Rich's Champion class

[Prime32]

I'm going to lock this thread, but you have permission to begin a new message board thread here in Homebrew to discuss if anyone wants.

Will do.

I always thought the Champion was a cool concept but hard to actually use, so I was happy to see the additions.


If Rich is reading this, I'd like to ask something about Avatar Weapon.

Avatar Weapon (Su): Starting at 8th level, the champion can cause one of his magical weapons to change shape along with him when he takes his avatar form. The weapon changes to any one other simple or martial weapon, but keeps all enchantments and is crafted from the same special materials (if possible). The champion chooses a weapon to be his avatar weapon by meditating on it for 8 hours and deciding what its alternate form will be; once chosen, the weapon can only transform to that single shape. The champion can meditate again to switch the ability to a different weapon or to change the alternate form to that of a different weapon.

How does this work with double weapons? Let's say I have a +1 flaming burst/+2 shocking quarterstaff which I want to turn into a longsword. Would I choose one end to turn into a longsword, with the other vanishing? Or would I get a +2 flaming burst shocking longsword?

Second, while the multiclassing feats are cool they leave you with little reason to take more than 1 champion level. The existing multiclassing feats grant bonuses in both directions. If, say, Avatar Knight let your champion levels advance Smite Evil it would make things more interesting.


Otherwise, anyone used this class in a game?

[Loki_42]

If it didn't require good, I thought that switching around some abilities would make a pretty cool Yugi/Yami build. Never tried it though.

[The Glyphstone]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Children's Card Game)?

[Istari]

If it didn't require good, I thought that switching around some abilities would make a pretty cool Yugi/Yami build. Never tried it though.

I'm pretty sure it mentions you can swap everything alignment related in there to make an evil champion

Replace all instances of good with evil and evil with good.

[Elfstone]

Im so happy it got a revamp. This makes my day. I did use the class but not the new version. It worked well.

[Tanuki Tales]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Children's Card Game)?

No sir, it would be max ranks in Perform (Epic Mind Rape).

[The Giant]

If Rich is reading this, I'd like to ask something about Avatar Weapon.

How does this work with double weapons? Let's say I have a +1 flaming burst/+2 shocking quarterstaff which I want to turn into a longsword. Would I choose one end to turn into a longsword, with the other vanishing? Or would I get a +2 flaming burst shocking longsword?

I'd say the second. You paid for those weapon enchantments, there's no reason you shouldn't get to use them. Just take the higher of the two enhancement bonuses and apply all non-redundant abilities (that is, if both ends are flaming, you don't get flaming x2).

Likewise, if your regular weapon is a +4 flaming longsword, and you want to turn it into an orcish double axe, both ends will end up one enhancement bonus less, and then divvy up the special abilities between the ends. So you would get one end as +3 and the other as +3 flaming. That's actually a slight bump in overall power, but so what? It's a class ability, it's supposed to make him more powerful.

Also, your abilities gained from Greater Avatar Weapon should be split up (or not) as desired to the two ends of your weapon, if your weapon is turning into a double weapon in avatar form.

Second, while the multiclassing feats are cool they leave you with little reason to take more than 1 champion level.

The feats I wrote do not advance the number of times per day you can take avatar form, nor do they increase its energy resistance, damage reduction, or flight capabilities, nor does it give you a +1 ability scores increase for the avatar every level. If you want to take one level of champion so you can turn into a slightly-different version of yourself once a day, go to town. Without the extras that the champion class gives you, your avatar will just be a reshuffled version of yourself without any of the class features that the multiclass feats don't specifically allow.

The existing multiclassing feats grant bonuses in both directions. If, say, Avatar Knight let your champion levels advance Smite Evil it would make things more interesting.

And what reason would one have to take more than one level of paladin, then? The feats are intended to help the player who wants to play a champion with the added flavor from another class, not a player who wants to dip, in either direction.

The existing multiclass feats are a different kettle of fish because none of those classes puts you in a different body with different ability scores X times per day. Well, druid does, but that's why druid + Natural Spell is so powerful. Imagine a single feat that let you cast all of your arcane spells in wild shape form AND allowed your druid levels to count as wizard levels for purposes of spells known. It would be called the most broken thing ever, and rightly so.

[Prime32]

Thanks for the weapon clarification.

The feats I wrote do not advance the number of times per day you can take avatar form, nor do they increase its energy resistance, damage reduction, or flight capabilities, nor does it give you a +1 ability scores increase for the avatar every level. If you want to take one level of champion so you can turn into a slightly-different version of yourself once a day, go to town. Without the extras that the champion class gives you, your avatar will just be a reshuffled version of yourself without any of the class features that the multiclass feats don't specifically allow.

My main worry is an arcane spellcaster with Dragonblooded Avatar. Apart from the reshuffling there's still those 4 ability improvements at first level, which could be put into their spellcasting score. And the avatar's d12/full BAB chassis is more of a boost to a wizard or sorcerer than any other class. Then there's the matter that while the other feats give the avatar access to some of your other class features, Dragonblooded Avatar gives a sorcerer/champion all of them.

With Extra Hero Form the end result is basically a wizard who can grant himself full BAB, save bonuses, +4 Int and +4hp/level every encounter. Apart from making it harder for enemies to resist his spells, a polymorphed avatar-wizard would be terrifying, adding the strength of a dragon (for instance) to his enhanced combat abilities.

Best solution I can think of is to make the HD advancement connected to the class that grants it, so that avatar HD you gain from wizard levels would be d4/poor BAB/good Will (the champion class being the only one that grants HD better than its own).

Second, while the multiclassing feats are cool they leave you with little reason to take more than 1 champion level. The existing multiclassing feats grant bonuses in both directions. If, say, Avatar Knight let your champion levels advance Smite Evil it would make things more interesting.

And what reason would one have to take more than one level of paladin, then?

That would be someone who wanted to be a paladin with champion abilities, rather than a champion with paladin abilities. It gives a choice between, say, letting your avatar fly or getting a faster mount, opening up more character concepts.

[The Giant]

Thanks for the weapon clarification.
My main worry is an arcane spellcaster with Dragonblooded Avatar. Apart from the reshuffling there's still those 4 ability improvements at first level, which could be put into their spellcasting score.

Well, I'll be honest that this never occurred to me, mostly because it would be violating the spirit of the class horribly, which is that the champion is the smart one and the avatar is a big dumb brute.

And the avatar's d12/full BAB chassis is more of a boost to a wizard or sorcerer than any other class. Then there's the matter that while the other feats give the avatar access to some of your other class features, Dragonblooded Avatar gives a sorcerer/champion all of them.

That's last part is more of a problem with the sorcerer, though. We all acknowledge that it's terrible that giving a sorcerer a prestige class with full caster progression and any other abilities is always going to be better than a single-classed caster, right? Same idea.

With Extra Hero Form the end result is basically a wizard who can grant himself full BAB, save bonuses, +4 Int and +4hp/level every encounter. Apart from making it harder for enemies to resist his spells, a polymorphed avatar-wizard would be terrifying, adding the strength of a dragon (for instance) to his enhanced combat abilities.

First, avatars are immune to being polymorphed. That includes by their own spells.

Second, it wouldn't grant him much in the way of save bonuses because he would lose his wizard's good Will save while in avatar form. I guess if a wizard wants to trade his one good save for two other good saves, he can. Doesn't really strike me as that much of a problem.

However, I see what you're getting at.

Best solution I can think of is to make the HD advancement connected to the class that grants it, so that avatar HD you gain from wizard levels would be d4/poor BAB/good Will (the champion class being the only one that grants HD better than its own).

A much easier solution would be to increase the prerequisites of the Extra Hero Form feat to "Hero Form 2/day". If a wizard wants to give up five caster levels and some feats to pull that trick off more than once a day, I say we let him.

That would be someone who wanted to be a paladin with champion abilities, rather than a champion with paladin abilities. It gives a choice between, say, letting your avatar fly or getting a faster mount, opening up more character concepts.

What's stopping them from doing that now? So they have to make the choice whether they get one or the other to be more powerful, what's bad about that? If they want to fly, they take more champion levels at the price of having a weaker mount (which they won't need because they can FLY) and lower Smite Evil. If they want a stronger mount, they take more paladin levels at the price of not flying (which is fine, because they're riding a horse) and lower avatar stats. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And let's be honest: No one takes levels of paladin just because they want to increase their mount's power. Or cast low-level divine spells. That's like saying that some people might not want to prestige class out of sorcerer because their familiar won't be as strong. True in theory, not in practice. If someone wants their mount to be strong, they take Leadership and get a kickass silver dragon as a cohort, they don't blow paladin levels on it.

Choices create character concepts. Getting the best of both worlds creates a bunch of characters who all have it all. If you can take one feat and get the best of everything both classes have to offer, then that's what everyone will do.

[Axinian]

Having played with the class, I must say I really like it, but there was one thing that was constantly getting in the way: limiting the Avatar form by uses per day rather than minutes per day. Especially at low levels, it never really felt like I was able to shine (pun sort of intended), because I would only be able to make use of the class's main ability for a brief amount of time. At higher levels this is obviously less of a problem, but at low levels I just felt like a barbarian with a rage variant, and the prerequisite on Extra Transformation prevents it from fixing this.

This is just me, but I would find the class a lot more fun if you could switch in and out of hero form as long as you have minutes of it left, rather than using it all up the first time you do it, with each use counting as a minute at minimum.

Maybe I'm just too used to how Pathfinder does things, but this really was the only thing hindering the fun of the class (it was still fun, but less so than it could be at low levels.)

[The Glyphstone]

Well, I'll be honest that this never occurred to me, mostly because it would be violating the spirit of the class horribly, which is that the champion is the smart one and the avatar is a big dumb brute.

Is that necessarily how it has to be, though? Off the top of my head, I can only thing of classic characters that really exemplify the Champion:
Prince Adam/He-Man, and ???/Captain Marvel - both of them are a split between weak, unassuming 'normal' and 'mighty hero', but I don't remember either He-Man or Captain Marvel being particularly stupid. Admittedly, the class features strongly support making the avatar a bruiser, and the minimaxing nature of players would encourage using the avatar's useless mental stats for dump stats; but even in your sample champions, Sindee The Black actually gets smarter when she transforms into the Forest Guardian. I could easily see a cheerful, good-natured but rather dim person - the classical 'farmboy' persona - whose Avatar is much smarter than he is, but less friendly.

[The Giant]

Having played with the class, I must say I really like it, but there was one thing that was constantly getting in the way: limiting the Avatar form by uses per day rather than minutes per day. Especially at low levels, it never really felt like I was able to shine (pun sort of intended), because I would only be able to make use of the class's main ability for a brief amount of time. At higher levels this is obviously less of a problem, but at low levels I just felt like a barbarian with a rage variant, and the prerequisite on Extra Transformation prevents it from fixing this.

This is just me, but I would find the class a lot more fun if you could switch in and out of hero form as long as you have minutes of it left, rather than using it all up the first time you do it, with each use counting as a minute at minimum.

Maybe I'm just too used to how Pathfinder does things, but this really was the only thing hindering the fun of the class (it was still fun, but less so than it could be at low levels.)

That's a good point, but there's a danger there, too. Specifically, that few encounters last more than a minute or two, when all is said and done. At 1st level, that could result in the champion being able to assume avatar form for as many as 8 encounters a day, far more utility than the 1st level barbarian gets with his rage or the 1st level caster gets with his two spells per day. As it stands, in a dungeon situation a champion can already keep pushing through 2 or 3 nearby encounters in the 8 minutes that an 18 Cha champion can stay in avatar form.

I mean, if it plays like a barbarian at low levels, well, that was the intent. It IS like the barbarian. And it shouldn't be changed because Pathfinder changed the way their barbarians work, because not everyone plays Pathfinder. If you want to use the champion in Pathfinder and split its avatar time up like that, you can do so, but I recommend that you change the total minutes per day to class level + Charisma modifier. Also, you probably can't allow feats like Explosive Transformation because you'll have your champion SHAZAMing people every few rounds.

[Temassasin]

i was thinking maybe a blackguard version of the class though you could just switch good with evil (as it says) and re flavor it.

[The Giant]

Is that necessarily how it has to be, though? Off the top of my head, I can only thing of classic characters that really exemplify the Champion:
Prince Adam/He-Man, and ???/Captain Marvel - both of them are a split between weak, unassuming 'normal' and 'mighty hero', but I don't remember either He-Man or Captain Marvel being particularly stupid. Admittedly, the class features strongly support making the avatar a bruiser, and the minimaxing nature of players would encourage using the avatar's useless mental stats for dump stats; but even in your sample champions, Sindee The Black actually gets smarter when she transforms into the Forest Guardian. I could easily see a cheerful, good-natured but rather dim person - the classical 'farmboy' persona - whose Avatar is much smarter than he is, but less friendly.

You're absolutely right, I should have stricken the word "dumb" from my sentence. However, the point stands that I didn't envision the avatar as anything but a combat character because until yesterday, it was impossible for him to cast spells in avatar form.

Also, Captain Marvel's civilian identity is Billy Batson. I will now have to take your moderating badge away.

[The Glyphstone]

You're absolutely right, I should have stricken the word "dumb" from my sentence. However, the point stands that I didn't envision the avatar as anything but a combat character because until yesterday, it was impossible for him to cast spells in avatar form.

Also, Captain Marvel's civilian identity is Billy Batson. I will now have to take your moderating badge away.

I saw Billy Batson on his wiki (I checked) - but it's a comic book character, they change identities like hats...how many Green Lanterns have there been by this point?

Though since we're discussing superheroes, how would you as the creator feel about a variant Champion of sorts where the Avatar was the spellcasting half? It'd take a lot of work to be playable, but it seems a logical extension of the flavor.

[alchemyprime]

I saw Billy Batson on his wiki (I checked) - but it's a comic book character, they change identities like hats...how many Green Lanterns have there been by this point?

Though since we're discussing superheroes, how would you as the creator feel about a variant Champion of sorts where the Avatar was the spellcasting half? It'd take a lot of work to be playable, but it seems a logical extension of the flavor.

On Earth? Not counting possible futures or alternate timelines, 6 (Jade was a Green Lantern for a while) and almost 7 (Terry Berg was supposed to take over for Kyle when he became Ion, but the editors trashed that). That is with counting Alan Scott, but they have said though his ring is just a magical recreation, he has honorary Green Lantern Corps status.

Also, I believe Billy Batson has been the only Captain Marvel on the Fawcett/DC side (though Freddie Freeman goes by Captain Marvel Jr., and Mary marvel was called Captain Marvel for a while). Though at Marvel comics, Rick Jones was able to swap out with their Kree Captain Mahr-Vehl for a while by banging the Negabands together.

The more you know.

Also, I have to say: Always have loved the champion, even if I've never gotten a chance to play one.

[Prime32]

A much easier solution would be to increase the prerequisites of the Extra Hero Form feat to "Hero Form 2/day". If a wizard wants to give up five caster levels and some feats to pull that trick off more than once a day, I say we let him.

That does sound better. Though I'd make that a prereq of the multiclassing feat in case he gains extra uses through some other means. (action points?)

Also, you probably can't allow feats like Explosive Transformation because you'll have your champion SHAZAMing people every few rounds.

Not a fan of the Diniverse?

[The Giant]

I saw Billy Batson on his wiki (I checked) - but it's a comic book character, they change identities like hats...how many Green Lanterns have there been by this point?

Totally different scenario; the very premise of the Green Lantern calls for it to be easily passed from one person to the next (or else Hal would never have gotten it in the first place) and for there to be 3600 of them at the same time.

Captain Marvel was chosen by a wizard. A wizard.

Though since we're discussing superheroes, how would you as the creator feel about a variant Champion of sorts where the Avatar was the spellcasting half? It'd take a lot of work to be playable, but it seems a logical extension of the flavor.

In order for the concept of the champion to work, the avatar has to be more powerful than not only the champion, but more powerful than an average warrior-type of the same level. That's what justifies him gaining his power in such small chunks.

For a spellcaster, there's little that I can think to do to make a spellcaster MORE powerful than a standard spellcaster that wouldn't further break them. If you kept the spellcasting half at the same power level as, say, a sorcerer, then there's little reason the player wouldn't just play a regular sorcerer all of the time. If you increased it to the power of a wizard, well, they'd play a wizard instead. And if you increased it beyond the power of a wizard, then you've sailed off into Crazyland.

So, while I could see some sort of more magical variant, I don't think true spellcasting would work. The champion is only balanced precisely because other existing warrior classes are not at the top of the power curve. At best, I think you would have to go with something more reminiscent of the warlock in avatar form (but better) rather than spells.

EDITED to add: Unless you were also nerfing the power of spellcasters in general in your campaign so that they weren't casting greater "I win" spells every day at high levels. Then, a spellcasting version of the champion could work quite well

[The Giant]

That does sound better. Though I'd make that a prereq of the multiclassing feat in case he gains extra uses through some other means. (action points?)

Well, action points aren't standard, so I'm not going to worry about them. That's on the DM if he chooses to allow them.

But remember that you can't JUST make it a prereq of the multiclassing feat, or your theoretical abuser will just use Extra Hero Form to qualify for the multiclass feat in the first place, and it defeats the entire point.

Not a fan of the Diniverse?

Huge fan, just there's a difference between doing that over and over because you're just that powerful, and doing it over and over because the DM made a houserule that they didn't think through.

[Prime32]

Captain Marvel was chosen by a wizard. A wizard.

Pfft. The Guardians are space wizards. In space. And the original Green Lantern was magic.

[The Glyphstone]

Totally different scenario; the very premise of the Green Lantern calls for it to be easily passed from one person to the next (or else Hal would never have gotten it in the first place) and for there to be 3600 of them at the same time.

Captain Marvel was chosen by a wizard. A wizard.

Green Lantern may have been a bad example then, but I still think my hesitation is justified. Green Lantern, Robin, The Flash, Captain America (technically), The Question, Batgirl - there's a decent number of costumed heroes who've passed their mantle on to another name more than once.

In order for the concept of the champion to work, the avatar has to be more powerful than not only the champion, but more powerful than an average warrior-type of the same level. That's what justifies him gaining his power in such small chunks.

For a spellcaster, there's little that I can think to do to make a spellcaster MORE powerful than a standard spellcaster that wouldn't further break them. If you kept the spellcasting half at the same power level as, say, a sorcerer, then there's little reason the player wouldn't just play a regular sorcerer all of the time. If you increased it to the power of a wizard, well, they'd play a wizard instead. And if you increased it beyond the power of a wizard, then you've sailed off into Crazyland.

So, while I could see some sort of more magical variant, I don't think true spellcasting would work. The champion is only balanced precisely because other existing warrior classes are not at the top of the power curve. At best, I think you would have to go with something more reminiscent of the warlock in avatar form (but better) rather than spells.

A warlock-analogue would probably be how it came out, anyways. Anything resembling a traditional Vancian caster wouldn't really work, because the uses/day conflicts would encourage heavy nova-ing to avoid getting unused spells locked away in the untouchable Avatar form.

[Lord_Gareth]

So, while I could see some sort of more magical variant, I don't think true spellcasting would work. The champion is only balanced precisely because other existing warrior classes are not at the top of the power curve. At best, I think you would have to go with something more reminiscent of the warlock in avatar form (but better) rather than spells.

In all fairness, Mr. Burlew, the warlock is in desperate need of improvement, so this may be an incredible idea to pursue.

[Prime32]

Just be sure to combine it with the ability to charge your blasts up for more damage by shouting the names of Hawaiian kings.

[The Glyphstone]

Just be sure to combine it with the ability to charge your blasts up for more damage by shouting the names of Hawaiian kings.

Or by grunting and clenching your fists for five episodes?

[The Giant]

In all fairness, Mr. Burlew, the warlock is in desperate need of improvement, so this may be an incredible idea to pursue.

The warlock is also in desperate need of being Open Game Content before I could do any such thing, which it is not.

That's why there's not, just by way of example, a feat that allowed the champion and warlock levels to stack for purposes of the avatar's Hit Dice, attack bonus, save bonuses, and skill points and allowed the avatar to use eldritch blast and invocations while in avatar form. Because me, a professional designer, designing such a feat and publishing it on this website would be wrong.

Also, I personally like the warlock more or less the way it is*, and would rather see all other spellcasters brought down to a similar level. But that's just me and I realize it does not represent everyone else's views.

* I would make fiendish resilience constant fast healing, and have one invocation gained every level, if anyone were asking me.

[Lord_Gareth]

Your point is well made, Mr. Burlew, though I do believe that there's some manner of vagaries in the OGL laws that state that you can design something similar to, say, Invocations or Maneuvers, but I may be (and probably am) wrong. Would you be terribly offended if one or more of us took the concept and sprinted with it?

[arguskos]

If I might, I have a non-Champion question, but since you're here reading this thread, I figured I was safe to ask it here.

Will you be saving the other gaming articles, such as the Play Theory articles, the villains, and the works not by yourself, in the same manner as the work in the sticky above? If not, may I inquire as to why? It's all quite fine work, worthy of remembrance, and I'd hate for it to be removed, since we'd lose good stuff for future posters.

[The Giant]

Your point is well made, Mr. Burlew, though I do believe that there's some manner of vagaries in the OGL laws that state that you can design something similar to, say, Invocations or Maneuvers, but I may be (and probably am) wrong.

That is one legal interpretation I have heard. To my knowledge, it has not yet been challenged in a court of law. I don't really intend to be the one to do so.

Would you be terribly offended if one or more of us took the concept and sprinted with it?

I have no input on what you may or may not choose to post in this forum, as long as you respect the rules of posting, particularly with regard to copyright laws.

[The Giant]

If I might, I have a non-Champion question, but since you're here reading this thread, I figured I was safe to ask it here.

Will you be saving the other gaming articles, such as the Play Theory articles, the villains, and the works not by yourself, in the same manner as the work in the sticky above? If not, may I inquire as to why? It's all quite fine work, worthy of remembrance, and I'd hate for it to be removed, since we'd lose good stuff for future posters.

The Play Theory and New World articles will remain exactly where they are.

The NPC villains will be going away. While I'm glad that you appreciate them, in some cases they represent ideas that I may want to utilize someday in a work of fiction. You may notice some thematic similarities between the black dragon assassin and a certain black dragon mother who came after Vaarsuvius, for example. As a result, it is in my best long-term interest to take them down now, long before I may want to use them. Yes, they've been up for years, but you'd be surprised how few people have ever read them.

For the work from other authors, the answer is simply that I do not have permission to re-post their work in the forum. But more than that, I'm trying to refocus the site on my own work. Right now, my name appears less than anyone else's on the side bar, but I'm the one who is relying on this site for my income.

And that's part of the reason for the switch to begin with. While I am still interested in gaming as a hobby, the fact is that professionally, I have moved past it into writing in general. I'm not going to be writing rulebooks or gaming articles in the future, I'm going to be writing comic books or novels. Therefore, I want the forward face of the website to more accurately represent what I do NOW, rather than what I did in 2006. The Play Theory and New World articles get to stay because they are as much about writing as they are about gaming, but everything else is getting shunted here.

In a weird way, though, this may actually encourage me to write more gaming stuff. If I know that something I thought up in my spare time is not going to get the scrutiny of being the First New Gaming Article On the Site in Five Years, I may not be as worried about it.

[Elfstone]

Yes, they've been up for years, but you'd be surprised how few people have ever read them.

And that's part of the reason for the switch to begin with. While I am still interested in gaming as a hobby, the fact is that professionally, I have moved past it into writing in general. I'm not going to be writing rulebooks or gaming articles in the future, I'm going to be writing comic books or novels. Therefore, I want the forward face of the website to more accurately represent what I do NOW, rather than what I did in 2006. The Play Theory and New World articles get to stay because they are as much about writing as they are about gaming, but everything else is getting shunted here.

In a weird way, though, this may actually encourage me to write more gaming stuff. If I know that something I thought up in my spare time is not going to get the scrutiny of being the First New Gaming Article On the Site in Five Years, I may not be as worried about it.

I read them.

Any hints on what the novels will be about? Still set in a Dnd esque world?

Couldn't you just move the article to an obscure place? Something that has been archived but still referenced by those of us who use/want to use them?