Zceryll

[CycloneJoker]

I understand that Zceryll is really good, but I was wondering why it bumps Binders all the way to tier two. Is there something about the Pseudonatural template than makes them a lot better? Is it just the at-will part? Is is something else?

[The Glyphstone]

The sheer versatility of at-will Summons, essentially. Especially with the expanded lists from various monster manuals and splatbooks, there's a summon with a spell-like, supernatural, or natural ability for almost anything you can think of. Psuedonatural is just icing on the cake.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Many of the higher level summons get a lot of good SLA, for example Ice-devils get Ice Wall at will... so essentially you get Ice Wall at will, plus mindsight is real game-breaker.

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Eurus]

Yeah, and at any given time you have about (class level/5) in play. One giant bug/animal/demon not good enough? How about 2-4?

[CycloneJoker]

Okay, I can see the SLAs, but a Sorcerer seems better than the binder in every way, it appears, as they also get summons. Is that correct, or is there something I'm missing?

[Coidzor]

Okay, I can see the SLAs, but a Sorcerer seems better than the binder in every way, it appears, as they also get summons. Is that correct, or is there something I'm missing?

Sorcerer is probably higher Tier 2, but it's more that Binder with those abilities no longer fits into Tier 3 and doesn't jump up to Tier 1 than whether or not he's better than a Sorcerer.

[Yora]

As a sorcerer you can summon creatures from the summon monster lists. As a binder you can summon the same creatures plus they gain the supernatural template. Which I believe is quite strong.
Also as a sorcerer, you can cast your highest level spells only three or four times per day. As a binder, you can do so without any limit.

And a cooldown of 5 rounds is shorter than the duration of your summoned creatures once you reached 6th level, so your horde of summoned creatures can be constantly growing and you still get 4 out of 5 rounds to do other things. Given some time for preperation or a long lasting battle of multiple encounters, you can summon a rather big horde of beasts.

[Eurus]

Okay, I can see the SLAs, but a Sorcerer seems better than the binder in every way, it appears, as they also get summons. Is that correct, or is there something I'm missing?

They pretty much are, yeah. Infinite summons doesn't make up for the lack of everything else. Personally I think a sorc should land in tier 1 - the main argument for not putting them there is that they get their game-breaking goodies one level later than wizards, but infinity minus 1 is still more or less infinity. The "versatility" problem is overrated, especially with all the ways to work around it (drakehelms, runestaves, scrolls, etc).

[Aharon]

There's also the fact that the Binder get's them at-will, unlike the sorcerer.

Edited Edit:
Didn't see the Complete-Arcane-Pseudonatural Template was explicitly referenced. My bad. I don't think anybody could get the Epic Level Handbook Template on his monsters, then.

[Khatoblepas]

Summon Alien: You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon. Any creature you summon with this ability gains the pseudonatural template. Thus, at 10th level you could summon any creature from the summon monster I-V list. When you reach 14th level, you can summon any creature from the summon monster I-VII list. You can only summon creatures that can be affected by the pseudonatural template. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.

Hello, players, look at your binder, now back to me, now back at your binder, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped using wimpy vestiges and started using Zceryll, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re on a tier with the class your class could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s the entire summon monster list at will with those spells those creatures cast at will. Look again, that ability is now diamonds. Anything is possible when your man smells like a sorcerer and not a Tier 3.

I’m on a Skybleeder.

TL'DR: Every spell a summon monster creature can cast, you can cast, 1/5 rounds without trying. You win the action economy over the sorcerer who has to spend a spell used to get the spell you have, and can only cast it a few times per day.

A binder can cast Summon Alien 2880 times per day.

Endurance? Hah.

[CycloneJoker]

Sorcerer is probably higher Tier 2, but it's more that Binder with those abilities no longer fits into Tier 3 and doesn't jump up to Tier 1 than whether or not he's better than a Sorcerer.

Okay.

As a sorcerer you can summon creatures from the summon monster lists. As a binder you can summon the same creatures plus they gain the supernatural template. Which I believe is quite strong.
Also as a sorcerer, you can cast your highest level spells only three or four times per day. As a binder, you can do so without any limit.

And a cooldown of 5 rounds is shorter than the duration of your summoned creatures once you reached 6th level, so your horde of summoned creatures can be constantly growing and you still get 4 out of 5 rounds to do other things. Given some time for preperation or a long lasting battle of multiple encounters, you can summon a rather big horde of beasts.

5-6, depending on level, +Bonus for Cha.

Okay, I can see that, too.

They pretty much are, yeah. Infinite summons doesn't make up for the lack of everything else. Personally I think a sorc should land in tier 1 - the main argument for not putting them there is that they get their game-breaking goodies one level later than wizards, but infinity minus 1 is still more or less infinity. The "versatility" problem is overrated, especially with all the ways to work around it (drakehelms, runestaves, scrolls, etc).

I'd agree with this as well, but the Elven Generalist laughs REALLY hard at the sorcerer.

[Person_Man]

Several things:

• Psuedonatural template gives you Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, the Outsider type, and other minor perks.
• Bolts of Madness is a Daze effect that lasts 1d3 rounds (Will negates). Almost nothing is immune to Daze, and unlike virtually every other Daze effect, Bolts of Madness lasts for 1d3 rounds and has a huge range.
• Telepathy is an ability that many people give up a caster level to get. It opens up numerous fun roleplaying options and qualifies you for the uber Mindsight feat.
• The +3 to +5 bonus to Mind Affecting effects (ie, most Will Saves) provided by Alien Mind is nothing to sneeze at, given that Binders already have a strong Will Save and various other mental defenses to stack on top of it (plus the SR from the Psuedonatural template).
• Summon Alien is the obvious and most important ability. Take some time to look through the various splat books, especially the Monster Manuals and environment books. There are a lot of alternate Summon tables. You get access to hundreds of different spells, spell-like abilities, psionic abilities, etc. Most importantly, unlike most other casters you don't have a spell list or a spells known. You can basically cast everything that every monster you can summon knows. Infinite healing, teleport, battlefield control, direct damage, etc.
• It's also worth mentioning that anything you Summon gets the Psuedonatural template, and thus has SR, DR, ER, etc.

I'd also mention that the Desharis vestige helps bump up the Binderl, since it grants infinite Animate Objects, which in turn opens up your standard nanobots combo. (You Summon caster level number of Objects. Each Object uses Aid Another, giving you a caster level * 2 bonus to any Skill or attack. Or you can use them to simply "flood the zone" and lock down enemy movement). And there's the Triad, which grant you proficiency with every weapon.

[Draz74]

Personally I think a sorc should land in tier 1 - the main argument for not putting them there is that they get their game-breaking goodies one level later than wizards, but infinity minus 1 is still more or less infinity. The "versatility" problem is overrated, especially with all the ways to work around it (drakehelms, runestaves, scrolls, etc).

I think the Spells Known limitation is the main reason. And yeah, you can play an optimized Sorcerer at Tier 1 level; that's really no different than optimizing a Paladin up to Tier 4 or a Rogue up to Tier 3 (both very doable).

[Douglas]

Personally I think a sorc should land in tier 1 - the main argument for not putting them there is that they get their game-breaking goodies one level later than wizards, but infinity minus 1 is still more or less infinity. The "versatility" problem is overrated, especially with all the ways to work around it (drakehelms, runestaves, scrolls, etc).

Actually, no it isn't. The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is a matter of versatility much more than power. Tier 2 can be just as thoroughly gamebreakingly powerful as Tier 1 with not much effort. The difference is that, while Tier 2 might break the game in 5 ways with one character, Tier 1 will break it in 20 different ways all with the same character. They both break the game, and which one wins in a pure power contest depends a lot more on optimization than Tier, but the Tier 1 guy has a much longer list of different things he can do.

[Person_Man]

Actually, no it isn't. The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is a matter of versatility much more than power. Tier 2 can be just as thoroughly gamebreakingly powerful as Tier 1 with not much effort. The difference is that, while Tier 2 might break the game in 5 ways with one character, Tier 1 will break it in 20 different ways all with the same character. They both break the game, and which one wins in a pure power contest depends a lot more on optimization than Tier, but the Tier 1 guy has a much longer list of different things he can do.

Ditto. Tiers are about resources, not pure power. Plenty of Wizards builds are weaker then low tier classes because of their spell selection.

[Doc Roc]

Thirding the Sorcerer as T1. Our experiences in the Test of Spite mark it as one of the weaker components of the Dark Six, but it's still there. Particularly for certain kinds of action economy breaks, it has some advantages outside the very high tiers of optimization. The use of items, feats, and even tricks to obviate some of the spell-choice issues with sorcerer is fundamental to modern optimization of the class.

Roll 1d6 for class from list below. Snap game in three pieces instead of two.

1 Psion
2 Archivist
3 Artificer
4 Wizard
5 Cleric
6 Sorcerer


I'd love to count Ardent, but I'm just not sure they fit the bill outside of a reading for their class that isn't universally accepted. Likewise with Erudite.

[Zaydos]

Thirding the Sorcerer as T1. Our experiences in the Test of Spite mark it as one of the weaker components of the Dark Six, but it's still there. Particularly for certain kinds of action economy breaks, it has some advantages outside the very high tiers of optimization. The use of items, feats, and even tricks to obviate some of the spell-choice issues with sorcerer is fundamental to modern optimization of the class.

[Psion, Archivist, Artificer, Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer]

What about Druid?

[Doc Roc]

What about Druid?

Hum, that's an interesting one. Druids are certainly strong, and they gain a lot from splats, but I've seen few druid builds that could compete with wizards after level 10, particularly if you don't allow MoMF\Enhanced Wild Shape\Aberrant Wildshape. That said, I think that they probably are still tier one, but I wouldn't count them in the same true weight class outside of some special builds.

Besides, I don't have a d7.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Several things:

• Psuedonatural template gives you Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, the Outsider type, and other minor perks.
• Bolts of Madness is a Daze effect that lasts 1d3 rounds (Will negates). Almost nothing is immune to Daze, and unlike virtually every other Daze effect, Bolts of Madness lasts for 1d3 rounds and has a huge range.
• Telepathy is an ability that many people give up a caster level to get. It opens up numerous fun roleplaying options and qualifies you for the uber Mindsight feat.
• The +3 to +5 bonus to Mind Affecting effects (ie, most Will Saves) provided by Alien Mind is nothing to sneeze at, given that Binders already have a strong Will Save and various other mental defenses to stack on top of it (plus the SR from the Psuedonatural template).
• Summon Alien is the obvious and most important ability. Take some time to look through the various splat books, especially the Monster Manuals and environment books. There are a lot of alternate Summon tables. You get access to hundreds of different spells, spell-like abilities, psionic abilities, etc. Most importantly, unlike most other casters you don't have a spell list or a spells known. You can basically cast everything that every monster you can summon knows. Infinite healing, teleport, battlefield control, direct damage, etc.
• It's also worth mentioning that anything you Summon gets the Psuedonatural template, and thus has SR, DR, ER, etc.

I'd also mention that the Desharis vestige helps bump up the Binderl, since it grants infinite Animate Objects, which in turn opens up your standard nanobots combo. (You Summon caster level number of Objects. Each Object uses Aid Another, giving you a caster level * 2 bonus to any Skill or attack. Or you can use them to simply "flood the zone" and lock down enemy movement). And there's the Triad, which grant you proficiency with every weapon.

It's even better Zceril already gives you mindsight

Telepathy: You gain the telepathy ability with a range of 100 feet (as described on page 316 of the Monster Manual) and the Mindsight feat (as described on page 126 of Lords of Madness).

[Doc Roc]

And if you don't think Mindsight is good, you have another think coming.

Trust me. I mean, that's why it involves telepathy, right? So that you can troll your foes before you murderboat them, right?


No?

Am I just terrible people?

[CycloneJoker]

And if you don't think Mindsight is good, you have another think coming.

Trust me. I mean, that's why it involves telepathy, right? So that you can troll your foes before you murderboat them, right?


No?

Am I just terrible people?

Nah, I've used Telepathy to do some funny things. Like convince someone I was his conscience, and then scam him. Was funny.

[Akal Saris]

I tried that trick with telepathy in 4E with my psion.

"Vurgtulmak! This is your conscience speaking! Do you really want to kill that poor unarmed psion? Wouldn't that be dishonorable?"

It didn't work very well

Getting back to Zceryll, I'd second the opinion that she bumps binders to T2. Tiers are all about flexibility, and its hard to think of a non-combat option that can't be solved by throwing enough summoned creatures' SLAs and weird abilities at it. She's definitely a worthy candidate for Favored Vestige+Rapid Recovery, for +1 to binder level and summoning + bolts of madness once per 4 rounds instead of 5.

[JaronK]

First off, T2 means you've got the same sorts of game breaking power tricks that T1s have, but you just don't get as many and can't adapt them as much. In a single test (like the Test of Spite) a well made T2 ought to perform much like a well made T1... it's just that he won't have the other T1 tricks that the T1 might have.

On Binders specifically, it's two things. The biggest is the sheer number of ridiculous things Zceryll lets you get away with, like spamming divinations (as one of the angels lets you do) or, well, anything else. And you get so many of them that it's nuts. Seriously, it's hard to find every single monster you could summon and every spell like ability on those monsters, but the fact that you get as many as you want (letting you bypass usual 1/day restrictions easily) and can adapt on the fly is pretty neat. You also get Mindsight, otherwise known as "I can't be surprised ever" (mostly). Basically, this is one awesome trick... the kind of stuff that belongs in T2.

But don't forget the other online vestige. I'm blanking on the name but it starts with A and gives you any item creation feat you want. Yay, now you're a mini Artificer! Of course, you either need to be an Anima Mage or have other magic users in the party to work with you, but it's a potent ability to say the least.

As to comparative power with a Sorcerer? Depends on spells chosen, obviously. But there's a reason they're Tiers and not a direct ranking... once you get too close factors like campaign, play style, etc become too big to say "oh, this class is better than that one." But certainly, a Binder making tons of wands and wondrous items while spamming divinations and heals and whatever else might be needed on the fly can hang out with the big boys quite happily.

JaronK

[CycloneJoker]

I tried that trick with telepathy in 4E with my psion.

"Vurgtulmak! This is your conscience speaking! Do you really want to kill that poor unarmed psion? Wouldn't that be dishonorable?"

It didn't work very well

Getting back to Zceryll, I'd second the opinion that she bumps binders to T2. Tiers are all about flexibility, and its hard to think of a non-combat option that can't be solved by throwing enough summoned creatures' SLAs and weird abilities at it. She's definitely a worthy candidate for Favored Vestige+Rapid Recovery, for +1 to binder level and summoning + bolts of madness once per 4 rounds instead of 5.

I'm assuming this Vergtaulmak was some Orc or Goblin.

She's my favorite, and I'd wanted to build a Knight of the Sacred Seal for her (Do they suck, BTW?), just for the funny flavor, for quite a while. Epic Rapid Recovery, BTW.

So it's versatility, not raw power, for tiers 2 and 1?

[Douglas]

So it's versatility, not raw power, for tiers 2 and 1?

Yes. Tier 2 is, essentially, "breaks the game". Tier 1 is, essentially, "breaks the game umpteen different ways simultaneously". They both break the game, Tier 1 just has more choices within a single character for how to break the game.

This assumes a significant degree of optimization, of course. Even a Tier 1 character can suck horribly if poorly built.

[JaronK]

This assumes a significant degree of optimization, of course. Even a Tier 1 character can suck horribly if poorly built.

Specifically, it's "ability to break the game." If you don't do it, you don't do it. But every Wizard has the ability. They just have to memorize a few specific spells (at whatever level they're at) and that's that. The fact that they haven't done so doesn't change that fact.

But yeah, the difference between T2 and T1 is versatility. After all, what can a Wizard do that a Sorcerer designed to do the same can't? But at the same time no one Sorcerer could ever have all the perfect tools for the job that a Wizard does. Sure, a Sorcerer COULD have Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand and use them to one hit TKO a dragon that's 10 CR above him. If he's built that way. And a Sorcerer COULD use Magecraft + Fabricate to build, well, anything he so desired. And a Sorcerer COULD use Animate Dead to build a giant army. But while every Wizard could do all those things, any given Sorcerer is unlikely to be able to do more than one (if any).

JaronK

[Akal Saris]

I'm assuming this Vergtaulmak was some Orc or Goblin.

She's my favorite, and I'd wanted to build a Knight of the Sacred Seal for her (Do they suck, BTW?), just for the funny flavor, for quite a while. Epic Rapid Recovery, BTW.

So it's versatility, not raw power, for tiers 2 and 1?

Yup, he was an orc.

Knight of the Sacred Seal is quite good - you give up very little in return for becoming much more tanky. Even just 1 level gives proficiency in all martial weapons, armors, and standard shields.

For Zceryll, you might want to go Binder 10/KotSS 1/Binder +1/KotSS +4/Binder +4. That way you'd get your level 11 bonus binder feat at character level 12, and could pick up both Favored Vestige and Rapid Recovery for Zceryll.

[CycloneJoker]

Specifically, it's "ability to break the game." If you don't do it, you don't do it. But every Wizard has the ability. They just have to memorize a few specific spells (at whatever level they're at) and that's that. The fact that they haven't done so doesn't change that fact.

But yeah, the difference between T2 and T1 is versatility. After all, what can a Wizard do that a Sorcerer designed to do the same can't? But at the same time no one Sorcerer could ever have all the perfect tools for the job that a Wizard does. Sure, a Sorcerer COULD have Shivering Touch and Spectral Hand and use them to one hit TKO a dragon that's 10 CR above him. If he's built that way. And a Sorcerer COULD use Magecraft + Fabricate to build, well, anything he so desired. And a Sorcerer COULD use Animate Dead to build a giant army. But while every Wizard could do all those things, any given Sorcerer is unlikely to be able to do more than one (if any).

JaronK

Dude, a Sorcerer can just go into Shadowcraft Mage, and then never need another spell again.

[Tvtyrant]

Dude, a Sorcerer can just go into Shadowcraft Mage, and then never need another spell again.

That is because of Shadowcraft Mage, not the Sorcerer. Prestige classes make the tier system insanely complicated, but think of it the other way around; by taking Shadwocraft Mage the wizard gets all of the same advantages on top of what it already has. It really doesn't move anything relative to each other.

Same thing with Malconvoker for example; you can make a Sorc that does calling and summoning, or a wizard that does that and other things.

[CycloneJoker]

And Specialists, Focused Specialists, and Elves stole what little thunder the Sorcerer had, as far as I can tell, in that they have two extra spells per day. What really shafted them, as far as I can tell, is the Metamagic, though.

Also, a Sorcerer can get 9th level spells first. Specifically, when a Wizard is still learning their first 8th level spells.