Tier 3 Rogue Remix

[Prime32]

Also, just because it's in the normal rules doesn't mean we have to keep it.

You want to nerf sneak attack so that it only takes effect if you succeed on the attack roll by 4 or more?

[Eldan]

Not like that, no.

I am not nerfing sneak attack. Nerfing would be keeping the max 30 feet rule and then adding more limitations on it.

What I'm suggesting is that the improvement outlined here might go too far.


Edit: Actually... "beating AC by four or more points" is an interesting idea. Replacing "loses dexterity" with this means that you can probably sneak more often, overall, while still having an interest in lowering the opponent's AC by making him flanked, flat-footed or similar conditions.

[Soren Hero]

Spoiler

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Diverse Talents (Ex): You may select any class feature from another base class that any character up to your Rogue level -2 would have and gain that class feature as a special ability. If the selected class feature has a number of uses per day you gain only 1 use per day. The selected class feature must be from the Special column of a base class table. You may choose this special ability any number of times.

Diverse Talents seems like an awesome class ability, but you might want to add some more restrictions and/or clarifications. Some abilities are much more powerful than others as an Ex ability. For example, a level 15 rogue qualifies for a druid's Thousand Faces ability, which for the Druid is an Su, and the ability is at-will (which may count as infinite uses per day). The 1 use per day limitation is a good start, but some abilities are always active (thank god Spellcasting isn't listed as a Special Ability).

Additionally, you should clarify graduated abilities, such as a Druid's Wildshape ability which becomes more powerful as the Druid level's up. Does a level 20 rogue qualify for wildshape as a level 18 Druid? Or does it only get the first instance of wildshape if chooses the ability once? I assume the latter, but the language suggests a "class feature equal to Rogue level-2", and the level 18 wildshape ability meets this criteria.


all that being said, i would play as a Rogue with a high charisma (for UMD purposes) taking Skill Mastery, Diverse Talents (Divine Grace), Wand Slinger, Steal Spell, and Slippery Mind. I take ten on all UMD attempts on wands modified by Wand Slinger, and if sneak attacking I can steal spell, for offense. Defensively, my will save is covered by my Reflex save, which is then boosted by my charisma (via Divine Grace). this isn't SUPER CHEESY OPTIMIZED, but Im sure the playground could do much better

[Eldan]

I'd model that ability much closer to the factotum's brilliance (I think that was the name). Ex abilities only.

[Ziegander]

I'd model that ability much closer to the factotum's brilliance (I think that was the name). Ex abilities only.

Might be a good idea, I don't know why I tagged Diverse Talents itself as (Ex). For now I'll just ditch the tag and clarify it some more.

[Roderick_BR]

I took a quickly look overal, and I like it. I did thought about giving him a bigger HD (leaving the bard with d6 since he's a partial caster) and a bonus to AC, though this one feels a bit too much (he dodges better than the monk!)

I guess the improvisation is based on the factotum's abilitiy. It feels a bit weird to have an ability to give yourself a bonus to a skill of up to half your class level, plus the micromanagement aspect, but I like the idea to spend points to sneak attack cratures otherwise immune.
For the distance debate, allow rogues to spend points to increase range?

[Elfstone]

Are improvisation points granted based on levels in the rogue class or total class levels?

[Ziegander]

Are improvisation points granted based on levels in the rogue class or total class levels?

From the SRD:

Level
"Character level" is a character’s total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.

"Class level" is a character’s level in a particular class. For a character whose levels are all in the same class, character level and class level are the same.

Which means that Improvisation points are granted based on levels in the Rogue class.

[Pechvarry]

Really digging this rogue re-write. Things I'm iffy on:

The "any range" sneak attack, once again. I know it makes things more confusing, but I feel like "sneak attack out to 60 feet, plus an additional 30' for every improvisation point spent" would work well enough.

Pounce made me wince. This is on the class purely for power needs, despite having no thematic fit. I'm sure many rogues DO charge, but it goes in the same department as Knights with spiked chains: a necessary evil for performance; not what you want your character to be doing. I'd suggest coming up with something similar. Perhaps something like "When using a standard action to make a sneak attack, if your first hit succeeds, you're entitled to all iterative attacks as if making a full round action." Which would need some work to account for TWF penalties and abusability with the +standard action feature. Regardless, something to take the "charge" out of it.

Would also like to see a method of feinting better (move action, or swift if you have Improved Feint). It always bothered me that the only ways I know of to feint + full attack are 5 levels of a subpar prestige class and 6 levels in a base class that has no business being in the melee.

Also like that your base rules for Improvisation are ripped straight from the Bard Improvisation spell.

[Ziegander]

Pounce made me wince. This is on the class purely for power needs, despite having no thematic fit. I'm sure many rogues DO charge, but it goes in the same department as Knights with spiked chains: a necessary evil for performance; not what you want your character to be doing. I'd suggest coming up with something similar. Perhaps something like "When using a standard action to make a sneak attack, if your first hit succeeds, you're entitled to all iterative attacks as if making a full round action." Which would need some work to account for TWF penalties and abusability with the +standard action feature. Regardless, something to take the "charge" out of it.

I don't see any way Pounce doesn't have a thematic fit. In fact, I didn't put it on "purely for power needs" AT ALL. I've never put Pounce on any class before, and I've written TONS of melee classes. If there is any class more built to play like a predatory cat than a Rogue, stalking its prey, and slaying it quickly and quietly, I'd like to know what it is. Yes, Pounce is powerful, but I wouldn't have put it on the class table if it didn't fit thematically. I'm kind of shocked and appalled that everybody just automatically groans at it without seeing the blatant flavor behind it.

Also like that your base rules for Improvisation are ripped straight from the Bard Improvisation spell.

One of my favorite parts.

[Pechvarry]

I guess I understand the stalking cat angle, but I just see that we already have the knight making a triumphant charge, a barbarian's feral charge, etc. I guess I don't like to think of rogues as chargers. Still, point taken.

Perhaps Pounce should be a rogue special ability, so people could choose it if they charge as opposed to feeling compelled to charge to make use of their class features? I've always thought Rogues should start getting Specials at 7 instead of 10, anyway...