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    Default Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    The idea here is that the Rogue, while widely considered to be a fine class, is Tier 4. Now, I like Tier 4 as much as anyone, but in the quest to revamp as many of the core classes as I can so that they are Tier 3 in power and versatility, please allow me to present this tweaked Rogue that hopefully lands firmly in the middle of Tier 3 power level. Remember, as a balance point, Warblades and Factotums are excellent examples of Tier 3.

    The Rogue


    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: d8

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Dodge
    1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Trapfinding, Improvisation, Sneak Attack 1d6 +0
    2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion, Poison Use +1
    3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Sneak Attack 2d6 +1
    4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Acrobatic Charge, Uncanny Dodge +2
    5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Sneak Attack 3d6 +2
    6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Improved Evasion +3
    7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Sneak Attack 4d6 +3
    8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Pounce, Improved Uncanny Dodge +4
    9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak Attack 5d6 +4
    10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Special Ability +5
    11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Sneak Attack 6d6 +5
    12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Special Ability +6
    13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak Attack 7d6 +6
    14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Special Ability +7
    15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Sneak Attack 8d6 +7
    16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Special Ability +8
    17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Sneak Attack 9d6 +8
    18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Special Ability +9
    19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak Attack 10d6 +9
    20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Masterful Strike, Special Ability +10

    Class Skills (8 + Int modifier): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Proficiencies: All simple weapons, all light or one-handed martial weapons as well as the shortbow, the longbow, and the hand crossbow. A Rogue is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

    Dodge Bonus: A Rogue gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to 1/2 her class levels rounded down.

    Improvisation: Rogues rely on a keen ability to adapt to nearly any situation with the clarity and fluidity of a scrying pool. Rogues have a number of Improvisation Points equal to twice their class level. Whenever a Rogue would make a d20 roll, she may spend a number of Improvisation Points to gain an equal bonus to her roll; however, she can never gain a bonus to any single roll higher than one-half her class level rounded up. A Rogue's spent Improvisation Points are automatically refreshed once each hour, but unspent points do not add together.

    Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

    The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks from any distance.

    With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She can also use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, by accepting the usual -4 penalty.

    A rogue can sneak attack only creatures with discernible anatomies. Creatures that are immune to critical hits (including undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures) lack vital areas to attack and are not vulnerable to sneak attacks. A rogue must be able to clearly see her targets to pick out vital areas to strike and thus cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or cover.

    However, by spending a number of Improvisation points, the rogue is able to overcome these limitations for the duration of the encounter. The number of points required depends on the challenge rating of the target creature in question, as follows:

    CR 1-4: 1 point
    CR 5-8: 2 points
    CR 9-12: 3 points
    CR 13-16: 4 points
    CR 17-20: 5 points

    A rogue must spend points to overcome her limitations on a case by case basis, and cannot overcome more than one limitation per point expenditure. For example, when she attacks a CR 14 Undead that also benefits from concealment, constituting two limitations, she must spend 8 total Improvisation points if she wishes to sneak attack the creature. For the rest of the encounter, for that CR 14 Undead only, she could sneak attack it regardless of it being Undead or having concealment. Later in the encounter, if she wanted to sneak attack a CR 9 Humanoid benefiting from concealment she would need to spend 3 Improvisation points.

    Trapfinding (Ex): Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

    Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Poison Use (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, Rogues never risk poisoning themselves when dealing with poisons. Further, the save DC of any Poison used by a Rogue is 10+1/2 Rogue level+the higher of the Rogue's Dexterity or Intelligence modifier unless poison's the original save DC is higher.

    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized, paralyzed, or stunned.

    If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Acrobatic Charge (Ex): At 4th level, a rogue gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement, and she may even make up to one 90 degree turn during her charge. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

    Improved Evasion (Ex): Starting at 6th level, this works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

    This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

    If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    Pounce (Ex): Starting at 8th level, when a Rogue makes a charge, she can follow with a full attack.

    Special Abilities: Starting at 10th level a Rogue gains any special ability of her choice from the spoiler below.

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    Ambush (Ex): You suffer no penalties to Hide or Move Silently when moving your normal speed and suffer only a -10 penalty when running, or a -5 penalty when quickly dashing to a hiding place (see PHB 69). Furthermore, during a surprise round you are entitled to either a full round action, or one swift, one move, and one standard action.

    Crippling Strike (Ex): A Rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength or Dexterity damage, at the Rogue's choice, and is Fatigued for 1 round. Crippling Strike cannot worsen a target's condition beyond Fatigued.

    Defensive Roll (Ex): As an immediate action, when you would be targeted by an attack or included in the area of a harmful effect you may make a Tumble check with a DC equal to the attack roll or the saving throw. If you fail, you must avoid the attack with your own AC or saving throw as normal, but if you succeed you may move up to half your speed, attacks miss, and you avoid the area effect for 1 round even if you are still within the area. This movement doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

    Diverse Talents: You may select any class feature from another base class that any character up to your Rogue level -2 would have and gain that class feature as a special ability. You are treated as a member of that class of a level equal to your Rogue level -2 for determining the effectiveness of the feature, but you do not gain any upgrades for the class feature if the upgrades are listed as a separate class feature (such as Greater Rage or Wild Shape (Large)). If the selected class feature has a number of uses per day you gain only 1 use per day. The selected class feature must be from the Special column of a base class table. You may choose this special ability any number of times.

    Insightful Breach (Ex): You may spend 4 improvisation points to allow yourself and all allies within 60ft to ignore a single foe's Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Spell Resistance, and Spell Immunity for 1 round.

    Insightful Cunning (Ex): You must possess the Insightful Breach special ability to choose this special ability. Once during your turn, you may spend 8 improvisation points to gain an additional standard action.

    Opportunist (Ex): Whenever you hit a foe with an attack of opportunity you add your Sneak Attack damage to the attack even if the foe isn't flatfooted and you aren't flanking it (but not if the creature cannot be sneak attacked). Further, anytime an ally hits a foe within your reach with an attack, that foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

    Skill Mastery (Ex): A Rogue with this special ability may take 10 with any skill she has at least 1 rank in. She may still use her Improvisation points to improve this "roll."

    Slippery Mind (Ex): You may use your Reflex save in place of your Will save against all Mind-Afflicting effects. Furthermore, whenever you make a successful Reflex save against a Mind-Afflicting effect which offers a save of partial or half you instead suffer no ill effects.

    Advanced Toxicology (Ex): Poisons you use may effect creatures that are normally immune; however, such creatures have a +4 bonus to resist their effects. Against creatures that are not immune to poison, the save DCs of poisons you use is increased by 2.

    Virulent Blade (Ex): Whenever you coat a weapon with contact or injury poison, the poison retains its potency for up to two separate attacks at your option. This does not dilute the effectiveness of the poison whatsoever.

    *Steal Divinity (Su): You must possess the True Believer feat to select this special ability.

    A number of times per day equal to 3+Your Intelligence modifier you may use the Channel Divinity feature as a Cleric except that you may channel energy of any type and are not limited by your alignment. You may use this ability as a swift action.

    *Relevant Channel Divinity text below (from a Tier 3 Cleric Remix)
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    Channel Divinity (Su): Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

    A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures and to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures and to heal undead creatures. A chaotic cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a chaotic deity) channels raw anarchic energy which can accelerate her allies and bring catastrophe to her foes. A lawful cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a lawful deity) channels raw axiomatic energy bolstering her allies' defenses and crippling her foes (see spoiler below). A Lawful Evil Cleric, for example, may choose to channel axiomatic energy or negative energy each time she uses this ability.

    A neutral cleric of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose which type of energy she wishes to channel. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.

    Channeling divinity is a standard action which causes a burst that affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A cleric may channel divinity a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect. A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.

    Spoiler
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    Positive energy channeled in this way heals living allies in the burst for 1d6 hit points +1d6/two Cleric levels and deals an equal amount of damage to undead foes in the burst.

    Negative energy channeled in this way heals undead allies in the burst for 1d6 hit points +1d6/ two Cleric levels and deals an equal amount of damage to living foes in the burst.

    Anarchic energy channeled in this way grants allies in the burst an extra move action which they may take anytime before the end of your turn, and forces enemies in the burst to reroll the next d20 roll they make before the beginning of your next turn, forcing them to take the worst roll.

    Axiomatic energy channeled in this way grants allies a perfection bonus to AC and saving throws equal to 1+1/4 the cleric's class level for 1 round. Enemies caught in within the burst move at half their normal speeds. This effect lasts 1 round.


    Steal Spell (Sp): You must possess the Mage Slayer feat to select this special ability.

    You have an innate knack for knowing which of your foes are spellcasters. Whenever you would deal sneak attack damage to an enemy, if it can cast spells or use spell-like abilities you are aware of the highest level of spell or spell-like ability they possess. You may sacrifice any number of sneak attack dice in order to deprive your foe of the ability to cast spells or use spell-like abilities of a level up to the number of dice sacrificed in this way for 1d4 rounds.

    You must choose to deprive your foe of either the ability to cast spells OR the ability to use spell-like abilities, but not both. Also, the struck foe is entitled to a Will save (DC 12+1/2 Rogue level+the higher of the Rogue's Dexterity or Intelligence modifiers) to resist this effect.

    If you do, you gain full knowledge of all spells or spell-like abilities your foe possesses up to that level, and during those 1d4 rounds, as a standard action you may cast or use any of those spells or spell-like abilities. You are required to provide the necessary components or spend any necessary XP, but you do not suffer any arcane spell failure from armor you wear. After the duration, your foe gains his spellcasting ability back, but loses spell slots or uses per day equivalent to the spells or spell-like abilities you used in this way.

    Wandslinger (Ex): You may activate any wand you possess capable of producing a spell with a ranged touch attack as an attack action rather than a standard action, and you may apply any feats you possess that interact with weapons to the ranged touch attack spells of wands you wield. For example, at 10th level, with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat you may wield two wands and make three attacks each round with the spells at +5/+5/+0 (before modifiers). This ability requires you to expend a wand's charges with each activation as normal.


    Masterful Strike (Ex): A 20th level Rogue is able to attack her foes in such amazingly confounding ways that each time she hits a foe and deals Sneak Attack damage she causes terrible, compounding ailments.

    The first time in a round when she deals Sneak Attack damage she may cause the foe to become Entangled, Exhausted, or Staggered for 1 round.

    The second time in a round when she consecutively deals Sneak Attack damage to the same foe she may cause the foe to be knocked prone and dazed for 1 round, or be Paralyzed for 1 round.

    The third time in a round when she consecutively deals Sneak Attack damage to the same foe she may cause the foe to be knocked unconscious for 3d6x10 minutes, or be immediately slain (this is a Death effect).

    There is no saving throw to resist the effects of Masterful Strike.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2015-04-22 at 02:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    I would throw trap sense back in there so people can take the Spell Sense ACF from Complete Mage that allows them to get the bonus when dodging the effects of spells and spell-like abilities.
    Last edited by Andion Isurand; 2011-03-01 at 02:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    I'd suggest either letting you sneak attack anything, or maybe some kind of feint that makes the target flatfooted for an attack.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Andion Isurand View Post
    I would throw trap sense back in there so people can take the Spell Sense ACF from Complete Mage that allows them to get the bonus when dodging the effects of spells and spell-like abilities.
    Don't see this happening. I don't like the idea of adding in an unexciting, subpar class feature just so people could then automatically switch it out for a more optimal class feature. Improvisation ought to do plenty to round out the Rogue's saves when she needs it to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I'd suggest either letting you sneak attack anything, or maybe some kind of feint that makes the target flatfooted for an attack.
    If you read closely I did make several concessions to Sneak Attack. They can make ranged sneak attacks from any distance, they can do nonlethal sneak attacks with any weapon they want, and they can sneak attack undead, constricts, and anything immune to criticals so long as it isn't also specifically immune to Sneak Attack. They still can't sneak attack oozes and plants, but then, how do you find a weak spot to strike against something that is homogenous throughout?
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    If you read closely I did make several concessions to Sneak Attack. They can make ranged sneak attacks from any distance, they can do nonlethal sneak attacks with any weapon they want, and they can sneak attack undead, constricts, and anything immune to criticals so long as it isn't also specifically immune to Sneak Attack. They still can't sneak attack oozes and plants, but then, how do you find a weak spot to strike against something that is homogenous throughout?
    Well, I can't think of any reason an undead/construct would have that specific immunity, considering they have blanket immunity, so that's kind of unhelpful. What's more, plants and oozes are a pretty big weak spot for a 20th level character. How do you sneak attack them? One hundred percent sheer badassery, that's how.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Well, I can't think of any reason an undead/construct would have that specific immunity, considering they have blanket immunity, so that's kind of unhelpful.
    I don't know if I wrote it wrong, or am explaining it poorly, but this Rogue can sneak attack undead and constructs. How is that not helpful?

    What's more, plants and oozes are a pretty big weak spot for a 20th level character. How do you sneak attack them? One hundred percent sheer badassery, that's how.
    I mean, I agree that having a couple creature types that you just can't sneak attack is kind of lame, but like I said, I kept the Rogue from sneak attacking those simply because it makes no sense. If I'm going to justify a class feature as "sheer badassery" I could as easily just give the Rogue Wish as a spell-like ability at will. His skill at bluffing is so amazingly badass that he can fool reality into rewriting itself!
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I don't know if I wrote it wrong, or am explaining it poorly, but this Rogue can sneak attack undead and constructs. How is that not helpful?

    I mean, I agree that having a couple creature types that you just can't sneak attack is kind of lame, but like I said, I kept the Rogue from sneak attacking those simply because it makes no sense. If I'm going to justify a class feature as "sheer badassery" I could as easily just give the Rogue Wish as a spell-like ability at will. His skill at bluffing is so amazingly badass that he can fool reality into rewriting itself!
    It is helpful, but there's no point mentioning 'unless they are specifically immune.' Cause they won't be.

    Now, see, bluffing reality is pretty cool. If Wish weren't overpowered, I could go for that. (shrug)
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    ... How does sneak attacking an undead (which is propelled by magic and thus less reliant upon specific physical form) make more sense than sneak attacking a plant, which has actual weak points (plants have veins, y'know)?
    I can understand oozes; pudding doesn't really have a point you can hit it to do more damage. But plants making less sense than undead? A creature type, I'd like to point out, that includes this.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    It is helpful, but there's no point mentioning 'unless they are specifically immune.' Cause they won't be.
    I figure, I might as well throw that in for completeness, because there's probably something out there that's specifically immune to sneak attack. I'd almost guarantee it.

    Quote Originally Posted by absolmorph View Post
    ... How does sneak attacking an undead (which is propelled by magic and thus less reliant upon specific physical form) make more sense than sneak attacking a plant, which has actual weak points (plants have veins, y'know)?
    I can understand oozes; pudding doesn't really have a point you can hit it to do more damage. But plants making less sense than undead? A creature type, I'd like to point out, that includes this.
    Hrm. Touché.

    I'll change it so that the Rogue can sneak attack anything that isn't specifically immune to sneak attack, or that can't be flatfooted or flanked. So, yes, if you can catch an Ooze flatfooted (it makes sense if you don't think about it) you can sneak attack it.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    How about if rogues make an appropriate knowlege check and dip into their improvisation pool they can figure out how to sneak attack those monsters that would be otherwise immune ie undead, plants, constructs?

    Also, class looks good so far.
    Last edited by Mayhem; 2011-03-01 at 06:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    So... Technically, you could sneak attack a door with this?

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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
    So... Technically, you could sneak attack a door with this?
    I don't think objects can be flanked or become flat-footed. I would hope not...

    Even if the rules allow that objects can be flanked or become flat-footed it makes no difference as Sneak Attack clearly says that, "A rogue can sneak attack any creature that isn't specifically immune to sneak attacks, and that can be flanked or become flatfooted."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem
    How about if rogues make an appropriate knowlege check and dip into their improvisation pool they can figure out how to sneak attack those monsters that would be otherwise immune ie undead, plants, constructs?
    This isn't a bad idea, but then I'd need to give them Knowledge (any, taken separately) and I wasn't planning on it. What if they can just do it by dipping into their Improvisation pool without needing to make any skill checks? And how much should this ability cost? 1 point per attack? 2 points per monster type per encounter?
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Does the new defensive roll seem a bit powerful to anybody else?

    Seeing as skill checks are so much easier to maximize than AC or Saving Throws, I'm basically reading it as giving immunity to 1 attack/area effect per round and giving you a move action without spending even so much as an immediate action to get it. Even stronger, this thing pretty much grants immunity to all melee attacks from a single creature each round as that movement will take you out of reach.

    I somewhat dislike pounce here but it isn't specifically because the rogue doesn't need it. Instead, it strikes me as something of a mandatory ability that all melee-ers must possess. If rebuilding all melee classes to be tier 3, I can picture all of them getting pounce or some similar ability at level 8 or 6. We've pretty much gotten to the point where t3 melee generally (see duskblade for exception) requires this ability so its more of a "melee feature" than a class feature. I've become so jaded that actually seeing it on the class table seems... it's kind of like seeing class skills or iterative attacks listed as a "class feature".[/weird rant]
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Does the new defensive roll seem a bit powerful to anybody else?

    Seeing as skill checks are so much easier to maximize than AC or Saving Throws, I'm basically reading it as giving immunity to 1 attack/area effect per round and giving you a move action without spending even so much as an immediate action to get it. Even stronger, this thing pretty much grants immunity to all melee attacks from a single creature each round as that movement will take you out of reach.
    Hrm... it could definitely cost an immediate action, that's a good point. Still, beyond that I don't see it being tremendously powerful. That's the sort of thing Tier 3s do on a regular basis.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Hrm... it could definitely cost an immediate action, that's a good point. Still, beyond that I don't see it being tremendously powerful. That's the sort of thing Tier 3s do on a regular basis.
    *Takes a brief look at tier 3 classes*

    What are you referring to? What tier 3 class makes itself completely immune to harm 1/round? This ability is most akin to wings of cover or lesser celerity, very powerful spells usable by tier 2-1 casters.

    The closest thing to this ability that may or may not be in (high) tier 3 is the flicker mystery, which grants movement + a 50% miss chance 1/round instead of insta-dodge and (as a mystery) has limited uses per day. The similar ability that (tier 3) factotums possess is also usable once per day.

    What reference point are you using here?
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    What are you referring to? What tier 3 class makes itself completely immune to harm 1/round?
    Wow, hyperbole. It enables you to, with great likelyhood (but NOT automatically), avoid ONE attack, maybe even a full-attack (gasp!) or one area effect. That's not even close to immune to all harm for 1 round.

    The closest thing to this ability that may or may not be in (high) tier 3 is the flicker mystery, which grants movement + a 50% miss chance 1/round instead of insta-dodge and (as a mystery) has limited uses per day.
    The closest thing to this ability would be several Warblade maneuvers. Diamond Mind offers three low-level maneuvers that replace, in this order, Will saves, Reflex saves, and Fortitude saves. Iron Heart offers two low-level maneuvers, the first that replaces his AC with an attack roll, the second that frees him from any effect.

    The Warblade can avoid targeted Fort and Will effects, and can ignore area effects with Iron Heart Surge. The Rogue, 5 levels later, can ignore one attack or one area effect targeting her and get half a move action. The Warblade can ignore/defy more varied and more debilitating things, but the Rogue gets some movement. The Warblade is probably winning out.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Ahh... that would explain it. I had entirely forgotten about the warblade. Now everything seems to make pretty good sense.

    *facepalms*

    Good work on this class, by the way.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    My initial thoughts on the Rogue's capstone ability:

    Masterful Strike (Ex): A 20th level Rogue is able to attack her foes in such amazingly confounding ways that each time she hits a foe and deals Sneak Attack damage she causes terrible, compounding ailments.

    The first time in a round when she deals Sneak Attack damage she may cause the foe to become Entangled, Exhausted, or Staggered for 1 round.

    The second time in a round when she consecutively deals Sneak Attack damage to the same foe she may cause the foe to be knocked prone and dazed for 1 round, or be Paralyzed for 1 round.

    The third time in a round when she consecutively deals Sneak Attack damage to the same foe she may cause the foe to be knocked unconscious for 3d6 times 10 minutes, or be immediately slain.

    There is no saving throw to resist the effects of Masterful Strike.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    ... How do you entangle someone with a Sneak Attack?

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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    There's nothing particularly wrong with that capstone but it kind of forces DMs to plan around it, which can be a teensy bit annoying. If a rogue is gaining any benefit from it at all, there is a good chance that a noncaster target is either being killed or being put into an endless lock.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Herpestidae View Post
    ... How do you entangle someone with a Sneak Attack?
    As long as you don't imagine the Rogue as literally tying the target up, the mechanics themselves work just fine. You've got the same movement penalties as Fatigued, a -4 penalty to Dexterity, and a Concentration thingy for spells. Look at it like the Rogue is making her enemy trip over itself, or like the Rogue has wounded them in a way that is severely distracting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    There's nothing particularly wrong with that capstone but it kind of forces DMs to plan around it, which can be a teensy bit annoying. If a rogue is gaining any benefit from it at all, there is a good chance that a noncaster target is either being killed or being put into an endless lock.
    Even full BAB classes have to optimize to hit enemies with their second iterative, making it even harder for the Rogue to daze lock foes. Further, many, many, many non-caster type enemies are immune to paralysis and death effects entirely, and some are even immune to daze and unconsciousness (though those are admittedly much rarer). I don't think a daze lock, requiring two successive Sneak Attack hits is too much to ask, considering a Warblade or Crusader could be Stunlocking people all day at 15th level onward with White Raven Hammer.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Hmm true needing to take knowlege:religion and knowlege:arcana just to circumvent your sneak penalty would be extremely lame to say the least. Mind you, the party wizard/cleric could always make the check for you but yeah just dipping into the improvisation pool would be better.

    Oh wait, knowlege:dungeoneering would also work I believe. In any case, you could set a DC to improvise a weakness, and the rogue can spend points to improve that roll right? Party members can also chip in with aid another if you do it that way, which is pretty cool I think. You could also just make a set number of improv. points to spend as you said, but I have no idea how to balance that.

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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Not balance issues, just clarification questions for now:

    Insightful Breech - what kind of action does this require?

    Opportunist - any limit to the # of times this is allowed per round outside of your limit for AoO/round?

    Diverse Talents - can i choose 'spellcasting'?

    Steal Spell - might want to include that the rogue needs to still have the requirements and pay for xp costs himself (wish i am looking at you!)

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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Noblesse View Post
    Insightful Breech - what kind of action does this require?
    None.

    Opportunist - any limit to the # of times this is allowed per round outside of your limit for AoO/round?
    Nope. The once per round limit is a big reason why the original Opportunist ability sucked.

    Diverse Talents - can i choose 'spellcasting'?
    The "rules as intended" answer is no, but I have no idea what the "rules as written" answer is. I suppose I must specify further, so that you may only choose class features from the Special column of a class table.

    Steal Spell - might want to include that the rogue needs to still have the requirements and pay for xp costs himself (wish i am looking at you!)
    I disagree, personally. Maybe the XP cost, but requiring components, especially costly ones, would make the ability nearly worthless.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Even full BAB classes have to optimize to hit enemies with their second iterative, making it even harder for the Rogue to daze lock foes.
    Exhausting a foe means giving them -6 Dex (-3 AC or -4 if you have crippling strike and target dex)) so the second attack only really takes a -2 penalty from the first. Likewise, knocking a foe down gives them -4 AC against melee attacks (with another possible -1 from crippling strike) and thus means the third attack effectively only suffers a -1 penalty from the second.
    Edit: Even worse than dazing a foe (though more situational), paralyzing one reduces their Dex to 0. If the opponent still has even 10 Dex left after exhaustion, that means a -5 penalty to AC.

    Also, remembering that rogues are renowned as two-weapon fighters, those extra 3 attacks make it quite likely that you'll hit with at least one more. Also don't forget the likely +2 bonus from invisibility/flanking and the additional +2 bonus that you might be getting from a charge attack on top of that.

    Also keep in mind that a rogue could concievably retain their improvisation points (which is possible when you consider that they haven't really needed them so far, though they are a genius mechanic ) and get a +10 bonus to three attacks and one more with an off-hand weapon, getting bonuses better than a normal full-BAB attacker.

    Likewise, as the attacks need only be made within the same round, opportunist shenanegans kick in (especially as they add in sneak attack damage regardless of circumstances) to ake things crazier, as do AoOs provoked as opponents knocked prone stand up.

    Don't forget that one of your special abilities also deals with wands, either. Give a couple wands with lesser orbs (or other touch attack spells) to the PCs and getting a full attack of sneak attacks becomes shockingly easy.

    As an example, let's look at the CR 20 Balor: 35 AC
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    We have a rogue using a +5 Bow with only 20 Dex making a full attack against it. Uses 10 points of improvisation on first attack
    1d20+35 probably hits (missing only on a natural 1).
    Balor is now exhausted and takes 2 Dex damage from crippling strike: AC 31.
    Another attack roll with 10 points of improvisation.
    1d20+30 probably hits (missing only on a natural 1).
    Balor is now paralyzed and thus takes an additional -8 penalty to AC: AC 23
    Another attack roll with 10 points of improvisation.
    1d20+25 probably hits (missing only on a natural 1)
    Belor is slain (and explodes, not that you care as you possess improved evasion).
    The rogue has just slain a CR 20 creature on its own in a single round with no degree of optimization and almost no chance of failure whatsoever. All that he needs to do is win the initiative (or ambush him)



    Even with one hit, however, you can still stagger foes from a far range with an arrow or bolt, making it impossible for a melee crusher to ever reach you and establishing a one-person lock in this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Further, many, many, many non-caster type enemies are immune to paralysis and death effects entirely, and some are even immune to daze and unconsciousness (though those are admittedly much rarer).
    I don't know if this effect was intended to be a death effect but as there is no text anywhere describing it as a death effect, it currently works on constructs and undead like everyone else.
    Also, I just checked and elementals, oozes, plants, undead, and constructs are all vulnerable to daze (though I'll tke your word for it that at least a couple of creatures do have immunity as that seems familiar).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I don't think a daze lock, requiring two successive Sneak Attack hits is too much to ask, considering a Warblade or Crusader could be Stunlocking people all day at 15th level onward with White Raven Hammer.
    Unless there is some mechanic that I don't know which allows someone to both use and refresh maneuvers each turn (Is there?), having such a stunlock (at least with one person) doesn't seem possible. Even if that is the case, however, a stunlock (which entire types of creatures are immune to) isn't quite like a dazelock (which only a small handful of creatures might be immune to).

    On other topics...

    why would requiring material components and foci make things useless?
    A good many spells have no form of material components at all and at least in a few cases, matierial components and foci are actually used by the spell (consider the material component of the fabricate spell, for example). How does outing a relatively small selection of spells make the entire ability worthless?
    I mean, it's not like you're stealing a single spell that might be worthless to you if you can't pay its cost. You are stealing a huge number of spells and have a short time to use them so you shouldn't run out of "free" spells.
    Also, not requiring components would allow rogues to hit allies in order to cast spells "for free", which I doubt was your intention.

    Also...

    Why did you label sneak attack as extraordinary? I know that this sounds kind of odd but it doesn't have any tag whatsoever in the PHB. Is there any reason for the change.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2011-03-02 at 01:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Also keep in mind that a rogue could concievably retain their improvisation points (which is possible when you consider that they haven't really needed them so far, though they are a genius mechanic ) and get a +10 bonus to three attacks and one more with an off-hand weapon, getting bonuses better than a normal full-BAB attacker.
    Yep. I completely forgot about the Improv points when I made the comment from before about how they will have a hard time hitting. Now, that's an example of going nova, though, which will only get the Rogue so far, but it's still a valid point.

    Likewise, as the attacks need only be made within the same round, opportunist shenanegans kick in (especially as they add in sneak attack damage regardless of circumstances) to ake things crazier, as do AoOs provoked as opponents knocked prone stand up.
    Right, which I intended, I just may have gone slightly overboard.

    Don't forget that one of your special abilities also deals with wands, either. Give a couple wands with lesser orbs (or other touch attack spells) to the PCs and getting a full attack of sneak attacks becomes shockingly easy.
    And then there's this... lol.

    As an example, let's look at the CR 20 Balor: 35 AC
    Spoiler
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    We have a rogue using a +5 Bow with only 20 Dex making a full attack against it. Uses 10 points of improvisation on first attack
    1d20+35 probably hits (missing only on a natural 1).
    Balor is now exhausted and takes 2 Dex damage from crippling strike: AC 31.
    Another attack roll with 10 points of improvisation.
    1d20+30 probably hits (missing only on a natural 1).
    Balor is now paralyzed and thus takes an additional -8 penalty to AC: AC 23
    Another attack roll with 10 points of improvisation.
    1d20+25 probably hits (missing only on a natural 1)
    Belor is slain (and explodes, not that you care as you possess improved evasion).
    The rogue has just slain a CR 20 creature on its own in a single round with no degree of optimization and almost no chance of failure whatsoever. All that he needs to do is win the initiative (or ambush him)
    Well, his AC will be 4 points higher due to Unholy Aura, but yeah, that's a pretty one-sided scenario, and with wands it gets even worse. I may have to re-evaluate some things. I could've sworn Balors were immune to Death and Paralysis, but I guess I was very wrong.

    Even with one hit, however, you can still stagger foes from a far range with an arrow or bolt, making it impossible for a melee crusher to ever reach you and establishing a one-person lock in this way.
    See, that seems fine to me, though. Especially because you still have to be able to sneak attack. And, actually, in the above example, the Rogue has to either be flanking or catch the Balor flat-footed, putting him in a precarious situation as it is.

    I don't know if this effect was intended to be a death effect but as there is no text anywhere describing it as a death effect, it currently works on constructs and undead like everyone else.
    Ah, yes, it is intended to be a Death effect. I was thinking about that today at work, whether I even needed to state that certain abilities were Death effects or if creatures that are immune to Death effects were just immune to any effect that would render them immediately slain. They are in fact, not, so I must specify.

    Also, I just checked and elementals, oozes, plants, undead, and constructs are all vulnerable to daze (though I'll tke your word for it that at least a couple of creatures do have immunity as that seems familiar).
    Yeah, I just meant specific monsters.

    Unless there is some mechanic that I don't know which allows someone to both use and refresh maneuvers each turn (Is there?), having such a stunlock (at least with one person) doesn't seem possible.
    Well, I suppose not. Not many sane DMs are not going to allow a Warblade to White Raven Hammer an enemy, White Raven Tactics himself, refresh his maneuvers, and then on his next turn, before the enemy has gotten the chance to recover from Stun, White Raven Hammer it again.

    Even if that is the case, however, a stunlock (which entire types of creatures are immune to) isn't quite like a dazelock (which only a small handful of creatures might be immune to).
    Agreed. The thing to remember is that the Rogue doesn't just get her Masterful Strikes completely at-will on any attack she ever makes. She has to be sneak attacking. With ranged attacks this means being hidden from her enemy, which is hard. With melee attacks this means flanking, which has all sorts of other issues (terrain, party members, initiative, enemy forces, etc). Taking that into consideration, some of the Rogue's Special Abilities and her Masterful Strike may still need to be nerfed some, but I'll have to playtest it.

    On other topics...

    why would requiring material components and foci make things useless?
    A good many spells have no form of material components at all and at least in a few cases, matierial components and foci are actually used by the spell (consider the material component of the fabricate spell, for example). How does outing a relatively small selection of spells make the entire ability worthless?
    I mean, it's not like you're stealing a single spell that might be worthless to you if you can't pay its cost. You are stealing a huge number of spells and have a short time to use them so you shouldn't run out of "free" spells.
    Also, not requiring components would allow rogues to hit allies in order to cast spells "for free", which I doubt was your intention.
    That's a good point about having a large number of spells to choose from, so even if you can't use ones with costly components or foci, you still can probably cast something cool. I think I'm convinced. Plus, the idea of a Rogue carrying around a spell component pouch, and other strange, expensive components is appealing. I've always had a soft spot for Rogues who pretend to be Wizards.

    Why did you label sneak attack as extraordinary? I know that this sounds kind of odd but it doesn't have any tag whatsoever in the PHB. Is there any reason for the change.
    Huh. That's weird. I'm very, very perplexed as to why it has no tag. I'm leaving it tagged as an (Ex) ability because it is one.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    \Huh. That's weird. I'm very, very perplexed as to why it has no tag. I'm leaving it tagged as an (Ex) ability because it is one.
    My understanding was that extraordinary abilities are incapable of effecting incorporeal creatures. As such, it would be impossible to make an extraordinary sneak attack against them, even with ghost touch weapons.
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    The first thing that jumped out to me was ranged sneak attack at any range.

    Now, while I do agree that 30 feet is a trivial and much too short range, any range seems just as extreme. Ten range increments for a good ranged weapon is over 1000 feet (without far shot), and you still have a -20 to hit, which makes the idea of hitting a specific area a bit silly.

    How about saying that you can use sneak attack from up to X range increments away instead of any range?
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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The first thing that jumped out to me was ranged sneak attack at any range.

    Now, while I do agree that 30 feet is a trivial and much too short range, any range seems just as extreme. Ten range increments for a good ranged weapon is over 1000 feet (without far shot), and you still have a -20 to hit, which makes the idea of hitting a specific area a bit silly.
    By the existing rules, hitting a specific area is as easy as hitting. So if you're good enough to hit someone over 1000ft away you're good enough to headshot them.

    This is generally called "sniping".
    Last edited by Prime32; 2011-03-02 at 09:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Tier 3 Rogue Remix

    Well, not exactly. After all, by canon rules, you can't do it from over 30 feet away. And there's various kinds of special strikes in different rulebooks, e.g. ambush feats.

    Also, just because it's in the normal rules doesn't mean we have to keep it.
    Last edited by Eldan; 2011-03-02 at 09:34 AM.
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