Comparative Lethality of Systems

[Darth Stabber]

So in some systems a character can be shot 27 times and still be fighting, in others a papercut poses a serious risk to a character's continued existance. So we are talking about lethality, which systems have more/less, and the effects it has on roleplaying (in character design, character personality and encounter planning/reactions)

First off we must define lethality, and I have a hard time pinning that term down. My current definition is "the likelyhood of one die roll to end a character that is otherwise unharmed." It's not perfect, and that is something I would like help in refining. Keep in mind that instances of character death are not neccessarily good indicators.

Secondly, How do we recognize it. If the term "Rocket Tag" is applied, you can bet that the lethality is probably high. Also if initiative is one of the biggest determinants of victory, you have alot. Conversely if combat tends to last several round, or if being out numbered is of little consequence, then we can estimate that it is rather low. Realism is usually purportional to lethality (since real humans are killed by 1-2 sword blows or gunshots, and surviving the first one still means some level of incapacitation)

Thirdly we need to pin down what the lethality level of the various systems we on this board play. Examples: D&D 4e has very low lethality (exception minions) in that players can usually continue a fight for some time, and a single die roll is nearly inconsequential over the course of one fight. On the other end L5R is very lethal, a good hit from a katana is likely to incapacitate a character, whether they are dead or not, due to the influence of wound penalties.

Fourth is what effect does this have on play? If the lethality is high, we note an increased importance on avoiding combat, going first, and attacking from hiding. If lethality is low, stealth matters less since you can just take the hit, and begin fighting, Initiative matters little since again you can just suck it up, and characters are more easily goaded into a fight. How does it affect you, your character, and you groups planning.

Finally, do you prefer higher or lower lethality. Do you mind the fact that your character could easily be ganked, since the enemy is done in almost as easily? Or do you want your character to have that resiliance and lack of fear of death, to keep forging on?

[Yora]

Both 2nd and 3rd Ed. of D&D are very deadly at low levels, especially 1st and 2nd. A single hit can put most characters into the negatives, if they are unlucky. Later, lethality becomes much lower and unless the dm picks the wrong monsters by accident, you're expected to take a lot of hits without being in any danger.

[Teln]

Exalted: Surprisingly lethal. About the only thing keeping the combat system from shattering horribly is the fact that there are several ways to make yourself immune to different types of damage. A truly minmaxed character will activate all of them at once, if he can get away with it. If you squint, mana pools can be seen as a substitute for health.

As a result, the official forum is stuffed to the brim with minmaxers, and they consider lack of a "paranoia Combo" to be evidence of a secret death-wish on the part of your character. Any attempt at instituting a "gentleman's agreement" to avoid paranoia combat is greeted with scorn. Jon Chung, one of "paranoia combat"'s main proponents, makes no secret that he considers all such agreements to be inevitably doomed to failure.

Thankfully, other Exalted communities (including the one on this very board) tend to be much more reasonable.

[Kurald Galain]

Introducting... Kurald's Scale of Lethality!

(1) does the game have common one-hit-kill moves?
(2) are the monsters substantially more powerful than you are?
(3) do you have a low amount of hit points against regular attacks?
(4) does the game lack a resurrection power?

Do the math from here. YMMV as to the examples, of course; ultimately, the DM has a big influence on how lethal things are.

• Rank 4, lethal. Example: Call of Chtulhu
• Rank 3, dangerous. Example: 2E; Paranoia; Cyberpunk; Werewolf
• Rank 2, average. Example: 3E; Vampire
• Rank 1, safe. Example: 4E; Toon

Since I just made this up five minutes ago, feedback welcome.

[Gnaeus]

First off we must define lethality, and I have a hard time pinning that term down. My current definition is "the likelyhood of one die roll to end a character that is otherwise unharmed." It's not perfect, and that is something I would like help in refining. Keep in mind that instances of character death are not neccessarily good indicators.

Secondly, How do we recognize it. If the term "Rocket Tag" is applied, you can bet that the lethality is probably high. Also if initiative is one of the biggest determinants of victory, you have alot. Conversely if combat tends to last several round, or if being out numbered is of little consequence, then we can estimate that it is rather low. Realism is usually purportional to lethality (since real humans are killed by 1-2 sword blows or gunshots, and surviving the first one still means some level of incapacitation)

I would probably go with something like: The chance that important characters (PCs, major NPCs) can be killed or maimed in fights with low level peons. Most of the time, this can be directly compared to the randomness in the system. In D&D, the chance that a first level character can kill an 8th level character is essentially 0. It doesn't matter who gets the initiative or rolls a crit. In other games, it is all about the dice rolls.

It isn't really about 1 die roll. In rolemaster, for example, there is the roll to hit, then the crit chart roll. Then after that one stuns you for 5 rounds, there may be several more rolls before you get the fatality. In some modern games, being sprayed with bullets could result in a whole bunch of different rolls.

[Yora]

I've often heard that shadowrun is very deadly. As a result or gang of eight toughened mercenaries was always extremely careful to have several escape routes, sniper-support, and hidden surveilance bots just to have the infiltration specialist walk by the locked up warehouse and take a peek through the gate.

[Saph]

You should probably factor in the ease of resurrection magic, too.

D&D 3.5 (Low levels): High lethality. It's easy to get one-shotted, and you're unlikely to be coming back.

D&D 3.5 (Medium to high levels): Medium lethality. Combat against level-appropriate enemies is still just as deadly, but there are more defences and fallbacks, such as resurrection magic.

D&D 4.0: Low lethality. It's very rare for a character to die, and resurrection is cheap and easy if they do. I've yet to see a TPK.

Dark Heresy: High lethality. Gruesome critical hit tables that range from 'minor inconvenience' to 'permanently maimed' to 'instakill'. The only reason it isn't Very High lethality is Fate Points, which effectively give you a few extra lives.

Star Wars d6: High lethality. Roll a 1 on your wild dice for a Strength check when shot by a blaster, and you're probably down and dying. Heavy weapons and lightsabers are usually an instant kill.

Star Wars Saga: Medium lethality. A blaster bolt is surprisingly deadly (one Stormtrooper has about a 5% chance of one-shotting a starting character) but it's fairly difficult to actually die once you're on the ground, and you always have Destiny Points.

Mutants and Masterminds: Very low lethality. By default, the most that can be done with regular attacks is for you to be knocked out, and the book pretty much explicitly says that the heroes aren't supposed to die except in very unusual circumstances.

Old World of Darkness: High lethality. One-hit kills are practically standard. Our first Vampire game ended with the supposed leader of our coterie getting both barrels of a shotgun blast to his face while sleeping.

[The Rose Dragon]

Jon Chung, one of "paranoia combat"'s main proponents, makes no secret that he considers all such agreements to be inevitably doomed to failure.

This is... misleading. Jon Chung doesn't play Exalted using Storyteller, precisely because of how lethal the game is, and how that lethality does not fit well with the setting as written. He is not a proponent of the so-called "paranoia combat", he is just the most vocal person to bring it up. He is probably one of the people who would rather see the lethality issue fixed the most.

[Terraoblivion]

What about highly lethal games like L5R that doesn't have a resurrection power, Kurald? Actually, is there all that many non-D&D games that have any kind of resurrection powers? Not sure I can think of any, now that I think about it.

[Darth Stabber]

Both 2nd and 3rd Ed. of D&D are very deadly at low levels, especially 1st and 2nd. A single hit can put most characters into the negatives, if they are unlucky. Later, lethality becomes much lower and unless the dm picks the wrong monsters by accident, you're expected to take a lot of hits without being in any danger.

Taking hits sure, but wizard's don't hit you, they ray or touch you. Mid level D&D is lower lethality. High level D&D is just as deadly as low level, you're just playing with different toys. Read any discussion on scry&die, or similar Rocket Tag related tactics and you will see that disjuction and disintegrate are at high levels what greatswords were at low levels.

[Darth Stabber]

What about highly lethal games like L5R that doesn't have a resurrection power, Kurald? Actually, is there all that many non-D&D games that have any kind of resurrection powers? Not sure I can think of any, now that I think about it.

OWoD Nuwisha and Gurahl had them (but they both ate permanent gnosis, making it a bit too painful to do often). Demon: the Fallen, death was more of a setback than an end, unless someone had some weird power that made you deader than dead. It's really hard to permanently kill a demon.

Ironclaw I believe had one under white magic, but the difficulty was horrendous if I recall correctly.

L5R second edition had one, but it was Maho (evil magic). It also made you intelligent undead, as opposed to alive, so it probably doesn't count.

A couple of systems have some form of self ressurecting shenanigans (ie you come back to life, but lose this advantage or some similar nonsense).

There are probably more, but I can't come up with them right now.

[Kurald Galain]

What about highly lethal games like L5R that doesn't have a resurrection power, Kurald? Actually, is there all that many non-D&D games that have any kind of resurrection powers?

Let's see.

Most "gritty" or "realistic" games don't have resurrection period.

Most "fantasy" or "pulp" games have some manner of resurrection, although it's generally difficult. For example, in Mage: the Ascension you can resurrect people with sufficient dots in Life and Spirit. In a scifi game you could arguably clone someone or come up with a healing tank or regeneration module. Even in Call of Chtulhu, you could probably find some dark magic ritual that does this, although it's probably a really bad idea to try.

And some games make it really easy, such as by giving the ability for free multiple times per day to a mid-level cleric. In certain other games your character is capable of resurrecting himself (e.g. Demon: the Fallen, where you can find a new host body). Paranoia also falls in this category, because you get some free clones from Friend Computer.

[Gnoman]

D20 modern is pretty lethal at lower levels (with firearm combat, one or two hits, max). Higher levels seem to help, but a machine gun is dangerous to anybody.

[Cartigan]

D&D 4.0: Low lethality. It's very rare for a character to die, and resurrection is cheap and easy if they do. I've yet to see a TPK.

I've had 1 TPK and near TPKs in the first set of D&D Encounters.
And I have no idea where the cheap easy resurrection is.

[Tyndmyr]

D20 modern is pretty lethal at lower levels (with firearm combat, one or two hits, max). Higher levels seem to help, but a machine gun is dangerous to anybody.

Or snipers. A double-tap with a .50 is basically a SoD for anyone, even aside from the considerable hp damage.

Yeah, D20M can be rather lethal indeed.

[subject42]

Introducting... Kurald's Scale of Lethality!

(1) does the game have common one-hit-kill moves?
(2) are the monsters substantially more powerful than you are?
(3) do you have a low amount of hit points against regular attacks?
(4) does the game lack a resurrection power?
(5) Is the game "Human Occupied Landfill"?

Do the math from here. YMMV as to the examples, of course; ultimately, the DM has a big influence on how lethal things are.

• Rank 5, Human Occupied Landfill
• Rank 4, lethal. Example: Call of Chtulhu
• Rank 3, dangerous. Example: 2E; Paranoia; Cyberpunk; Werewolf
• Rank 2, average. Example: 3E; Vampire
• Rank 1, safe. Example: 4E; Toon

Since I just made this up five minutes ago, feedback welcome.

I think that small fix pretty much covers it.

[wormwood]

Let's see.
Even in Call of Chtulhu, you could probably find some dark magic ritual that does this, although it's probably a really bad idea to try.

I believe the spell is called Jar of Resurrection (or something like that) and to make it work, you first have to cremate the body. It only works on a jar full of ashes. The catch? There's a command word as part of the spell that can be spoken at any time afterward to turn the newly resurrected guy back into a big pile of dust. Naturally, there's significant sanity loss involved in reading, learning, and casting the spell. Hell, I think there's san loss involved just for knowing that someone has been resurrected through use of the spell.

[Xefas]

Free Market is an interesting case. When you die, your brain patterns are transferred into a new, perfectly identical body automatically. It takes a certain amount of time to "print" your new body from the matter printers, and your memories don't always come back completely intact.

One might say it's impossible to "truly" die. On the other hand, does your string of consciousness transfer as well? Do we have a Star Trek Teleporter Problem here? Are you really and truly dead and now this new guy hanging out with your friends is just a 100% identical clone? Does the fact that your character's entire personality and memories could have been rewritten multiple times up until this point make a difference? What if you were a Blank to begin with (a person whose original body was printed, rather than birthed, and whose brain, personality, and memories were just a random mash up of other people in the space station)?

It might have 0 lethality or it might have a ton (it's pretty damn easy to "die"), depending on your philosophy. If you believe in a "Soul", then your characters can go from completely healthy to dead instantly, and you're just "rerolling" a soulless monster-clone, a new (but identical) character every time. If you believe that the tech is powerful enough to transfer consciousness, or that consciousness is an arbitrary distinction to begin with, then I suppose you're functionally immortal.

[obliged_salmon]

Hmm...lots of examples so far, but not many have commented on how it affects gameplay.

Some that haven't been mentioned.

Serenity: high lethality. One really good shot can put almost anyone down. Gameplay notes - players tend to walk softly, not get into fights or talk their way out of them. Combat is a BIG DEAL.

In Nomine: low lethality (for angels and demons at least). Even if your body is killed, you just respawn in heaven or hell. Gameplay notes - players tend to go looking for fights (the setting is all about celestial warfare anyhow).

Burning Wheel: moderate lethality. One really good hit can put you down, but wounding to incapacitation is much more common. So is running away or surrendering. Gameplay notes - actions rely on character beliefs and skills. A good fighter will be willing to get into combat, but a scholar will shy away.

Mouse Guard: moderate lethality. You explicitly need to say "death is on the line" as a player in order to have death on the line. Gameplay notes - combat works mechanically the same way as any other significant conflict, so it's a pretty standard thing. Especially in the life of a guardmouse.

7th Sea: low lethality. Explicitly in the rules, characters can't die due to combat. Gameplay notes - combat galore! Derring-do and chandelier swinging ahoy.

[Asmayus]

Shadowrun 4th edition is pretty lethal. Combat plays out like this:

Roll to hit. You usually do, bullets being hard to dodge.

Roll to see if you punch holes in your opponent's armour. You usually do, bullets being powerful.

Roll to see how much damage these bullets do. It's usually considerable, bullets being bullets.

The trick to surviving? Win initiative, and wear plenty of armour. We've got two healers to keep the team on it's feet.

So then:

Lethality: High. Death of PC's in a single round of combat is possible. In our campagain, we've had a few close calls but no fatalities as of yet. We keep getaway transport nearby (usually several vehicles, backup is always good!)

Effect on gameplay: Positive. I say positive because the dynamics of the game have changed from DND4's happy coloured "couldn't kill myself if I tried" world (even when you fight zombie hordes) to a more serious tone where you need to think before pulling that gun.

We discovered we all like a little risk, a little danger -you know, something to make you feel like this fight matters, that succeeding here might prevent further combat down the line.

I think it's something everyone should try, at least once. Don't imagine that a high lethality translates as "PC-meatgrinder". It just means that if you don't play smart, you'll get hurt.

The reputation of games like Cuthulu and Hackmaster have a lot to answer for, I think.

[Narren]

D&D seems to become less lethal with each new edition, but I never played 1st. Has anyone on here played it? I'm curious if it follows (or started, I guess) the same pattern.

[subject42]

D&D seems to become less lethal with each new edition, but I never played 1st. Has anyone on here played it? I'm curious if it follows (or started, I guess) the same pattern.

I played first edition back in the day. Maybe it was my young age or lack of rule-mastery, but I went through Fighting Men like Johnny Cash went through Whiskey.

[Zaq]

Kobolds Ate My Baby! is exaggeratedly lethal (how many games can have you reasonably expect to roll a "Horrible Death Check" nearly every turn? Even Paranoia usually gives you a swing around the table first . . .), but it's 1) a very silly game and 2) not meant to be used as a proper campaign.

[Severus]

Rolemaster. It's critical system means that a kobold can technically oneshot anything.

body parts get blown off regularly, and death for the ill prepared is a regular occurrence.

[Kerrin]

I played first edition back in the day. Maybe it was my young age or lack of rule-mastery, but I went through Fighting Men like Johnny Cash went through Whiskey.

That is both hilarious and accurate. Thanks for the laugh and the stroll down memory lane!

The times we played Twilight 2000 campaigns were rather lethal. A rifle was easily capable of killing a character with a head shot even if they were wearing a heavy helmet, and a hit to anywhere else pretty much meant the character was at least incapacitated.

[Firechanter]

Since Shadowrun has been brought up -- that's another game with vast differences between 3rd and 4th ed.

SR3: every punk with a gun poses a threat. Usually, a Runner can easily dodge a single ranged attack per round. A second shot can usually be soaked with little or no damage. Anything beyond that will hurt, except if it's one of those pointless Light Pistols.
Also, the SR3 damage system is a "Death Spiral", meaning once you are wounded, your odds of success grow ever worse.
In practice, this means that the GM has to be _very_ careful not to play the opposition too smart. If the NPCs spread their fire evenly, not a problem. But have the NPCs focus their fire on one Runner for ONE round and the team will be one Runner down.

However, there are failsafes: you have a lot of "overflow damage", meaning while you are down and out there is usually plenty of time to rescue you. Also, you have Karma (fate points) with which you can avert the worst.

All in all, I'd rate the SR3 lethality at "Average".

SR4: one of those "Safe" systems. Armour actually converts Physical to Stun damage (not in all cases, but usually). It's kinda like a disney cartoon - "they aren't dead, they're just sleeping, honey". Even if you are wounded, the detrimental effects are way, way less pronounced - statistically, about one ninth (!) as bad as in SR3; a mere nuisance rather than a real threat.

[Cyrion]

Nobody's mentioned GURPS yet, so here's my contribution-

Moderately Lethal- The naked character is lunch meat for anything that can do damage; hit points tend to be low relative to damage and they generally don't increase significantly. This gets modified by the setting- Add armor in a medieval setting, for example, and the lethality goes down significantly because armor typically have high protective value. Bring guns into the game and lethality rises once again because of the large amounts of damage and high accuracy of the weapon. There are lots of ways to avoid taking (armor, a good dodge, a good parry, a good shield skill, etc.), but it doesn't usually take many hits that do damage to take out a character (one will frequently be enough).

[The Big Dice]

Low lethality games tend to be the ones where Initiative matters least. Because if you can take multiple hits, it doesn't really matter who goes first. Conversely, there's high lethality games. In those games, he who goes first wins.

Games like 2020 Cyberpunk and L5R are ones where going first can mean the difference between life and death. But in a game like D&D, assuming no specific fight stoppers or exotic things like SoD spells, the importance of order of actions in combat matters less.

I don't know how 4th edition GURPS is, but I realised long ago that 3rd edition isn't that lethal. Between blow through of large amounts of damage (you can't take more than your HT from impaling weapons or bullets) and the -5xHT for automatic death rule, it's much more likely a 3rd edition GURPS character will pass out before taking lethal amounts of damage.

[Erom]

FWIW I've seen DnD 4th TPK's - resurrection is easy but slow since it occurs out of combat most of the time, so an all-kill encounter takes you down regardless. That said I would still rate it as a very low lethality system.

FATE, especially the Dresden RPG, seems to me to also be pretty low lethality, though more than 4e. It's easy for a single hit to take you down, but you have Consequences you can burn, essentially converting hp damage into penalties instead, and most of the time getting Taken Out doesn't even necessarily mean death, especially if you offer a Concession before you are eliminated.

[Calimehter]

Its been a while, but I remember Mechwarrior 2 being fairly lethal, probably in the "moderate" range by this thread's standards. Most weapons in the standard equipment lists could not one-shot characters, but a substantial number of them could cripple or incapacitate you pretty quickly. Getting shot w/o armour on was *very* problematic regardless of weapon power. Healing was a fairly slow process, so you had to find downtime if people got hurt.

There were "tech"-y ways around this, especially battle armour. Using battle armour was kind of tough, though, unless everyone in the party had it too . . . things that could challenge battle armour (battlefield-caliber weapons, giant alien beasties) could utterly hash normal PCs, and things that normal PCs could survive would not even begin to challenge a battle armour pilot.

We did some Mechwarrior 3, too, but not enough for me to remember if combat was much better (or worse) - the characters ended up spending most of their time in Mech cockpits when I ran that one.