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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Is there a reliable way to do a Swift Hunter Melee build? The build is at level 16, and must use the vampire race. However, I might be able to use the Vampire Monster Class that was homebrewed on these boards.

    The Stats are a 38 point buy, and the character cannot be evil. He gets WBL for a 16th level character, and only wants to focus on melee, not ranged. I was trying to tinker around with dual wielding weapons but I have run out of ideas.

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    SurlySeraph's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    You're talking about this Vampire class, right?

    You'll probably want to take a level in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian to get Pounce. Charging solves things nicely. You could go straight Scout or Swift Hunter from there.

    Alternately, there's the Shadow Pounce approach. Go into either Crinti Shadow Marauder or Telflammar Shadowlord, PrCs which give you the Shadow Pounce ability, which lets you make a full attack at the end of a teleport. Solves the problems of movement and full attacking, and if you can teleport multiple times per round (like by getting the Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink, and Shadow Jaunt maneuvers), you can make multiple full attacks per round.

    My favorite solution is to use an Explosive weapon, which forces everyone in the area of its hit to make a Reflex save vs 1d6 fire damage, and Boots of Sidestepping, which let you make a 5-foot step whenever you have to make a Reflex save. Unfortunately, I think they updated Explosive to only apply to ammunition. You could still use a spell like Blades of Flame with the Explosive Spell metamagic attached to it, but that's a bit of work.

    Do you want a full build, or just suggestions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Ganurath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    If you have room to burn three feats, you can use a pair of Martial Studies and a Martial Stance to pick up the White Raven stance Press the Advantage, which effectively turns your 5ft step into a 10ft step. Avoids AoOs, as well.

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    You'll probably want to take a level in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian to get Pounce. Charging solves things nicely.
    Or a (Cloistered) Cleric dip and Travel Devotion (in lieu of the Travel domain).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganurath View Post
    If you have room to burn three feats, you can use a pair of Martial Studies and a Martial Stance to pick up the White Raven stance Press the Advantage, which effectively turns your 5ft step into a 10ft step. Avoids AoOs, as well.
    Initiator Level isn't high enough for this tactic until Level 18.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Yeah that link would be correct. I found that it was much better than the standard vampire race, but not sure if the DM will allow it. Hopefully he will.

    I could use a full build to look at it, though because my optimization skills aren't that great and I don't have the time to fully invest in this right now. How would you suggest balancing the two levels from vampire, the barbarian, and the swift hunter build?

    Also this particular character is focused on hunting vampires. Sort of a vampire, vampire hunter if you know what I mean. So even if that's not the full focus, the build should be able to reliably deal with that.

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dervish yet. Seems like a natural to a melee Swift Hunter + Pounce.

    use Adaptive Unarmed Strike if you plan on making unarmed attacks
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2011-02-26 at 05:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dervish yet. Seems like a natural to a melee Swift Hunter + Pounce.
    i, too, am surprised. i am more surprised that everyone here forgot that swift hunter, as a ranger/scout, has access to ranger spells. put a wand compartment in one of your weapons and put in a wand of lion's charge.

    it works well, and is reasonably priced as a 2nd level spell. i used it in my dual-weilding-lance devoted tracker build
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Best thing for melee I can think of would require adapting swift hunter to work with Riposte and Robliar's Gambiting/Karmic Striking it up with the extra damage dice.

    Best with some way of getting dexterity to damage as well as to hit so that strength can be dropped for the most part. And miss chances/DR. Need them miss-chances and/or DR for either limiting the amount of damage taken by this tactic following one's initial charge into the thick of things or at least maximizing the damage taken to damage dealt ratio when attacking the enemy twice with extra damage dice for every time they hit you, dexterity willing.

    Edit: Consider also the mineral warrior for an LA+1 that gives DR, NA, and can either pump strength and con or at least make up for dumping strength(so one still can get some power attack with one's dex-happy attacks).

    Slightly better-ish DR in the form of Quasilycanthrope for the same LA cost, but worse benefits but without the tradeoffs.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-02-26 at 05:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Another tactic which just uses 1 feat and GP is taking Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop) at level 1 and visiting the wondrous location... I think it was psionic node, which gives you a swift action 10 ft teleport that can be used 7 times a day (or more if you go with a naturally psionic race, Kalashtar works wonders for this one).
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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Best with some way of getting dexterity to damage as well as to hit so that strength can be dropped for the most part.
    If your DM will allow the homebrew Vampire race, then I see no problem with asking him to allow the use of a 3rd party feat. It is called Superior Finesse, and is in the Alderac Entertainment Group book called Feats. It requires expertise (3.0's version of Combat Expertise), and Weapon Finesse, and allows you to use your DEX for To-hit as well as Damage. Always a must for my rogue-like characters.
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    SurlySeraph's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Sample build:
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    Human Vampire 2/ Favored Enemy Variant Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 10. That gives you 4 favored enemies (and so taking Undead as your first, you can get a +8 bonus against them), +14 BAB, +4d6/+3 Skirmish.

    Abilities:
    Str 16 (add +4 level bonuses)
    Dex 16
    Con 10*
    Int 16
    Wis 14
    Cha 8
    *If you're allowed to start with Con 8, reduce Con to 8, reduce Int to 14, and use those points to raise starting Str to 18

    Feats:
    1 Alertness, Dodge**
    3 Combat Reflexes**
    6 Improved Unarmed Strike
    9 Improved Grapple
    12 Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm)
    15 Nemesis (BoED)
    **If your DM doesn't require you to take these, shift the other feats back and take, oh, let's say Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, and Earth's Embrace.

    Strategy: Rush things, hit them, grapple them because Scorpion's Grasp gives you Improved Grab, punch them and drain blood. That's about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Wow great build SurlySeraph! I didn't even know a Favored Enemy variant of Barbarian existed

    It certainly provides me with a useful base to start out with, even if I end up using parts of other's suggestions to finalize the build.

    Although why is there a focus on unarmed strikes? Is it to correlate with the Vampire's natural attacks?

    EDIT: Is it possible to fit in slashing weapons into such a build?
    Last edited by JKTrickster; 2011-02-26 at 06:18 PM.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Quote Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
    Although why is there a focus on unarmed strikes? Is it to correlate with the Vampire's natural attacks?

    EDIT: Is it possible to fit in slashing weapons into such a build?
    I think for use in the grapple and for starting a grapple for free with a hit with an unarmed strike. Maybe vampire natural attacks synergy too.

    There's a feat for making unarmed strikes into slashing as well, I can't remember the name offhand though. and I believe you can use a light slashing weapon in a grapple though likely the vampire stuff is just going to outclass anything like that.

    And here's a link to said barbarian variant.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2011-02-26 at 06:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
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    SurlySeraph's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Mostly to to make Blood Drain useful in combat. You could certainly drop the unarmed-oriented feats and feed out of combat; and even if you stay with the unarmed feats you can use light slashing weapons like kukris or handaxes, since you can use them in a grapple.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Oh but thanks I really like the feel of that! Grappling for a vampire seems extremely thematically appropriate. The idea of a stalking Undead hunter who runs up and strangles Vampires to their re-death, literally killing those who cursed him with his own bare hands. Seems really, really nice.

    EDIT: I'll probably change out the Nemesis feat for that feat that improved Skirmish damage (+2d6 for every 20 ft. or something) since this character is far from Exalted

    EDIT2: I realized that your build didn't actually have Swift Hunter
    Last edited by JKTrickster; 2011-02-26 at 07:41 PM.

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    SurlySeraph's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Well, that's embarrassing. You can drop Nemesis for it, or one of the three early feats if your DM allows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

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    Default Re: Swift Hunter MELEE build

    Pouncebarian is even more inevitable for this build than for most melee builds, as others have said.

    At ECL 16, you can afford lots of Anklets of Translocation (teleport 10' as a swift action). Buy a ton of these and swap out a fresh one after each encounter (or convince DM to let you multiply the price and charges per day) so that, even if you're already closer than 10' to your foe (too close to charge), you can teleport AWAY and charge in again!

    Combine this with a Jump mod of at least +19, or an always-flying effect like Wings of Flying (affordable at ECL 16), so that even when you have rough terrain, you can charge.

    And invest in Tumble (scout class skill) to avoid provoking AoOs from movement (if the AoO trips or grapples or bull rushes you it will ruin the charge). I believe the DC 25 tumble check doesn't interfere with a charge, since you are still moving at full speed, but I could be wrong / some DMs may disagree.

    Like every other Swift Hunter, all your favored enemies should be crit-immune types, so that you can skirmish-damage them.
    Last edited by ffone; 2011-02-26 at 08:17 PM.

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