Wildshape Question

[Stallion]

So, in the description of Wildshape, it says that your character is able to shift into a creature limited by the size of his available wildshape ability and by your characters hitdie. Now, is there anything against shifting into an advanced creature? As in, a base creature that's advanced in its hitdie to gain higher stats, size, etc., so long as the shifted form stays within the size limits available to the druid/wildshape ranger.

Thoughts? Advice?

[tuesdayscoming]

Huh... RAW I can't think of anything against this, but it clearly goes against RAI.

[Devmaar]

Huh... RAW I can't think of anything against this, but it clearly goes against RAI.

I don't see how an advanced wolf is any more against RAI than a bear the same size

[Z3ro]

Well, I don't see what the advanced form get you. You don't get more hit dice, or more strength. Their only real advantage comes from increasing size, which you would need a different wild shape to turn into.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, IIRC, wildshape is based on polymorph, which is based on alter self, which expressly prohibits use of "non-average" creatures, i.e. things that have templates, the non-standard ability array, or are advanced.

[Z3ro]

Well, IIRC, wildshape is based on polymorph, which is based on alter self, which expressly prohibits use of "non-average" creatures, i.e. things that have templates, the non-standard ability array, or are advanced.

I actually reread the SRD on all three, and while they mention templated creatures, they make no mention of ability arrays or advanced creatures.

[phlidwsn]

Looks like you could not pre wildshape errata when the rules chain went wildshape->polymorph->Alter self. Now that it is Wildshape->Alternate Form it no longer has the line about "typical" anywhere that I can find, just the template exclusion. So looks like the answer is yes, but most DMs will say no.

Also, the only gain you'd get from it is is the extra stat point at the 4HD, 8HD, etc & crossing a size boundary, since the base attack, base save, skills, & feats of the advanced creature are overwritten by yours.

SRD Alternate Form:

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A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

[The Dark Fiddler]

If it's for a specific game, never underestimate simply asking the DM. Personally, I'd allow it with some sort of compromise, such as it being limited to a single animal (or small group), costing a feat, or it not being a strict "advance up to your druid level". That might just be me though.

The DM has the final say regardless if it is rules-legal, in fact, so it might be a good idea to ask even if there isn't anything against it.