ethical issue: Retaking Azure City?

[Gandariel]

let's say the story is over (the order won, snarl problem is fixed, Xykon is killed)
the azurites want to recapture Azure city from the hobgoblins (and maybe they enlist the help of the Order)

Now the ethical problem is, we know the Azurites are GOOD and the hobgoblins are EVIL.
If the azurites went to attack Gobbotopia, that wouldn't be a normal battle.

if a kingdom wants to conquer another, only their armies fight, and the victor rules both kindoms.
in This battle, the azurites would kill and vanquish every single hobgoblin in the town.
And now that we've been with redcloak and we've seen him struggle to finally create his Gobbotopia...

i'd personally root for the hobgoblins.


what i'm trying to say is, the azurites have the right to conquer back their city, but we (the readers) don't see anymore the hobgoblins as a random enemy who deserves to be killed, we see them as a population like the humans, with their right to exist;
so if the azurites were to attack Gobbotopia, would that be "good"?
who would you root for?

[Warren Dew]

Speak for yourself please. I still see the hobgoblins as a random enemy that deserves to be killed. Gobbotopia's economy is still based on slavery.

That doesn't mean it will happen - in fact, I suspect most Azurites will be more than happy to settle down where Vaarsuvius put them.

[JonestheSpy]

Couldn't root for anyone. It's be just one of those horrible tragic situations where two sides with understandable, sympathetic points of view are fighting and you just want to make peace somehow.

I'm hoping that the Azureites get all their captives safely out and can make some sort of armistice with Gobbotopia. In fact I rather suspect this might happen within the story, as I'm pretty sure Xykon is going to turn on Redcloak before it's all over.

[Tvtyrant]

Considering the fact this is politics, I would say there is no objective right or wrong to it. Both sides are right from their own perspective, and if you were to have two of them debate it would be the exact same arguments on both sides.

In this case "right" means whoever wins.

[ThePhantasm]

. . . are morality threads allowed?'

As for the topic, I'd definitely root for the Azurites.

[JonestheSpy]

Speak for yourself please. I still see the hobgoblins as a random enemy that deserves to be killed. Gobbotopia's economy is still based on slavery.

I think you're exaggerating a bit there. Team Peregrine freed 112 prisoners - not enough slaves to build an economy on. Yeah, they worked the prisoners. No, it wasn't "good" - but that's only one factor among many in my point of view. Other factors include things like, say, "Azurite military strike forces engaging in ethnic cleansing", and the quite understandable response from those being cleansed.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm personally rooting for neither. I'm thinking the whole Azurites vs goblinoids sub-plot will end with both sides winning and losing. Not a peachy "they all holds hands and dance" ending, but both lose a lot of people, come to some agreement, the goblins release the slaves, Azurites (or at least Hinjo & pals) start to be more open-minded (notice how everyone in Azure City was the same skin colour and War & XPs even said you need to have human blood to be a citizen), etc.

[Bleak Ink]

I could never agree with the people saying it's wrong for goblins to kill humans, but humans can extirpate goblins to their hearts' content. Alignment system ignored, both are sentient, intelligent species; murdering either is deplorable.

Now, personally and unsurprisingly, I'd be rooting for the hobgoblins, too.

[blazingshadow]

i would root for the ones who have the most power backing them. in this case the azurites still have the wizards the nobles didn't want to send to the battle, higher leveled paladins after all those random encounters at sea, elven support and an underground resistance force.

the goblins have an uphill battle if they want to keep their city without the help of xykon or redcloak. they might have the great numbers and zombies on their side but the decisive card is how much effort and resources will the elves invest into retaking the city

[Warren Dew]

No, it wasn't "good" - but that's only one factor among many in my point of view. Other factors include things like, say, "Azurite military strike forces engaging in ethnic cleansing", and the quite understandable response from those being cleansed.

Even if one believes the Azurites deserved to lose the city, that doesn't preclude feeling that the hobgoblins deserve to be wiped out too.

[G-Man Graves]

Even if one believes the Azurites deserved to lose the city, that doesn't preclude feeling that the hobgoblins deserve to be wiped out too.

Now, I don't have the exact quote (if someone could provide it, that would no doubt be helpful), but I'm fairly sure that Rich pointed out that Paladin's fell for

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exterminating Redcloak's home village in SoD.

If paladin's fell for doing that on a relatively small scale, maybe, just maybe, doing the same thing to a city with a population in the thousands isn't the best idea.

[Swordpriest]

Definitely rooting for the Azurites. Heck, even if everything is relative as the relativists say, then the humans are relatively more like I am, since I'm a human, and therefore I'd automatically root for the ones who wouldn't kill me or enslave me out of hand just based on my species.

I actually can't believe that there are more than one or two people rooting for the hobgoblins, but I can't expound on that without venturing into dangerous territory, so ....

[thubby]

who says it would be a slaughter if the good guys win? why cant they just expel/banish/assimilate the non-militant gobos?

[G-Man Graves]

Past events show that the Sapphire guard may not be that forgiving.

[Lord]

I would root for the azurites. The Hobgoblins may have a sympathetic viewpoint, but then again, so did Cornelia in Code geass, that didn't change the fact that she was oppressing hundreds of thousands of innocent people because of their race.
The Hobgoblins are invaders. If they had their way they would just do exactly the same thing the humans were doing, only worse because their fearless leader is enacting a plan that could destroy the universe.
The Paladins killed one village to avert armageddon. It failed and it certainly wasn't a good guy act, but the fact is that that they had a logical reason for doing it. It was evil, but it holds more water than Redcloaks reason.
Redcloak is doing this for two reasons, cosmic blackmail against the gods, and revenge.
Revenge is not a good motive. If someone kills your brother, and you kill them in the middle ages, the only result is that his brother wants you dead. Revenge only leads to blood feuds, which only end when someone refuses to enact revenge.
While it is true that Redcloaks goblins had reason to hate the Azurites. The Hobgoblins have no real beef with the azurites. In fact if you examine this strip...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html

...it becomes clear that the Hobgoblins were thinking more along the lines of "Hey lets burn a city and have some fun." rather than "Come comrades, let us defeat those who have commited genocide against us.
The Hobgoblins followed Redcloak for two reasons.
1. an inexplicable loyalty to a man who forced his way into power, and {at the time} cared nothing for them.
2. Because they hated humans. Not Azurites, Humans.

Gobblitopia would only gain the right to live on that land after a generation or two. Then the Azurites would be attacking people because of something their ancestors did then the positions would be reversed. Until then they are slaving murderers who attacked a city for almost no justified reason other than racial hatred.
That said the Azurites would be crossing the moral event horizon if they genocided the Hobgoblins. There should be some form of understanding reached, with the Azurites getting their city back.
Respectfully, Lord

[Dalek-K]

Both sides view they have a right to the place, and the ones that weren't part of the initial invasion really don't know anywhere else but there to be home... Is it fair to punish those goblins for what their parents did?

The GOOD thing for the Azurites to do right now (as in keep as much bloodshed and violence down with regards to innocents) is to just take the loss and stay where they are at. Yes go back and save the people trapped (or bargain for them) but all and all stay in Elven territory and work out the legal rights to gain custody of the land. Redcloak is willing to negotiate (O-Chul knows this) so really they could negotiate for the greater good.

Really this whole problem is one big circle... Hopefully the elves don't get to mad about them being there haha. Of course them sending the a group in could be for many different reasons ;) lol

[Seraphem]

Now, I don't have the exact quote (if someone could provide it, that would no doubt be helpful), but I'm fairly sure that Rich pointed out that Paladin's fell for

Spoiler

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exterminating Redcloak's home village in SoD.

If paladin's fell for doing that on a relatively small scale, maybe, just maybe, doing the same thing to a city with a population in the thousands isn't the best idea.

Well I don't know it word for word either, he did only say that "some" of them fell, not all, and it was said in regards to the Paladin's killing innocent women and children in their attack. So it wasn't the attacking the village that caused them to fall, it was some of the things they did during the attack.

Keep in mind the whole reason Redcloak is after the gates is to extort the gods into giving goblinoids full standing as a race, since right now they are, per divine decree, nothing but walking XP for random adventures. Gobotopia is just another way of achieving this equality, but by bypassing the gods and just trying to make the other races accept them without the gods officially editing there monster manual entry.

As to which side I'd root for, tough call, I can't deny the Azurites have a valid claim to get there city back, but I also would like see the goblins given the chance they are looking for. And really neither side is completely clean in the history of the fighting between the two. So really I'd just hope that whichever side lost the battle for the city in the end is at least able to rebuild a new city/country somewhere else.

[veti]

I can't believe this. Are we seriously discussing rooting for the side whose job induction program includes the instruction, and I quote:

"If one of the elderly slaves starts to falter or slow down, you have to whip them even harder. [...] Because it's funny."

Even at their worst, the Sapphire Guard never did that.

Sure the Azurites may not be "innocent", but there are degrees of evil, and the hobgoblins are clearly more evil.

[G-Man Graves]

Well I don't know it word for word either, he did only say that "some" of them fell, not all, and it was said in regards to the Paladin's killing innocent women and children in their attack. So it wasn't the attacking the village that caused them to fall, it was some of the things they did during the attack.

Very true. But keep in mind, that those were paladin's attacking. Those were the people (theoretically) held to a certain code of conduct. When the Azurites try to retake Azure City, it's going to be a force of mostly normal soldiers. I would give good odds that they try to kill anything with orange skin and fangs, regardless of gender, age, or ability to fight.

I can't believe this. Are we seriously discussing rooting for the side whose job induction program includes the instruction, and I quote:

"If one of the elderly slaves starts to falter or slow down, you have to whip them even harder. [...] Because it's funny."

Even at their worst, the Sapphire Guard never did that.

Sure the Azurites may not be "innocent", but there are degrees of evil, and the hobgoblins are clearly more evil.

Yes. We are discussing this. We're discussing whether it's better to root for a side who whips slaves, or a side that has no problem with exterminating entire settlements of sentient beings.

[blazingshadow]

i feel that in the end the azurites will get the city back with the exception of having a goblin district or something

[Swordpriest]

who says it would be a slaughter if the good guys win? why cant they just expel/banish/assimilate the non-militant gobos?

Precisely. I can't see why the Azurites can't rescue the prisoners and expel the hobgoblins without wiping out every one of them. Of course, if every hobgoblin fights to the death, then that's a different case.

I don't really see how the goblins have a "right" to the city, unless we're talking right of conquest. In that case, if the Azurites take it back, they'll have the same right, so we're back at the same point. At most, it's an ethical tossup.

[MoonCat]

I think the civilians might want to stay there. It still gives them a place to trade with the elves, water protection, and plenty of room. Then the paladins would start invading, but they'd do that anyway. But for a place to rebuild, I think it would be pretty silly to relocate an entire nation after they've probably just settled down.

Note: In the back of War and XPs the Azure City guidebook says you need to have at least half human blood to live there.

[veti]

Yes. We are discussing this. We're discussing whether it's better to root for a side who whips slaves, or a side that has no problem with exterminating entire settlements of sentient beings.

Setting aside for a moment the whole "Sapphire Guard" != "Azure City" thing... the SG did wrong because they believed it was necessary. The hobgoblins do it when (they acknowledge) it has zero or even negative utility because, in their own words, "it's fun".

It's like comparing someone who, say, shoots a cat that stares up a tree where a rare bird is nesting, with someone who grabs the same cat and, for no reason at all, sets fire to it. One is Wrong, the other is Evil.

Of course you're entitled to your own value system. But that's how I see it.

[slayerx]

Yes. We are discussing this. We're discussing whether it's better to root for a side who whips slaves, or a side that has had small faction of its population that a few generations ago had no problem with exterminating entire settlements of sentient beings.

There fixed that for you...
Sapphire guard =/= Azure city
In no way should a group that does not even officially exist as far as the population knows, should speak for the greater population. The greater population had no say in anything they did. Furtharmore, this was something that happened 30 or so years ago; the only ones actually involved in the slaughter are likely old or dead; putting aside nut cases like miko there's no telling what changes have occured. Fact is, redcloak took his revenge out on people who never even had a clue what happened to his village.

I think you're exaggerating a bit there. Team Peregrine freed 112 prisoners - not enough slaves to build an economy on.

Nothing says that the 112 prisoners they released were the entire population of slaves... given the situation thousands of Azurites likely got left behind. So if there was only 112 slaves than that means the goblins did a lot of their own ethnic cleansing.

[Swordpriest]

Very true. But keep in mind, that those were paladin's attacking. Those were the people (theoretically) held to a certain code of conduct. When the Azurites try to retake Azure City, it's going to be a force of mostly normal soldiers. I would give good odds that they try to kill anything with orange skin and fangs, regardless of gender, age, or ability to fight.

Ah, I see. So we are also judging every Azurite on the basis of what some of them might do at some point in the future, now? Guilty until proven innocent is the order of the day?

The Azurites don't "deserve" the city because they might handle the creatures that invaded their city a bit roughly at some undefined point in the future?

Yes. We are discussing this. We're discussing whether it's better to root for a side who whips slaves, or a side that has no problem with exterminating entire settlements of sentient beings.

Ah, okay. So if some people from a secret organization from my country went into another country a generation ago and killed a couple of dozen people, that gives the army of that other country the moral right to come into my hometown and kill or enslave everyone who is living there, who had no idea that any of this stuff happened and had nothing to do with it?

I think we're moving into the domain of reverse racism here, where the hobgoblins have the moral right to do anything to the Azurites they want because they are hobgoblins.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm rooting for the Hobgoblins because I think the trade agreement with Cliffport would be enough to get them to change their ways and become less evil if still militant. Plus Jirix seems to be pretty cool and reasonable. Yes they are evil but if they can keep control of Goblintopia they might be redeemed through exposure to other cultures that aren't trying to kill them.


On the other hand the Azurites are the underdogs which must always be rooted for and have sweet characters and leaders such as O-chul, Hinjo, Niu, and Thanh, plus Lein. However while they are working with the Elves they won't show any mercy to any of the hobgoblins. Also one of the reasons they lost the city was due to nobles infighting so its their own fault.

Overall I'm not going to say this is an ethical thing or not. They are both intreasting and have their own valid reasons, to themselves at least, for wanting that land. Its going to be a bloody fight unless the Azurites back down and find another solution or unless the hobgoblins all leave for back home.

[Dr.Epic]

what i'm trying to say is, the azurites have the right to conquer back their city, but we (the readers) don't see anymore the hobgoblins as a random enemy who deserves to be killed, we see them as a population like the humans, with their right to exist;
so if the azurites were to attack Gobbotopia, would that be "good"?
who would you root for?

I don't see them as that and not every reader does. If the hobgoblins are evil then I don't see the ethical problem. Besides, an empire can be evil. And this is just payback for what the hobgoblins did to the Azurites.

[factotum]

Why are you assuming that the Azurites will just slaughter all the hobgoblins in the city when they retake it? Quite apart from the logistical difficulties of killing them all (there are twenty thousand or more of them) and then cleaning up the mess, the Azurites are still led by Paladins who would Fall for killing every man, woman and child in the place, regardless of their race or alignment.

[Juggling Goth]

Redcloak is willing to negotiate (O-Chul knows this) so really they could negotiate for the greater good.

I don't think that's the impression O-Chul got of Redcloak, somehow.

Plus, we readers know Redcloak was never going to negotiate, and it was all in the interests of keeping hobgoblin control of Azure City. Redcloak has many qualities that make him an interesting and sympathetic villain, but an ability to listen to reason and back down is not one of them.

I mean, I would love for Redcloak and O-Chul to face each other again, but I think the result is gonna be less "oh yes, he was reasonable and open to negotiation" and more "SMITE EVIL!"

[Forum Explorer]

Why are you assuming that the Azurites will just slaughter all the hobgoblins in the city when they retake it? Quite apart from the logistical difficulties of killing them all (there are twenty thousand or more of them) and then cleaning up the mess, the Azurites are still led by Paladins who would Fall for killing every man, woman and child in the place, regardless of their race or alignment.

Because of the elves attitude of "the only good goblin is a dead goblin". YMMV of course. Also there are only four paladins alive that I know of and Hinjo for one won't risk losing his elven allies.