, and your players really like 3.5.

    The best way to handle a conflict like that is to take a short break and play something else entirely.

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Honestly, it sounds like you really like 4e, and your players really like 3.5.

    The best way to handle a conflict like that is to take a short break and play something else entirely.
    possibly. I'm trying to convince them that there are more options than there appear and that paragon + opens even more.

    I guess I just hate the feat tax and stat tax...

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    Default Re: How to make 4e DnD more diverse like 3.5?

    Well, if you do want to incorporate system mastery and trap options, just house-rule a bunch of bad stuff in. Like an encounter power called dodge that can only be used against one enemy giving you +1 AC (totally overpowered against solos, people will think), toughness (gives you 2 hit points... that's like +2 to your constitution score) or re-introducing racial penalties. All races get two -2 penalties for some specific attributes (elves and eladrins shouldn't be healthy, so -2 to constitution and strength should balanced their overpowerdness out), humans on the other hand only get a -2 penalty to any other stat they can choose, to balance it out with the free +2 bonus they receive to any stat of their choice.
    Give elves the ability to findsearch hidden doors when they stand right infront of one. Oh yeah, and bring back elven variety. 1000 elven subraces for 1000 classes, each one specifically bred for the classes they are meant to synergize with. Want a barbarian-elf? Let's take wild elves. Do we need more magical elves than eladrins? Sure we do, let's call them gold or grey elves (gold and grey elves are two different subraces, because the grey ones have an even better bonus to search for hidden doors, but a penalty on their other perception rolls). Then there's winged elves, round-ear-elves (they get a bonus feat, and a bonus at-will power, replacing humans), star elves, big elves, santa clause elves, wood elves (they're made of wood), elf-elves (they're double the elfiness that elves normally have), dark elves (not the same race like the drows), and aquatic elves, flying elves (they're similar to winged elves, but don't have wings), sea elves (they're like aquatic elves, but they live in saltwater), green pinewood elves, sand elves, dune elves, thunder elves, dire elves, super elves, blue elves, elvis elves, and more and more elves.

    That should be enough character options to fullfill the heart of anyone.

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