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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Hello, everyone!

    I was just thumbing through my Monster Manual, taking a look at the Tarrasque. Ah, the Invincible Tarrasque! So strong there is only one in existance! Not only is it next to impossible to hit, but even if you DO hit it, it regenerates forty hit points a turn! And don't even TRY magic: if you do, it has a thirty percent chance of flying right back at you! Even if you DO manage to bring the thing down, it will get right back up unless you wish it to STAY dead! And, naturally, it has a CR of 20...

    And, when you turn the page, you'll see the Titan. Wow, big guy with hammer and magic. And half the HP of a Tarrasque. Yip-py. But look at it's challenge rating...Twenty one.

    Now, I was just wondering...how, for the love of Pelor is a lowly Titan a twenty-freaking-one, while the almighty Tarrasque just a twenty? Could somebody explain this to me?

    And don't even get me started on the Leviathan...

    So yeah. If anybody could help me out with this, it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advanced...

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Cause a 18th level lich would have no problem killing it. But he would have problems with the titan.

    The Tarrasque has an SR of 32. Greater spell penetration +4 Now I have to roll a 10 to effect it with a death spell. Then wish it dead.
    A titan is a 20th level fighter and a 20th level spellcaster rolled into one. Its smart, and will use its magical items.

    I can't just fly out of its reach and kill it.
    Always attack a manís strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle thatís where the action is. And itís the same in life. Donít run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Oh...I didn't see it that way. Hm.

    In that case, I WILL get into the Leviathan.

    Why is it's five CR higher than the Tarrasque? (You can find the Leviathan in the MMII!)

    (Note: I get the sneaking suspicion that my MMII is out of date, but I don't have any proof to back this up. If anybody has a recent version of the MMII, tell me what the Leviathan's CR is, and why on EARTH it is five levels higher than the Tarrasque...)

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    LOL you want somthing to fear? try the lvl 40+ chars being run at my local store. one guy wants to use a Tarrasque as a MOUNT.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Please tell me they didn't make the Tarrasque able to die by death spells. Besides, most of the spells shooting at it bounce off, when you unleash a fireball only to watch it fly away in the other direction, thats annoying.

    But whenever I use the Tarrasque, I scratched out the wish dead thing. Doesn't matter how hard you try, you just gotta let the beast go on it's rampage. In my mind, it's the unstoppable force, you REALLY can't kill it.
    "Yes, I am shaking in my omnipotent boots at their new outfits. I am helpless against the powers of fashion."

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Why is it's five CR higher than the Tarrasque? (You can find the Leviathan in the MMII!)
    No clue... I guess they think someone fighting it would worry about drowning. But its a 3.0 book and not a 3.5.

    Besides, most of the spells shooting at it bounce off
    Rays, lines and cones bounce off. Fireballs work just fine.

    Ya wana have some fun. Through your 18+ level party at a greater cadaver collector see if they can win.
    Always attack a manís strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle thatís where the action is. And itís the same in life. Donít run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercutio
    I WILL get into the Leviathan.
    Why is it's five CR higher than the Tarrasque? (You can find the Leviathan in the MMII!)
    Have you ever run a successful underwater battle? Players can't see beyond the exact range of their light spells, breathe only through magic, cast silent spells or none at all, and have a swim speed like a struggling raccoon in a burlap sack. Various items (pearl of the sirines, ioun stones) and spells (water breathing, polymorph) HELP you fight underwater. The Leviathan comes up from beneath you, grapples you, and then swims down until you are crushed to death. No one can catch up to it, and teleporting underwater... well, let's just say that it all looks the same.

    Also, SR 36 (which is somewhat hard to break for a 20th-level caster, who isn't massively munchkined), DR 10/-, which helps it out against all weapon attacks (which, by the way, always hit its pathetic AC 22).

    It has weaknesses, granted- its AC gives it very little survivability, and it can't regenerate. And its Will save is pathetic for a CR 25. I'm not saying 25 is the right CR for the thing, but remember that it's a hard thing to fight if it gets the drop on an unprepared party travelling overseas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Splendor
    Through your 18+ level party at a greater cadaver collector see if they can win.
    Those things are somewhat ridiculous to throw at regular PCs. Ones that can't beat its grapple modifiers.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

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    'Psionics' is just tapping into the core of magic within yourself, whereas the mumbo-jumbo dancing, gibbering, and flinging around esoteric material components is like trying to paint-by-numbers when the guy next to you is rendering works from Picasso by memory alone.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Pearl of the sirines takes care of water pressure, casting spells, and movement.
    Leviathan can only see as far underwater as a character can.
    And their will save is only +13.
    20 level + spell penetration: +24 I now have to roll a 12.
    A touch of idiocy can drop its INT to 0. At 0 INT you go unconscious. Leviathans, being air breathers will float. How long does it take to kill it now?
    Always attack a manís strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle thatís where the action is. And itís the same in life. Donít run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Have you ever run a successful underwater battle? Players can't see beyond the exact range of their light spells, breathe only through magic, cast silent spells or none at all, and have a swim speed like a struggling raccoon in a burlap sack. Various items (pearl of the sirines, ioun stones) and spells (water breathing, polymorph) HELP you fight underwater. The Leviathan comes up from beneath you, grapples you, and then swims down until you are crushed to death. No one can catch up to it, and teleporting underwater... well, let's just say that it all looks the same.
    Well, I sorta figured the same Lich that death'D my Tarrasque would "Fly" over the Leviathan and death it as well. But, I see your point, I guess. But I didn't think CR was based off the area that the monster usually hangs out in. I mean, would "Weaky Mc. Weak" have a high CR if his habitat was the Spiked Fields of Acid?

    Ya wana have some fun. Through your 18+ level party at a greater cadaver collector see if they can win.
    >_> I think the Tarrasque beats the Spiky Robot. But I always thought the Cadaver Collector was pretty cool anyway...

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    A touch of idiocy can drop its INT to 0. At 0 INT you go unconscious
    .

    Wow.... I guess I'd kill the Tarrasque the same way.
    Always attack a manís strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle thatís where the action is. And itís the same in life. Donít run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by Godhand
    Please tell me they didn't make the Tarrasque able to die by death spells.
    Not exactly... if the Tarrasque fails its save versus a "die instantly" type of spell, its nonlethal damage total instantly gets raised to the point where you can cast wish or miracle to keep it dead.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    A touch of idiocy can drop its INT to 0. At 0 INT you go unconscious.
    If you KO a Tarrasque in that fashion, can you Wish it dead?

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercutio

    If you KO a Tarrasque in that fashion, can you Wish it dead?
    No. You have to raise its non-lethal damage to 868, then cast wish. No other forms of killing the Tarrasque work.

    Also, those death spells assume the Tarrasque and its +38 Fort Save fail against your save DC. So you've got a 5% chance each round with that strategy.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Hey, it's unconscious. If the DM rules that it has to be in negative HP for you to actually wish it dead, you can always CDG it until it *does* go into negative HP.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercutio
    If you KO a Tarrasque in that fashion, can you Wish it dead?
    No. You need to drop it to -30 hp before you can use wish. Using a death effect achieves this. Touch of idiocy does not.

    Correction is in later post
    The Future just ainít what it used to be.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    From Touch of Idiocy:
    With a touch, you reduce the targetís mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the targetís Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty canít reduce any of these scores below 1.
    So it wont work. Plus, its a touch attack, and theres all sorts of reasons touching a Mr.T doesnt work well.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by Splendor
    Cause a 18th level lich would have no problem killing it. But he would have problems with the titan.

    The Tarrasque has an SR of 32. Greater spell penetration +4 Now I have to roll a 10 to effect it with a death spell. Then wish it dead.
    A titan is a 20th level fighter and a 20th level spellcaster rolled into one. Its smart, and will use its magical items.

    I can't just fly out of its reach and kill it.
    Ok, AND you need it to fail it's FORTITUDE SAVE. wich, with it's +38 will not be very easy.

    If you use a 9th level spell and have a 30 at your relevant atribute, that means that the tarrasque has only a chance to fail on a botch. And he can save his SR.

    The chance you can affect the tarrasque this way is just a 2.5%, wich is quite slin.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoeKun

    No. You have to raise its non-lethal damage to 868, then cast wish. No other forms of killing the Tarrasque work.

    Also, those death spells assume the Tarrasque and its +38 Fort Save fail against your save DC. So you've got a 5% chance each round with that strategy.

    don't forget it has 50% chance of blocking it with his SR

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Wouldn't you have to raise it's non-lethal damage to 868 and keep it there, since it regenerates 40 every round? Just checking.
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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    yeah, seriously. Death spells from an 18th level caster are pretty unlikely to work without some major DC boosting effects. Not to mention you've got to deal with the fact that any spell (with greater spell penetration) has a 50% chance of not working from SR alone. Then factor in the problem that the save DC for your death spell is probably only about 36 max (assuming heightened to level 9, improved spell focus (necromancy) and Int of 40) meaning the tarrasque still has to roll a 1 to fail the save.

    The 'fly out of it's reach' strategy will keep you sucessfully alive (assuming you aren't caught by surpise or lose initiative) but considering it's immune to something like 60-75% of the core book's damage dealing spells, has massive saves, and regen 40 it's quite easy for a tarrasque to absorb the entire spells/day of an 18th level wizard without coming close to dying.

    The only viable option at that level is mind-affecting spells...which I'm shocked it's not immune to. but even dropping it's int score isn't likely to kill it, unless you've got a full party with epic weapons at least. you still have to deal with it's massive passive defenses.
    Howler in Darkness Avatar by Beleriphon&&Clan of Cthulhu&&don\'t make me rip the sanity from your pitiful human brain.&&&&

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    We still haven't answered why the heck it's a CR 20 encounter. I'm just as confused as the others.

    I'm pretty sure a Touch of Idiocy would hurt it a bit, cause Int 1 is the same intelligence as a toad. And we ALL know how intelligent those are.

    So how the heck do you kill a Tarrasque? Stand inside it's stomach with a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lightning Burst Dagger and hit it over and over until it's dead??
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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    So how the heck do you kill a Tarrasque? Stand inside it's stomach with a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lightning Burst Dagger and hit it over and over until it's dead??
    Uh...I think it's immune to fire, so Flaming wouldn't help either.

    But a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lighting Burst Dagger would be pretty pimpin' anyway.

    ***Oh, and it occures to me, If you had a Brilliant Energy weapon, Power Attack and crazy epic-level BAB, you might be able to take it down. But I mean, CRAZY epic level BAB...

    And would Vorpal Weapons work?

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion-the-G
    yeah, seriously. Death spells from an 18th level caster are pretty unlikely to work without some major DC boosting effects. Not to mention you've got to deal with the fact that any spell (with greater spell penetration) has a 50% chance of not working from SR alone. Then factor in the problem that the save DC for your death spell is probably only about 36 max (assuming heightened to level 9, improved spell focus (necromancy) and Int of 40) meaning the tarrasque still has to roll a 1 to fail the save.

    The 'fly out of it's reach' strategy will keep you sucessfully alive (assuming you aren't caught by surpise or lose initiative) but considering it's immune to something like 60-75% of the core book's damage dealing spells, has massive saves, and regen 40 it's quite easy for a tarrasque to absorb the entire spells/day of an 18th level wizard without coming close to dying.

    The only viable option at that level is mind-affecting spells...which I'm shocked it's not immune to. but even dropping it's int score isn't likely to kill it, unless you've got a full party with epic weapons at least. you still have to deal with it's massive passive defenses.
    Even that crazy caster using mind affecting spells, using a 9th level one still has 40% of affecting him.
    And even an unmoving tarrasque is HARD to kill

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889
    Wouldn't you have to raise it's non-lethal damage to 868 and keep it there, since it regenerates 40 every round? Just checking.
    Oh, yeah. I'm getting my edition wires crossed.

    You need to dead 868 nonlethal damage, then use the wish.

    And a successful death spell puts it at 868. Touch of idiocy does not.
    The Future just ainít what it used to be.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Int 1 is the same as most animals (1-2 range), won't really affect a creature like the tarrasque at all (2 points of int loss doesn't mean it doesn't know how to bite you).

    The tarrasque really isn't meant to be a '20th level characters can kill it' encounter, 20th leve characters might be able to survive or defeat it however, but probably not without at least one death.

    The titan, I honestly have no clue why they're so powerful, they're not even as strong as they used to be when they had a 20th level spellcasting class.
    Howler in Darkness Avatar by Beleriphon&&Clan of Cthulhu&&don\'t make me rip the sanity from your pitiful human brain.&&&&

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Wait, how much does a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lighting Burst Dagger do? That's 1d4+5, +1d6 Cold, +1d6 Fire, +1d6 Lightning, plus Strength, plus if a critical, +1d10 Fire and +1d10 Lightning. Assuming you can't sneak attack a stomach, thats:

    1d4+5+1d6+1d6+1d6+Strength Bonus, +1d10+1d10 if critical.

    You're right, that would be cool. What ability could you replace Flaming Burst with other than Frost Burst?

    Edit: Pump up your Tarrasque's CR with these templates today!
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20051109a
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Oh, you forgot Corrosive (from the DMG2!) and...uhm, I'm sure there is a "Sound Burst" somewhere... You could have like, a Sword of Elemential Mastery!

    But that is niether here nor there. I think it has been proven that, with it's insane Fort save, the Tarrasque is effectively immune to almost all non-epic level Death spells. Which brings us back to the ORIGINAL debate: how is a Titan stronger than a Tarrasque? I realize that it is easier to stay AWAY from a Tarrasque, but I assumed that the CR was how easy it is to take the thing DOWN, not mearly flee from it...

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889
    ...assuming you can't sneak attack a stomach...
    I'm almost certain you can't. While the target obviously has no chance to dodge the hit, you can't discern any viable weak points from inside the stomach.

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    Quote Originally Posted by Godhand
    In my mind, it's the unstoppable force, you REALLY can't kill it.
    Eh, that's only because your default mentality is on the power level most people are on, not the ultra high level stuff a few indulge in.
    ;)
    Jeff

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    Default Re: Tarrasque Vs. Titan

    yes, with epic powers the tarrasque does fall in the 'killable' range. I've done it but only with a decent team and 25 character levels under my belt.
    Howler in Darkness Avatar by Beleriphon&&Clan of Cthulhu&&don\'t make me rip the sanity from your pitiful human brain.&&&&

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