Psykers and DH

[profitofrage]

Hello Playground.

Due to a rather long discussion in my previous thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...1#post10596621
Its come to my attention that Psykers in Dark Heresy (not acension since...well duh) are a bit to powerful.

I plan to write up some extensive hombrew rules that I myself use often, however I would like your opinion Playground...what do you do to balance (or more to the point control) psykers?

Homebrew so far:

Spoiler

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Force Barrage - Acts as force bolt, but the overbleed does not apply to the force bolt itself - thus keeping its static damage.

Force barrage - counts as an attack and thus can be dodged, cover also counts towards damage mitigation.

Phenomina cannot be avoidded via the spending of fate points.

[Lycan 01]

I just let them screw themselves over. Specifically, there was one time where a trio of cloaked figures showed up and tried to convince the PC's to hand over the heretic they'd caught, claiming they were members of the Inquisition and they had higher authority than the PCs. Well... they were telling the truth.

But the Psyker didn't want to be diplomatic. He thought it would be funny to do Touch of Madness on the tallest cloaked figure. Even though the Arbitrator was doing rather well with the negotiations. So the Psyker tried to pretty much screw over the whole situation for kicks and giggles. But it backfired. Do you want to know why it backfired?

The target was a Daemonhost.

The Psyker promptly found himself being psychically hurled through the air, and the other cloaked figures panicked and ran as the Daemonhost decided to have some fun with the idiot who tried to mess with him.

Thankfully, the team survived the ordeal. The Daemonhost disappeared after they damaged it beyond a certain point, and the cloaked Radical guys managed to work out a deal with the Arbitrator - the Radicals got the Xeno guy, and the PC's got to leave without any further conflict or repercussions. (If the fight had carried on, it would have been a bloodbath - the Radicals had bolters! ) So yeah... The Psyker learned not to be an idiot, the hard way. XD



Now, there was one time where I put a bomb in the Psyker's head in case he went crazy... But that backfired when the person who possessed to code word fell to Chaos, and the Psyker tried to be a hero.

[Swordguy]

Mechanically, it's correct that psykers in DH are exceptionally powerful, especially if they select the right talents. Granted, this is in Dark Heresy, not Ascension, so they aren't as bad as you might be led to believe. But the limiting factor on Psykers in the 40K setting isn't the mechanics and they were never intended to BE the limiting factor. The limiting factor on psykers is the setting itself.

Every PC psyker is going to have had to go through a journey on the Black Ships and the process of Imperial Sanctioning. The book is fairly clear that this process leaves psykers damaged - both physically (scars, replaced body parts, stuff like hexagrammic wards tattoo'd about the lips), and mentally. Psykers go through an extremely extensive process that essentially instills them with the inherent desire and need to obey orders. Psykers are TOOLS of the Imperium, not really people. While the Inquisition tends to select those psykers who aren't totally subservient to whomever is issuing the orders (the =][= psykers need to have some level of independent decision-making capabilities), they still don't want psykers who are going to use their powers without direct orders or very good reason. There's a term for psykers who use their powers without orders or authorization: rogue. And the Inquisition goes to ridiculous lengths to stamp on rogue psykers - to the point where you as the GM can simply say "I don't care what mechanics you have, you're done."

During the Eisenhorn Trilogy, for example, the Inquisition mobilized several planets worth of Imperial Guard, portions of two chapters of Space Marines, about 50 Inquisitors and their retinues, and a sector BattleFleet of 50+ ships to go after about a half-dozen rogue psykers. The Inquisition doesn't believe in "overkill". If the psyker in the game gets out of hand, this is the entirely appropriate and canonical response...and to hell with whether it's good "game theory" or not. You chose to play the psyker, this is a possible consequence of roleplaying one badly.

Why did I use the word "badly" just now? Because, played "correctly" or "well", a psyker won't get to that point. Regardless of the fact that he can do insane things, mechanically, he should forever and always be subject to the trauma dealt to him during the sanctioning process. He should always WANT to follow orders, to submit to authority, and to remember that because he's a psyker, he's dammed just for existing...but as long as he's a good boy, the Emperor might grant him a bit of mercy. Maybe.

And if he's not sanctioned? Well, he can do what he wants...right up until somebody notices he's not sanctioned. Then you can start referencing the events from the Eisenhorn trilogy I mentioned.

(Oh! Don't forget that this is just stuff from the Imperium that keeps psykers in check! Don't you think LOTS of Chaos Cultists and such would like to turn said psyker to their team? Or, if they can't have him, make sure nobody can.)

[profitofrage]

I absolutly agree with you that the setting is the biggest limiting factor.
HOWEVER
What happens when the psyker is following orders?
A psyker can one shot (after level 6) almost anything in the game with the right optimisation. He doesnt need to go rouge to still completly out perform the entire party.

This thread is to discuss methods of hombrew that show (in game mechanics) a way of limiting the psyker to be more balanced at these much higher levels. (aside from just a "gentlemens agreement not to own everything")

[Ranos]

Fluff restrictions just don't work. Sure, the psyker is a tool who has to obey orders and not be a complete powertripping idiot. Newsflash, this applies for every acolyte.

Maybe you could simply not allow psykers. There are plenty of ways for other characters to be fun and diverse. Faith powers, gear, skill specializations, hell, if you really want psychic characters, wyrd or hive mutant lets you have a few minor powers. Adepts have a few as well, and so do sorcerers (but with much higher risks than psykers).

[profitofrage]

Those are all options for the campaign to stay balanced.
But thats not the point of the thread. The thread is here to try and find a way to make Psykers "less broken" obviously no caster class will ever be truly balanced simply because of the sheer diversity they hold.

I proposition that Force Barrage acts as forcebolt. but the force bolts dont gain overbleed. Thus each bolt stays at its static damage instead of gaining more and more.

[Surrealistik]

Those are all options for the campaign to stay balanced.
But thats not the point of the thread. The thread is here to try and find a way to make Psykers "less broken" obviously no caster class will ever be truly balanced simply because of the sheer diversity they hold.

I proposition that Force Barrage acts as forcebolt. but the force bolts dont gain overbleed. Thus each bolt stays at its static damage instead of gaining more and more.

That's a start, however alone that doesn't quite balance Force Barrage, and making it useless against high armour/toughness enemies is far from an ideal solution. I'd say a better fix is to instead take inspiration from the Force attacks in Rogue Trader/Deathwatch and build on those.

[profitofrage]

I personally dislike Rouge trader. I honesty have never known why I do. Deathwatch I love its great to play space marines..but for the strangest reason I have never taken to Rouge Trader..which was basically the begining of 40k to start with.

In any case, I think It balances force barrage rather nicely. It makes the botls themselves no much more damaging then automatic weapons, and is less effective against high toughness enemies...if they want raw damage output thats what the single forcebolt is for. It would prevent One hit kills on "everything" and make it a "one hit kill on weak - mid str opponants." + "hit many targets" Which i think is rather reasonable.
Plus it should be dodged, since it is an attack of sorts I see no reason why someone cant just jump out of the way. It doesnt imply that its undodgeable..or that its homing just that its a bolt of force.
Which of course would mean that cover applies as well. Further reducing its lethality while still making it a nice buy for psykers wishing for better crowd control.

[gdiddy]

I thought Perils were supposed to police psykers. You don't need homebrew, just let the the odds turn him into a daemonhost.

Is he building around avoiding Perils? Well, he's an acolyte, who is operating in the worst of situations, where the veil between the reality and the veil is weakest. So his super-stable psyker is now rolling phenomena and perils on a 20+ if he is near a cult or in the presence of any warp weapon.

The GM section of DH, specifically says to have this happen occasionally.

It's not really Dark Heresy until he accidentally reverses gravity while driving a truck and causes it to overturn, killing half the other players in the resulting crash and the rest when the thing they're chasing catches up to him.

[profitofrage]

yes perils can help, however if you check the thread I mention in my first post youll see that this doesnt police it nearly well enough in the later levels (5+)
The result is that the later half of the game (not counting acension) The psyker can and will always attack first..and can one shot even daemonhosts.
Fate points mean you can negate perils..and since you have about 2-3 per session its more likely youll never spend them then you will get perils.

Which leads me to my next suggestion
Fate points cannot be spent to reroll phenomina occuring.

[gdiddy]

I thought this was always the case, at least it is in RT and errata.

But, yeah, reasonable.

I guess my next question is how did you let the psyker live that long?

Why are you making encounters so easily won? He should be burning fate points to deal with the Incubi that just decided they want to macrame his entrails into friendship bracelets, not prevent his hair from getting mussed by the warp.

[profitofrage]

well as a GM you may very well like to single out players to kill off for the sole purpose of stopping there problems late game. However there are alot of GM's out there who dont, instead creating a fair playing field in respects to the setting and game mechanics. ( I understand the psyker SHOULD be targeted by warp, cultist, psychic enemies more so then the other players..but if your sending threats they cannot hope to defeat then its not really a game its a slaughter.)

Thus we have to assume that if any other character can live that long, thus so should the psyker. Whats more is with smart Exp purchases you can have the psyker survive just as easily (if not more so) then the other carreers.

[gdiddy]

I don't target psykers, until they start using powers. Then, they will become the target of every baddie with an int above 25. Not singling them out. I think that is an unfair DM trick.

But when constructing DH encounters, I plan intelligently, because I want my players to surprise me when they make it out alive. 1-2 player deaths an adventure is not outside the norm.

Our last encounter:

Secure Imperial desert compound. Apparently abandoned. Let them report in and get their bearings, investigating the eerie silence of the base. Oh wait, it wasn't abandoned, it got taken in by a genestealer cult and are now calling in the tendril of a splinter hive.

Sure, I'll leave my players a get away lighter, but I'll also have the genestealer cultists come out of the floor on round 2. If they can't kill the zoanthrope before leaving, it has a 50% chance of downing the lighter each round for 5 rounds, a percentage they can modify with piloting skills. Of wait, the pilot died in combat? I guess they need to get to the land speeder hanger a quarter mile through the compound.

There in that hanger, fuel/promethium cannisters litter the floor. If the cannisters go up, the land speeders are destroyed and they need to walk out: a sure fire way to die one by one on the way to another transport option as the genestealers run them down in the desert.

Disorient them. Keep them scared. They are not the heroes. This is Dark Heresy. Give the Ascension Book and then laugh as they hope, because THEY WILL NEVER GET TO USE IT.

Also, if the other players are not having fun because a Psyker is one shotting everything, I expect everyone will talk it out. This will probably result in the psyker being promoted out of the group and sent off to be awesome somewhere else.

[profitofrage]

Ok I do understand the love of making gamers squirm and beg in the face of sheer destruction they only have the slightest of chances of surviving. However this thread isnt about what we do to make sure nothing progresses to that stage.
Its about what we do when and if we do get there.
Whats more, is that although it is perfectly reasonable to come to a 'gentlemens agreement' over the continued existance or behavior of the psyker, this threads objective was really more to find a mechanical way to accomplish the same sorts of things, that way psykers know from the start what they can and cant do and makes things far more agreeable later in the game.

on a final note :P may I steal that campaign idea? Although I would suspect Genestealers to pick a more inhabited or vital point to infiltrate (unless said facility was indeed vital) its still a brilliant Idea for a one off adventure.

[gdiddy]

I just think what you're after is coming from a WotC mentality and just really outside the feeling and atmosphere of DH. The rules are not part of the game in DH.

Absolutely. I was totally lying and just came up with it on the fly while I was typing my post. If you're players go all tricksie hobbit on you and ask why genestealers went to a desert planet, explain that the Genestealers are after the hives, of which there were several on the planet.

[profitofrage]

Im afraid i have no idea what WotC is? In fact the only gaming systems I run are Deathwatch and Dark Heresy so if that concept is from something else Im not sure if it really applies right now. The feeling and atmosphere of Dh can be accomplished quite well without actually killing your characters in every session.
This isnt Call of Cathulu or Paranoia there are many different ways you can play the game. That is why they give you fate points to stave off death, the intention ISNT always to kill the characters thats just one way to play the game.

[Destro_Yersul]

The easiest way to balance psykers out is by using the rules as intended, as well as the setting. Force barrage came up in a game I was running. Both of those rules in your first post, I used. Force barrage can be dodged, because by common sense it is an attack. it even has a roll to hit. I believe I basically used it like a full-auto version of Force Bolt. It didn't gain any overbleed from that, because it's a seperate power. The bolts just happen to be the same sort of bolt.

Sure, the psyker still killed the baddie in one go, because it failed its dodge, but there were four others who promptly started carving up the rest of the party. For some reason he didn't seem to want to launch a force barrage into close combat with the squishier members of the group.

That same psyker has rather poor luck with perils. He seems to end up rolling a 9 on every other dice. Once he accidentally fried a whole hab-block full of people, all of whom began screaming and running. The group had to slip off quietly and abandon most of the data they were after.

The true limit on the power of psykers is the GM.

[profitofrage]

Rules as intended is always nice, and yes the setting itself is a huge factor for Psyker balance. Thank you for your post, since it solidifies that the homebrew mentioned woks in practise. The setting however doesnt play as large a part as you think on the psyker. Heres what would have happened if you DIDNT use the homebrew mentioned.

Spoiler

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round 1
Psyker goes first if they have preternatural dodge giving them 30+ initiative.
Uses Force barrage to One hit the Big bad guy.
Other people do meaningless things because the psyker can dodge whatever they got.

round 2
Psyker uses force barrage to one hit kill anything left because the power isnt specifically an attack and thus cannot be dodged / cannot hit others in close combat.

round 3 - whenever
Repeat round 2.

really it just ends up as the other players being a meatshield for the psyker.
not to mention that the psyker COULD split up his bolts to kill multiple targets at ounce if they dont have 15+ wounds each.

[Surrealistik]

The best way to deal with FB I think is to:

A: Make the bolts dodgable.

B: Have the overbleed increase the damage of the bolts only.

This has the advantage of reducing its raw damage output to far more acceptable levels, while simultaneously allowing FB's performance to remain adequate against tougher/more heavily armoured opponents.

There are other problems that remain though: Glimpse, Push, Seal Wounds, Precision Telekinesis and Preternatural Awareness as a couple of examples all give the Psyker too much flexibility and power.

[profitofrage]

Making Force barrage good against armored opponants with Less hits seems to be against the main point of the power i.e to hit many times.
Id personally rather give them the oppertunity to fire many weaker bolts then limit them to a small few and make them more powerful...thats what the singular force bolt is for.

as for the other powers.

Glimpse i dont see to much of an issue with..it can only be used with skill tests capable of being used in a half action? since its not sustained and is removed on the next round. Theres no overbleed and situational modifers effect it. Whats more is it cant be used on advance skills the psyker hasnt yet already purchased. Its skill tests only so it cant be used for attributes or anything..the most i see it used on is perhaps lore tests? or medicae? I dunno perhaps give me an example why this is bad? since it cant be used in conjunction with other things.

Push isnt to unbalanced...perhaps remove the +10 to the test on overbleed and its reasonable.

I have no issue with seal wounds...perhaps its threshold of 10. Id probably bump that to maybe 15-18. Most of the threats in DH are threats because they kill you / render you useless in one go anyway and if the psyker is sitting there healing constantly..hes not casting other powers.

Precision telekinesis is fine if you go RAI.
Precision telekinesis only uses willpower as the base test to accomplish the fine manipulation. I.e willpower test to fire the weapon...Ballistic to roll to hit. Precision telekinesis cannot be used to lift large loads only manipulate fine tasks.

Preternatural awareness isnt an issue, its a sustained power..BUT such powers outside of combat require a reroll every 30 or so in game seconds to continue manifesting the power. There going to fail eventually and that incurs potential perils on rerolling to manifest.
Thus realistically it can only be used when the psyker is prepared which I think is fine..since it meerily garentees they go first. OR when there already in combat of which they wont go first first round where they must then use the power. Which means the psyker can still be surprised and potentially controled (or forced to use other actions).

[Surrealistik]

Making Force barrage good against armored opponants with Less hits seems to be against the main point of the power i.e to hit many times.
Id personally rather give them the oppertunity to fire many weaker bolts then limit them to a small few and make them more powerful...thats what the singular force bolt is for.

The point of the power is to essentially be a more powerful version of Force Bolt, in much the same way Firestorm is a more powerful version of Fireball which _also_ is great at crowd control. Besides, as armor penetration goes, Force Bolt is already beat out and invalidated by most conventional weapons.

Glimpse i dont see to much of an issue with..it can only be used with skill tests capable of being used in a half action? since its not sustained and is removed on the next round. Theres no overbleed and situational modifers effect it. Whats more is it cant be used on advance skills the psyker hasnt yet already purchased. Its skill tests only so it cant be used for attributes or anything..the most i see it used on is perhaps lore tests? or medicae? I dunno perhaps give me an example why this is bad? since it cant be used in conjunction with other things.

It can be used on any skill. A +30 stacking bonus to _any_ skill is huge, and it's not actually limited to skill tests capable of being performed in a Half Action because it's until the end of your _next_ turn. It can also be done by Psi 4 with a single Psi dice.

Push isnt to unbalanced...perhaps remove the +10 to the test on overbleed and its reasonable.

Push is broken given the rules of Fatigue: you will almost beat the target's STR by a significant margin given that the power is Threshold 14, Overbleed 5.

I have no issue with seal wounds...perhaps its threshold of 10. Id probably bump that to maybe 15-18. Most of the threats in DH are threats because they kill you / render you useless in one go anyway and if the psyker is sitting there healing constantly..hes not casting other powers.

Seal Wound's Threshold was actually increased, and it's still too powerful for what it does in too little a time; nothing else in the game can bring an acolyte from critical damage to full health in half an action. That's insane. Almost totally invalidates Medicae by the way.

Precision telekinesis is fine if you go RAI.
Precision telekinesis only uses willpower as the base test to accomplish the fine manipulation. I.e willpower test to fire the weapon...Ballistic to roll to hit. Precision telekinesis cannot be used to lift large loads only manipulate fine tasks.

Going to have to disagree with you on the RAI. You're using your mind to guide and fire the weapon, so WP is what is tested. That said, fine manipulation of objects encompasses a _lot_ of skills and tests (Security, Concealment for hiding things, Medicae, Demolitions, etc...), and this power allows you to use your insanely highly WP attribute for all of them. What is RAI here is ambiguous and debatable as well.

Preternatural awareness isnt an issue, its a sustained power..BUT such powers outside of combat require a reroll every 30 or so in game seconds to continue manifesting the power. There going to fail eventually and that incurs potential perils on rerolling to manifest.

No it's not. First of all, it's every 100 seconds (a round is ~10 seconds), and it's impossible to fail a Threshold 9 Test at the moment you can use greater powers.

Thus realistically it can only be used when the psyker is prepared which I think is fine..since it meerily garentees they go first. OR when there already in combat of which they wont go first first round where they must then use the power. Which means the psyker can still be surprised and potentially controled (or forced to use other actions).

+20 Perception is a huge benefit besides the autofirst turn (which is also obviously a ridiculously powerful benefit), and I would use it for that alone. This power was almost always active on my Psyker, except when I needed every last point for my Psi rolls, and it had absolutely no benefit, _or_ I needed to maximize my Concealment (Chameleon) or become immune to fire/heat (Endure Flames), etc...

And these aren't nearly all of the problem powers the Psyker has access to.

[Lycan 01]

Wait, time out. Fate Points can't reroll perils?

[Ranos]

Wait, time out. Fate Points can't reroll perils?

Fate points can only be used to reroll Tests (your basic "Roll under a stat to succeed"). Power rolls, phenomenas and perils are not Tests.

[profitofrage]

Precision Telekinesis:
It does not state at all as to what wieght limit it can lift,push or pull. So it was my understanding / assumption that the idea was that the tasks it was meant to be used for..such limits were negligable. I.e pulling a lever..puling a pin on a grenade.
The idea is you use the Willpower test to pull the lever..rather then a str test..or pull the pin on a grenade without the agility test.
If you lift up a gun and try and point it...its not the telekinesis hyper aiming the gun..it should be the instrament for which you hold it...i.e still requiring you to use BS to point it correctly.

Moreover because the power doesnt have a weight limit..id say it should only be used in matters requiring fine manipulation like typing on a pad. Any advanced skill cannot be substituted...you shouldnt be able to activate a bomb if you dont have demolitions..how would the psyker even know what buttons to manipulate in the first place? I.e hed need the power to manipulate it..then the demo check to do it properly.

Glimpse
a +30 bonus to any skill IS a great bonus...but it doesnt stack since ALL skill tests must range from -30 to + 30. Other things can negate that. Whats more is the psyker cant use it on advance skills..because without the skill he cannot preform the tests as per RAW. Its a powerful power...but we cant strip the psyker of all there arsenal.
Any more balancing I would place on it is perhaps a Time limit between uses. Something like glimpsing into the future being haphazard..altering the flow of time by making different actions in to short a time span can cause the person to see a mistaken time. Thus negating the test or something along those lines.

Push
Remove the +10 to the test via overbleed and you have a garenteed knock out for a human opponant...a discipline power BETTER be good enough to do that. Otherwise you have something ike a willpower 70 vs (anything with x2 STR - almost everything by that stage) 60-75 which I think is a fair fight.
Not to mention it only effects one target per round.

Seal wounds:
It doesnt stop bleeding..doesnt regenerate lost limbs..doesnt heal fatigue doesnt heal lost stat damage...cant be used to save limbs....Yea im VERY sure it doesnt come close to replacing good old Medicae. And since its threshold WAS increased I think its pretty safe as is. Its powerful but not so much as to not be worked around.

Preternatural awareness:

WAIT WHAT!...threshold 9!...ok yea thats gotta go. Id make that a threshold 20+ power then leave it as is. That way the psyker cant just have it on constantly..which is what makes the power broken.

+20 perception is a big boost yes...BUT if they cant have it on constantly this is made rather useless OR made in preperation..which I always think should be allowed. If a team is prepping for a big fight..why shouldnt they benifit in everyway they can?


If you can think of other problem powers please do tell me, The more i can put on my homebrew list the better.

[Surrealistik]

It does not state at all as to what wieght limit it can lift,push or pull. So it was my understanding / assumption that the idea was that the tasks it was meant to be used for..such limits were negligable. I.e pulling a lever..puling a pin on a grenade.
The idea is you use the Willpower test to pull the lever..rather then a str test..or pull the pin on a grenade without the agility test.
If you lift up a gun and try and point it...its not the telekinesis hyper aiming the gun..it should be the instrament for which you hold it...i.e still requiring you to use BS to point it correctly.

Moreover because the power doesnt have a weight limit..id say it should only be used in matters requiring fine manipulation like typing on a pad. Any advanced skill cannot be substituted...you shouldnt be able to activate a bomb if you dont have demolitions..how would the psyker even know what buttons to manipulate in the first place? I.e hed need the power to manipulate it..then the demo check to do it properly.

That's complete and total opinion, and again, the RAI is debatable at best. That said though, it appears obvious that the breadth of Precision Telekinesis is meant to be greater than as a simple strength or agility substitute. Aiming a weapon with PT is comparable to aiming Force Bolts with your WP.

Glimpse
a +30 bonus to any skill IS a great bonus...but it doesnt stack since ALL skill tests must range from -30 to + 30. Other things can negate that. Whats more is the psyker cant use it on advance skills..because without the skill he cannot preform the tests as per RAW. Its a powerful power...but we cant strip the psyker of all there arsenal.
Any more balancing I would place on it is perhaps a Time limit between uses. Something like glimpsing into the future being haphazard..altering the flow of time by making different actions in to short a time span can cause the person to see a mistaken time. Thus negating the test or something along those lines.

There is no such +30 limit first of all.

Second, sure, you can't use it on advanced skills you don't have, but there are precious few (if any) of these the Psyker doesn't gain access to.

Push
Remove the +10 to the test via overbleed and you have a garenteed knock out for a human opponant...a discipline power BETTER be good enough to do that. Otherwise you have something ike a willpower 70 vs (anything with x2 STR - almost everything by that stage) 60-75 which I think is a fair fight.
Not to mention it only effects one target per round.

Remove the Overbleed and you have a terrible, non-scaling power. I think the best idea is to increase the Overbleed value to 10, so it scales, but not at a ridiculous rate.

Seal wounds:
It doesnt stop bleeding..doesnt regenerate lost limbs..doesnt heal fatigue doesnt heal lost stat damage...cant be used to save limbs....Yea im VERY sure it doesnt come close to replacing good old Medicae. And since its threshold WAS increased I think its pretty safe as is. Its powerful but not so much as to not be worked around.

No, it alone doesn't _completely_ replace Medicae (not that I ever claimed that it did), but it comes very close, namely by totally outperforming the skill's main function. That said, it doesn't need to remove fatigue or stop bleeding because you have _cantrips_ that do just that far better than Medicae can ever hope to. That said, the Psyker is actually one of the best practitioners of Medicae in the first place.

Furthermore, if you're going to look to 'RAI' (or even 'rules as realistic') as a remedy, it's a two way street; RAI with Seal Wounds would do all of the above with the exception of removing fatigue.

WAIT WHAT!...threshold 9!...ok yea thats gotta go. Id make that a threshold 20+ power then leave it as is. That way the psyker cant just have it on constantly..which is what makes the power broken.

+20 perception is a big boost yes...BUT if they cant have it on constantly this is made rather useless OR made in preperation..which I always think should be allowed. If a team is prepping for a big fight..why shouldnt they benifit in everyway they can?

Still way too broken given the Overbleed effect. I actually don't find that the power is _too bad_ so long as the Overbleed effect is kept in check. I'd have each increment of Overbleed grant a +1 bonus to Initiative, or a +2/3 bonus to the Perception bonus.

[Destro_Yersul]

There is no such +30 limit first of all.

You're right. It got errata'd to be +60/-60. Used to be +30/-30 were the maximum for modifiers, though.

No, it alone doesn't _completely_ replace Medicae (not that I ever claimed that it did), but it comes very close, namely by totally outperforming the skill's main function. That said, it doesn't need to remove fatigue or stop bleeding because you have _cantrips_ that do just that far better than Medicae can ever hope to. That said, the Psyker is actually one of the best practitioners of Medicae in the first place.

Good quickfix for Seal Wounds would be to apply the same sort of penalty that heal has, so it becomes a more powerful version of that, but can't be used on the same person too often.

Thought of another fun way to whack FB with a Nerfbat while I was at work today. If it gets fired into melee, randomize the hits between the target and the target's opponent.

[profitofrage]

Precision telekenis:
Look at the name....read it...it says Precision. I.e the idea it should do MORE then telekinesis is correct...its meant to be a precise method of manipulating things.
It says so in the description of the power. If telekinises was a sledgehammer precision telekinesis is the scalpel. I.e you dont use it to aim whole guns, you dont use it to throw a detpack at an enemy. Thats what Telekinesis is for.
This is for typing on a keypad from a distance...pulling the pin of a grenade e.t.c
Its not meant to do telekinesis + more. Its meant to perform in a way Telekinesis cant.


Glimpse
Please reread Dark Heresy, the -30 / +30 skill test gap does in fact exit. Theres also a -60 / + 60 cap on combat tests. I thought this was general knowledge?

Push
I think thats probably a better way to go at it in all honesty.

You're right. It got errata'd to be +60/-60. Used to be +30/-30 were the maximum for modifiers, though.

I think youll find that is for combat..NOT skill tests.

[Destro_Yersul]

Page number, please? I've just been through the entire chapter on playing the game, and I can't seem to find the rule you're referencing. Unless you mean the difficulty modifiers? Those do indeed range from +30 to -30, but they're a seperate thing than total modifier.

[profitofrage]

page 197 of the core rulebook. check sidebar on the topic of "combining difficulties"

I have reread the entire errata...and although I swear i saw it mention the -60 + 60 for combat only, i cannot find it now.

[Destro_Yersul]

That's the one where it mentions +60 and -60. I suspect the problem here is that you have an older version of the core book.