[3.5] Erinyes Monster Progression (PEACH)

[Lord_Gareth]

As for that whole discussion that criticized the ranger archetype and by extension the purported niche of the Erinyes, well, I’m not sure how to respond to that. I’m talking about balance, not effectiveness. At high levels, swordsage and warblade can nearly keep up with Tier 1’s. But you guys are addressing this on such a different level than the one I’m operating on here. I’m trying to keep things more or less core. Because, quite frankly, once you expand past core, there are an infinite number of “what if’s”. No class will ever be as good as [X] class is. I can definitely see what the two of you are driving at, and why you're saying it, but I don't want to discuss the fabric of game design.

Well, then, at least let me say this: your Eryines has monk syndrome, in that none of her abilities really synergize and none of them really follow a theme. Yeah, it's truer to the original monster, but nothing this girl gets is remotely close to a legit class feature, and that lack of iterative attacks really kicks her where she's down, stat boosts or no stat boosts.

[Zaydos]

Looking over dragonkin I'd put my money on a dragonkin fighter or werebear barbarian over an erinyes monster class. Charm Monster and True Seeing are the only big advantages over dragonkin and they aren't worth 5 LA. I'd reduce the LA by 2 or 3.

Wait do you actually have copies of their character sheets?
If you do the easy method is to acid-test the LA. Stat out an erinyes and compare it to the party members. If it's critically weaker knock off an LA or two, if it's far stronger add one or two, if it's neither you've got it.

[Ursus the Grim]

Well, then, at least let me say this: your Eryines has monk syndrome, in that none of her abilities really synergize and none of them really follow a theme. Yeah, it's truer to the original monster, but nothing this girl gets is remotely close to a legit class feature, and that lack of iterative attacks really kicks her where she's down, stat boosts or no stat boosts.

I completely understand what you're saying here.

The Erinyes in the monster manual is, as you put it, "a weapon and a gimmick." I mistook the gimmicks for being essentially equivalent to a class feature. Lack of iterative attacks didn't seem as much of an issue, because I expected her to pretty much move every turn anyway. The general theme is annoyance, or 'scout'. Moderately high mobility with weak attacks. But that's nowhere near enough.

[Lord_Gareth]

I completely understand what you're saying here.

The Erinyes in the monster manual is, as you put it, "a weapon and a gimmick." I mistook the gimmicks for being essentially equivalent to a class feature. Lack of iterative attacks didn't seem as much of an issue, because I expected her to pretty much move every turn anyway. The general theme is annoyance, or 'scout'. Moderately high mobility with weak attacks. But that's nowhere near enough.

Hey man, we were all new 'brewers once, ya learn and grow ^_^. Try choosing a theme and running with it.

[Bloody Initiate]

Imo she really is ECL 8. The True Seeing is sweet, for sure, but not broken at that level (I've had it as low as level 2, and it's awesome for sure, but it's self-only, which means you are useful for your perception ability but still only have as many actions as everyone else). The teleporting isn't even that broken, because once again it's self-only. Since no one else in the party can keep up with it, it just becomes a really cool toy that doesn't matter that much. You end up feeling awesome and having some unique utility, but you want to stay with the party as much as possible. Drop everyone in a bag of holding if you've got it and you save on travel costs/time, but still have to dump everyone out at the destination, making it less practical for ambushes than what the casters can do later.

The ability boosts seem crazy, but they're pretty fair for a warrior-type. Isn't one of the reason casters so completely outclass fighter-types that they can turn into something much bigger and stronger? It seems fitting therefore that the fighter-type should get bigger and stronger without the casters.

Charm monster is cool, but it's 4th level, which means giving it at level 7 or 8 is just fine. Give it 3/day at 7 or 8, gain more uses with more HD and then make it at-will later.

[Ursus the Grim]

Looking over dragonkin I'd put my money on a dragonkin fighter or werebear barbarian over an erinyes monster class. Charm Monster and True Seeing are the only big advantages over dragonkin and they aren't worth 5 LA. I'd reduce the LA by 2 or 3.

Wait do you actually have copies of their character sheets?
If you do the easy method is to acid-test the LA. Stat out an erinyes and compare it to the party members. If it's critically weaker knock off an LA or two, if it's far stronger add one or two, if it's neither you've got it.

Sorry, Zaydos. You posted as I was responding to someone else, so I didn't get to see it.

I don't have copies of their sheets, but I could probably replicate them pretty well, knowing their rough armor classes and gear choices, as well as how I had them roll scores. I wouldn't just pit them one against each other in any sort, because a character isn't just combat, but I could see how much the Erinyes lags behind.

Lord_Gareth: Though I'm opposed to trimming the fat on this one, what if I just added some muscle. Instead of making the Erinyes playable at level 8, why not make it playable at 16 by adding abilities? Specifically, I'm thinking of throwing in some version of the skirmish ability. This would supplement the damage, emphasize maneuverability, and make it hurt a little less to miss those extra attacks?

I was also considering a way to combine skirmish ability with a usage of Greater Teleport. As a full round, pop from one place, make a skirmish attack, and pop back to your original location? This sounds like the beginnings of proper class features that fits the flavor, but I don't know if it works.

P.S. Thanks for the encouragement, and I've seen the Harrowed and Color Wheel posts. I believe you know what you're talking about, but I reserve the right to disagree sometimes anyway.

[Ursus the Grim]

Okay, original post has been updated with some changes. Consider everything up until this point, erm, considered and judged by my standards. Which are kind of inconsistent, but if I'm happy, I'm happy. Try to convince me I'm not if you don't like what I did, it's possible.

Anyway, now I notice an ugly gap at level 15. Oh noes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Skirmish isn't a bad idea, but 4d6 points of damage isn't worth the investment. At all. There's a reason Scout is considered sub-par.

[Ursus the Grim]

You think a spike to the damage? The Erinyes has a lot of stuff the scout doesn't have, and as it is it is only one level behind the Scout in terms of skirmish damage.

I really don't know how much it should deal in order to be competitive at Tier 3 or 2.

[Lord_Gareth]

Scouts are generally considered t5. Unless you're ubercharging, melee either needs to stack dice (a la Sneak Attack) or throw down as many attacks as humanly possible.

[Ursus the Grim]

Okay, I beefed up Skirmish a bit, but I think I'm currently happy with it again. Thanks for the feedback.

[Delegreg]

I think you got a typo on the Lvl16 Skirmish, it is the same as Lvl14 (+5d6, +5 AC). Otherwise great job.

[Ursus the Grim]

Utilizing the Homebrew clause in the thread necromancy loophole, I'd figure I'd mention results.

Eventually, the class was presented as its seen here. We've had two sessions of playtesting with it.

In session one, the party was trapped in a sand storm as a purple worm attacked and swallowed the half-dragon sorceress on round two. The party suffered no navigation penalties because they followed the true-seeing Erinyes. No one but the sorceress was in any danger, and they took it down in turn three, after one round of stomach damage. The Erinyes, using skirmish, dealt about as much damage as the werebear. Though it occured to me that the dragonkin would have had an easier time flying in the sandstorm due to size, this never came up. Dragonkin didn't deal that much damage, unfortunately.

In Session two (the sorceress was absent), they came up against an advanced gynosphinx and a guardian naga. The werebear went toe-to-toe against the gynosphinx and won (mostly due to DR). The Dragonkin ended up trying to pinpoint the guardian naga, who was hiding with greater invisibility while hurling spells. The Erinyes would have been a great help to him, but she touched what I have loving dubbed the infamous "Insanity Hatch" a door to a ladder leading downwards. . . that happened to be protected by the gynosphinx's Symbol of Insanity. After gibbering maniacally for most of four rounds, I had to houserule that the Erinyes would not necessarily flee via teleportation, lest we lose the players NEW character after two sessions. After the werebear aided the weakened dragonkin against the naga, they forced the naga to reverse the Erinyes' state. At this point, the Dragonkin foolishly demanded a duel to regain his honor. After going invisible, curing itself, and then volleying more nukes, the Dragonkin went to negatives and the naga escaped.

I think the Erinyes is on par with the werebear in terms of damage, especially being able to move and deal that many dice. I fear the Dragonkin is falling behind due to lack of Damage Reduction. Overall, I am satisfied as the monster class is now, but I will still accept any feedback or suggestions.

[NineThePuma]

Hit the Dragonkin over the head with a book and tell him to stop being dumb?

Just kidding.

I don't have the time to read the class in depth, but I will say that I like it based on my skimming. =3

[Ursus the Grim]

Hit the Dragonkin over the head with a book and tell him to stop being dumb?

Just kidding.

I don't have the time to read the class in depth, but I will say that I like it based on my skimming. =3

Actually, the other players kinda teased him enough about it and now we've got a recurring NPC. It really wasn't that tragic. The next session may take place next Friday, and it will take place in closer quarters. It will be interesting to see how she stacks up when she doesn't have the room to fly and pick her targets apart.