Apocalypse World

[Totally Guy]

I downloaded Apocalyse World by Vince Baker on Monday. I'm waiting for the physical book. The Book+PDF deal satisfies both the impulse buy and the rational part of my brain.

It looks pretty amazing but I think there will be some pain to go through when adjusting to the GM move stucture.

I need to really absorb this one.

Anyone played it?

And holy hell that's a lot of bad language!

[Britter]

I bought a copy at PAX East this month. I did not get a chance to run a demo.

Honestly, it seems very good, but at the same time I feel like I am just not quite getting it. I am only about halfway through though, so hopefully it will make more sense once I have read it all and digested it a bit.

I like a lot of what I am reading, I just can't quite figure out how exactly it will play yet.

[The Rose Dragon]

This stuff sounds hot to death. Is there a .pdf only version, or am I stuck with ordering a hardcopy I don't want?

[Totally Guy]

Yeah there's a PDF! Here.

[Britter]

And I think "hot to death" is a great description. It is a very interesting game, very challenging conceptually, and I think it will sizzle on the table.

Once I figure it out, anyway.

[Totally Guy]

The character classes seem quite Firefly-esque to me.

You've got:

Angel: Simon
Battlebabe: Zoe
Brainer: River
Driver: Wash
Gunlugger: Jayne
Savvyhead: Kaylee
Skinner: Inara

Mal is none of the 3 leader classes... maybe an Operator.
Book doesn't quite fit the Hocus class...

I don't normally go for classes but these guys all seem awesome.

[Britter]

Agreed. It definitely has that vibe.

I hesitate to call them classes...they are more like archetypes...but they do have a lot of mechanical similarities to classes.

It is really interesting design. I rather like the sections on how to GM the game. Good stuff.

[The Rose Dragon]

The description of my impression of the game seems more appropriate than I thought, then.

[Britter]

Eh, I dunno.

These classes, if you even can call them that, have about as much in common with a DnD class as a Toyota Prius has with a Bugatti Veyron. That is to say, they are both cars, but thats really about it.

For starters, you can only have one copy of each character in play. If I choose to be an Angel, than I am the Angel. If you opt to be the Hardholder, than you are the only one. There may be other hardholders in the world, but you are the archeype, the one the story is about, and the others are either potential allies, potential threats, or scenery.

Nextly, they have a focused but custimizable skill and attribute set. Each class (and I really don't like that word for them, but it is a convenient shorthand) is designed to have a very specific feel in play. The abilities that they have will most assuredly help with esthablishing that feel.

Finally, though I haven't played the game yes, it is VERY clear from the rulebook that it is not in any way similar to any class-based game I have ever played. Vince Baker did some really interesting work here, and this is a game that is alot more about how the character relationships interact, about dealing with sudden and unexpected change, and with being awesome in a world full of apocalyptica.

If I could think of a better word to describe the different types of character beyond "class", I would use it. Saying it is a class-based system is not doing it justice in any way.

[Totally Guy]

I guess that's just my initial reaction. I saw them all there and just thought "Oh, look, classes."

I guess it is a bit more nebulous that I thought...

I was however inspired to buy this game after coming across this Dungeon World hack and wondering what it was.

[Britter]

Yeah, I agree Glug, "class" is the first word that comes to mind, but I really don't think it is accurate...I just dunno what other word will work, because they really are classes in a way.

I trust the game structure to be a lot more interesting and well built than other class-based systems I have played. And it is definitely NOTHING like DnD.

[Samurai Jill]

For starters, you can only have one copy of each character in play. If I choose to be an Angel, than I am the Angel. If you opt to be the Hardholder, than you are the only one. There may be other hardholders in the world, but you are the archeype, the one the story is about, and the others are either potential allies, potential threats, or scenery.

Actually, that's loosely similar to what you have in 4E D&D, given that each class fulfills a specific tactical role.

I'm guessing that AW's archetypes/templates differ from traditional class systems in that they do not have a binding impact on how the character is subsequently allowed to develop?

[Doc Roc]

Actually, that's loosely similar to what you have in 4E D&D, given that each class fulfills a specific tactical role.

I'm guessing that AW's archetypes/templates differ from traditional class systems in that they do not have a binding impact on how the character is subsequently allowed to develop?

You left out the bit where 4e has three tactical roles.

[Samurai Jill]

You left out the bit where 4e has three tactical roles.

Four, I thought? Striker, defender, controller and leader? But yeah, even if you have more than 4 players, the actual classes are tailored to fulfill specific sub-niches within that role, so they don't directly complete. (The general implication being, don't have multiple players taking the same class.)

[Xefas]

I'm guessing that AW's archetypes/templates differ from traditional class systems in that they do not have a binding impact on how the character is subsequently allowed to develop?

I would say "classes" is a good way to put it. I think the term "class" just has a bad stigma from D&D.

In Apocalypse World, the class does have quite a bit to do with who your character is and how they develop. You can take a few abilities from other classes, but first and foremost, you are an X, and it is purposefully impossible for you to not be distinguished as an X.

Your class determines your starting stats, the pool of abilities you draw from, what equipment you can have, how can you spend points for character advancement, and even what clothing you wear. For instance, I believe the Brainer is the only one who can wear Fetish Bondage Gear. Conceivably, someone else could, but for narrative purposes, it is functionally impossible, because you are this archetype and nothing else. Choppers wear biker outfits, not bondage gear, and they never will.

It seems very restrictive at first, but the fact is that, in play, it becomes apparent that if you focus more on what is malleable, and just willingly play with type in the stuff that isn't so malleable, awesome invariably happens.

A bit like if a Fox executive tells you that you need a sexy love interest slash prostitute on your cast, and you improvise a badass space geisha out of that.

[Indurain]

I've just recently gotten involved in a game of AW (Our 5th session is Friday). I'm really enjoying it, as are the players and MC around me. It's been a bit of a growing process for all of us, as no one had played AW before. (Though some people have played Baker's Dogs in the Vineyard)

As for the "class" discussion. I do feel that you get kinda tied into the class you choose, but that that's not really what's important. The fun I get out of the game is developing the personality of my character and seeing where the story takes him.

With AW, the story develops around the players, so sure it's possible to fall into easy stereotypes, but with creative and adventurous players (and a good MC), this "class" restriction will not be an issue.

Overall though, I find my short time in AW, has been more amusing than almost all of my time spent in any D&D world.

[Samurai Jill]

It seems very restrictive at first, but the fact is that, in play, it becomes apparent that if you focus more on what is malleable, and just willingly play with type in the stuff that isn't so malleable, awesome invariably happens.

Very interesting. I'll try and check it at some point.

[Totally Guy]

I've just recently gotten involved in a game of AW (Our 5th session is Friday). I'm really enjoying it, as are the players and MC around me.

Out of interest, which guy are you playing? How is it? And why did the pick the one you chose?

Has the sex mechanic been well utilised?

[Indurain]

Out of interest, which guy are you playing? How is it? And why did the pick the one you chose?

Has the sex mechanic been well utilised?

I'm playing The Driver. I have enjoyed it for the most part. Our group has been cursed with some poorly timed bad rolls, but that only serves to make the story more interesting.

I chose the driver because I was looking to play a flashy character. Brash, arrogant, and showy, and there seemed to be some good options in the driver class. I also really like the challenge of having him be at a disadvantage when he's not in his car. (But when I'm in Sophia, watch out! )

The only sex that's occurred in the campaign was a custom move that the MC made for my character. I aced the roll and the story continued. In our campaign though, our group dynamic wouldn't really make for any PC "encounters".

[Xefas]

I know this isn't particularly related to the thread's subject, but I just wanted you all to know that I'm currently rampaging across all of your posts with one of those katamari balls.

Spoiler

Show

On a more on-topic note, what are some of y'alls favorite possible explanations as to the nature of the psychic maelstrom (which will most likely also overlap with your explanation of the apocalypse itself)?

I like the idea of the apocalypse being caused by something similar to the Human Instrumentality Project, and the psychic maelstrom is that big ball of tang and melded consciousnesses. It's now a big, mostly omniscient, simulacrum-deity, and it'll talk to you if you open your mind enough for it to get inside. Really, it's just hoping you'll let your guard down enough that it can suck your consciousness out and into itself (which is what happens to people who die from maelstrom-related effects, or if they die shortly after they've opened their mind).

Alternatively, the psychic maelstrom is The Afterlife, and instead of it being some kind of place aligned to a morality or religion, it's just a place that happened entirely by accident (similar to the happenstance that created life or the universe itself), and is exceptionally boring. When you open your brain to it, you're just talking to really bored blobs of dead brainwaves who will answer your questions (and ask questions of you) so they have something to do. When you take damage from opening your mind to the maelstrom, its because so many dead folks are trying to cram into your head at once, so that they can experience some small part of the living world again.

And, for a third option, it's (effectively) The Warp.

[SageLT]

One thing to note about the AW classes (and yeah, I'd call them that) is that they are one-of-a-kind. Most people end up referring to it as playing "the drive" not "a driver." There are other people with crazy modified cars wandering the wastes, but you're the driver.

Oh, and Glug, glad that Dungeon World pointed you at the real thing! I'm one of the DW designers, and I'm always happy to hear that Dungeon World lead someone to try out Apocalypse World. It's a really amazing game.

[Totally Guy]

Nice one Sage. I'll potentially look at your stuff again once I've familiarised myself with the AW game through play.

Xefas: I like the interpration of the maelstrom being related to intrumentality. I was struggling to imagine just what it's meant to represent. I thought maybe it was a pop-culture refence that I didn't get.

[SageLT]

I've never been entirely sure what the psychic maelstrom is, but I do know how some of my characters interacted with it (which is almost as fun).

For my driver, it was like a mental radio station. Especially while on the road, he'd just kind of tune out reality and start hearing what sounded like old radio dramas. I never found out what exactly was beyond the psychic maelstrom (which you can do with the expanded Open Your Mind move), but I like to imagine it was whatever limbo-like studio these radio dramas were taking place in.

My hocus thought the psychic maelstrom was a deity, more or less. Unfortunately, it didn't feel the same about him.

[Totally Guy]

My hard copy of the book showed up today. That'll help me read it better. I just can't concentrate for as long on the screen.

[Kneenibble]

Let me begin by saying that I dislike D&D, and have never played it (longer than I needed to know I disliked it, that is) or any other tabletop RPG besides this one.

Last autumn a good friend of mine invited me to the Apocalypse World game he was playing. I was reluctant because of its possible similarity to D&D, but decided to give it a try. We played from August until December nearly every week. It was a blast.

I liked the very loose rules that emphasized acting and imagination and collective story-telling, and that minimized dice-rolling and too many numbers and metagame. The thin, interpretive structure brought out a high calibre of creativity.

Weird moves became especially enjoyable for this reason. Because it's so undefined, it allowed us to build the world together via the "yes, and" improv philosophy. Failed weird moves even more so.*

I liked the horrible toilet of post-apocalyptic butt****ery the game encourages, and the rare moments of beauty that shine the brighter out of it.

The one thing we did all come to agree on was that the game mechanics start to break down after a while. When we ended the game in December, our first characters had cycled through a few classes each and were running out of improvements to take; some of us had even taken second characters. In retrospect we could/should have ended the game a lot sooner than we did.

*The maelstrom was never fully defined in our game, and I like that. It became the place where people, totally scarred and broken and callused and unable to comfortably open up emotionally to anybody, discovered their real identities and desires and how to be voluntarily vulnerable with their fellow humans.

**My enjoyment of the game really relied on the openness and grooviness of my acting partners. The GM was a pure artist of characters and situations, but also was very content to let the players do their thing and build the world along with him. & It was incredibly touching to me when another player, who is a married man, took the risk of exploring a romance between our characters: his a male Savvyhead who became a Battle Babe, mine a drag queen Chopper who became an Angel. - even to the point of using sex moves.



tl;dr
It's a really neat game, but if you want to roll dice, kill monsters, and get to level 20, then gtfo.

My first and probably last enjoyable tabletop RPG experience.

[Britter]

My first and probably last enjoyable tabletop RPG experience.

I doubt it. There are a bunch of games out there that are nothing like DnD and that focus on and attract the type of player who is interested in the style of gaming that seems to appeal to you. Don't give up hope. If you are interested in the experience, and in playing that sort of game, there are many opportunities to do so.

[Totally Guy]

Damn, there's an extra character playbook bundled with the game now..

I only bought it recently. So that's annoying.

[Xefas]

Damn, there's an extra character playbook bundled with the game now..

I only bought it recently. So that's annoying.

What, there is? I know that there was one for pre-ordering before a certain date, and a few for contributing to various charities. The Quarantine, Hoarder, Faceless, and Maestro D.

So there's another one now?

[Totally Guy]

So there's another one now?

The Touchstone.

Vincent baker put up this message encouraging folks to trade them with each other. But I got into it at the wrong time clearly as I didn't see any of those guys anywhere before. It'll make me feel like a jerk if I take them from somewhere without "trading" as requested.

[Xefas]

The Touchstone.

Cool.

So, Chapter 13 of the Apocalypse World rulebook. Best RPG manual chapter name ever; everyone agree/disagree?