Forced movement and the Spirit Shaman

[Grogmir]

Hi All,
A little questions with regards to Forced movement / and the Spirit Shaman powers.

Recently I had a combat where the main dude Slide all the minions’ three squares as a free action on his turn.

The shaman player then tried to invoked his spirits at will (sorry don’t remember the name)

It said ‘whenever an enemy moves out of an adjacent square”

I invoked the rule regarding forced movement “Being push, pulled or slide” does not provoke OAs.

The players felt the specific overruled the general, the key point being “Whenever” implying ‘always’.

I let him roll his OA, and he missed so no harm done. Just wanted to clear it up.

Thanks in advance
Grog.

[evirus]

As a GM I would have put emphasis on the "moved" clause. Since the target didn't move (he WAS "pushed" technically) the OA wouldn't have been triggered.

Also, if by "main guy" you meant the shaman himself, then simply put you can't do OP attacks on your own turn.

[gurban]

Push, pull, slide or any forced movement does not provoke OAs. PHB 285.

[Kurald Galain]

It said ‘whenever an enemy moves out of an adjacent square”

I invoked the rule regarding forced movement “Being push, pulled or slide” does not provoke OAs.

Would that be Spirit Shield?

You are confusing two terms. An Opportunity Action is an action you can take once per turn, except on your own turn. An Opportunity Attack is an attack made as an opportunity action, that is triggered by an adjacent enemy moving voluntarily without shifting, or making a ranged or area attack.

Spirit Shield's effect is an opportunity action, not an opportunity attack. It has the trigger "an enemy leaves a square adjance to your spirit companion without shifting". That is a different trigger than opportunity attacks have. If the enemy is pushed, then he does indeed leave the square without shifting, so the spirit effect triggers.

As a GM I would have put emphasis on the "moved" clause. Since the target didn't move (he WAS "pushed" technically) the OA wouldn't have been triggered.

You are incorrect. The term you're looking for is "moves voluntarily". If a creature is pushed or slid, then it does "move", but it does not "move voluntarily".

[Grogmir]

[QUOTE=Kurald Galain;10615070]Would that be Spirit Shield?

....Spirit Shield's effect is an opportunity action, not an opportunity attack. It has the trigger "an enemy leaves a square adjance to your spirit companion without shifting". That is a different trigger than opportunity attacks have. If the enemy is pushed, then he does indeed leave the square without shifting, so the spirit effect triggers.

Interesting - you're correct on the power, and thanks for your reasoning.

I see the difference between OAs and OAs now .

This was an Opp action - not an attack - and therefore the wording regarding forced movement doesn't apply. Cheers!

[evirus]

Would that be Spirit Shield?

You are confusing two terms. An Opportunity Action is an action you can take once per turn, except on your own turn. An Opportunity Attack is an attack made as an opportunity action, that is triggered by an adjacent enemy moving voluntarily without shifting, or making a ranged or area attack.

Spirit Shield's effect is an opportunity action, not an opportunity attack. It has the trigger "an enemy leaves a square adjance to your spirit companion without shifting". That is a different trigger than opportunity attacks have. If the enemy is pushed, then he does indeed leave the square without shifting, so the spirit effect triggers.

Point taken, the power in question is an Opportunity Action and is also triggered by forced movement.

However, as an Opportunity Action, it can not be taken during the character's own turn. So, if it is the Shaman's own power that forces the enemy out of a square, the spirit can't take that Immediate Action (Opportunity Action) because it is on his own turn.

[Mando Knight]

However, as an Opportunity Action, it can not be taken during the character's own turn. So, if it is the Shaman's own power that forces the enemy out of a square, the spirit can't take that Immediate Action because it is on his own turn.

An Opportunity Action is not an Immediate Action.

[evirus]

An Opportunity Action is not an Immediate Action.

I meant you can't take Opportunity Actions on your own turn, sorry I used the wrong term.

Thanks for the catch, I edited my previous post.

[rayne_dragon]

Would that be Spirit Shield?

You are confusing two terms. An Opportunity Action is an action you can take once per turn, except on your own turn. An Opportunity Attack is an attack made as an opportunity action, that is triggered by an adjacent enemy moving voluntarily without shifting, or making a ranged or area attack.

Spirit Shield's effect is an opportunity action, not an opportunity attack. It has the trigger "an enemy leaves a square adjance to your spirit companion without shifting". That is a different trigger than opportunity attacks have. If the enemy is pushed, then he does indeed leave the square without shifting, so the spirit effect triggers.


You are incorrect. The term you're looking for is "moves voluntarily". If a creature is pushed or slid, then it does "move", but it does not "move voluntarily".

While I agree with this as RAW, I feel that the spirit companion's opportunity actions should function just like opportunity attacks and would be inclined to potentially houserule it as such (but I also think that forced movement should potentially trigger opportunity attacks). Either way, applying the ruling consistantly is important.

[tcrudisi]

Would that be Spirit Shield?

You are confusing two terms. An Opportunity Action is an action you can take once per turn, except on your own turn. An Opportunity Attack is an attack made as an opportunity action, that is triggered by an adjacent enemy moving voluntarily without shifting, or making a ranged or area attack.

Spirit Shield's effect is an opportunity action, not an opportunity attack. It has the trigger "an enemy leaves a square adjance to your spirit companion without shifting". That is a different trigger than opportunity attacks have. If the enemy is pushed, then he does indeed leave the square without shifting, so the spirit effect triggers.

May I inquire as to your source? The Rules Compendium disagrees on page 211:
No Opportunity Actions Triggered: When a target is pulled, pushed, or slid, it does not trigger opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks, that are triggered by movement.

That seems pretty specific to me.

/edit This rule has been in effect since 4e came out. In the original PHB it states on page 285:
Forced Movement. No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.

[Yakk]

The half-redundancy makes things confusing.

As far as I know, incomplete lists in 4e do not imply that things outside of the list are excluded, unless they specify that it does.

So "whenever the creature moves without shifting" is an incomplete list of exceptions to what triggers the power. The fact that it mentions shifting (which would be excluded regardless) does not magically mean that "and the exception for forced movement doesn't apply" clause is inserted. Teleportation and forced movement also have exceptions to triggering all opportunity actions, and without a specific exception to the exception, specific beats general does not apply.

A power that stated explicitly "Trigger: a creature teleports", or "Trigger: a creature adjacent to you is pushed, pulled or slid", then that would be a specific exception to the general "forced movement does not trigger opportunity actions".

[Kurald Galain]

May I inquire as to your source? The Rules Compendium disagrees on page 211:
No Opportunity Actions Triggered: When a target is pulled, pushed, or slid, it does not trigger opportunity actions, such as opportunity attacks, that are triggered by movement.

Hm, that's a good point.

I would say that the above is the general rule (that opportunity actions are triggered by movement but not forced movement), and that the specific power Spirit's Shield overrides this (that this particular opportunity action is triggered by movement but not shifting). After all, a specific rule trumps a general rule. However, this is by no means the only valid interpretation of these rules.

[Epinephrine]

I'm going to disagree with Kurald Galain here; if it said that even forced movement triggers, that would be an instance of the specific rule trumping the general. The trigger for the opportunity action involves movement, making it fall under the description provided by tcrudisi.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Some quotations from RC.

Opportunity Action Melee spirit 1

Trigger: An enemy leaves a square adjacent to your spirit companion without shifting

Trigger: Opportunity actions allow you to take an action in response to an enemy letting its guard down. The one type of opportunity action that every combatant can take is an opportunity attack. Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack.

Interesting. By comparison:

Trigger: Each immediate action—usually a power—defines its specific trigger. The one type of immediate action that every combatant can take is a readied action.

This seems to say that "Opportunity Actions" are only triggered by an "enemy letting its guard down" while Immediate Actions have specific triggers. Of course, then the canon of "Specific versus General" comes into play.

Personally, I wouldn't let the effect trigger. The Spirit Shaman Companion Powers are like Defender Powers, and so should operate like that.

[tcrudisi]

Opportunity Actions (page 196)
Trigger: Each opportunity action--usually a power--defines its trigger. The one type of opportunity action that every creature can take is an opportunity attack.

Shift (page 203): Shifting doesn't provoke opportunity actions.

Shift (page 249):
No Opportunity Actions Triggered: Unless the description of an effect says otherwise, shifting doesn't trigger opportunity actions such as opportunity attacks.

After reading all the relevant rules on the question, I would say that the answer is clearly, 100% definitely and positively, absolutely unknown. There's an argument that can be made for both answers. Personally, I agree with Oracle_Hunter and I would not allow it, but I realize that I'm standing on shaky ground and that both answers are acceptable.

It reminds me of the Winged Horde vs. Flanking argument. Winged Horde prevents the monster from being able to take Opportunity Actions; to Flank you must be able to take all your actions. Some interpret "all your actions" to mean Minor, Move, and Standard. It's a confusing situation where, until they give clarification, it's certainly up to DM discretion.

[evirus]

I think we need to take a look at all powers with the same trigger to figure out what should be happening.

All the Shaman features have the same trigger:
"An enemy leaves a sq adjacent to your companion without shifting"

They are:
Spirit Fangs
Spirit Shield
Spirit Prey
World Speaker's Command
Spirit's Wrath

The "intent" is that all these powers function the same way but with differing effects depending on your Shaman build. They are very similar to the Fighter's Combat Superiority feature.

If the intent was that forced movement trigger these powers, then what would be the use of World Speaker's Command? This power does no damage and the effect is to stop the enemy's movement and force them to use another action to continue it.

If this was triggered by forced movement, it could stop the forced movement that an ally (or the shaman) had inflicted.

Taking that in mind, I think they should only be triggered by enemy movement, not forced movement. However in either case, it would not be triggered by any forced movement effect inflicted by the shaman since OP actions/OP attacks can't be taken on your turn.

[Yakk]

If the trigger was:
Trigger: An enemy leaves a square adjacent to the spirit companion

would that magically override the "does not trigger opportunity actions" rule of forced movement, shifting and teleporting?

Before you answer, lets look at Opportunity Action:
Trigger: [...] Opportunity attacks are triggered by an enemy leaving a square adjacent to you or by an adjacent enemy making a ranged attack or an area attack.

If that was the last word, would teleport trigger an opportunity attack?

Ok, now lets add more rule text:
Trigger: Moving Provokes: If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.

So, the only reason why Opportunity Attack isn't triggered is because it specifically lists the things that don't trigger it?

...

In which case, isn't the text in forced movement/teleporting/shifting NULL TEXT, because any opportunity action that doesn't also specifically mention that they don't trigger it (when they say "leaving a square provokes") also ignore it?

If you follow me that far, why does adding "without shifting" all of a sudden imply that "teleporting and forced movement" triggers the opportunity action. There is not one iota of text that mentions overriding "teleporting and forced movement" general rules in the shaman power.

In essence, you are saying "if there is a list of exceptions, then that list is implicitly complete, and anything not in that list (even if it claims to be an exception) is implicitly included".

...

In any case, a nicer way to deal with shaman spirit companions is to change the wording.

Trigger: You can use this power whenever an ally in the location of the spirit companion would be able to use an opportunity attack.

This both gets rid of the annoying wording, and makes spirit companions useful to harass ranged attacking opponents.

[Kurald Galain]

In essence, you are saying "if there is a list of exceptions, then that list is implicitly complete, and anything not in that list (even if it claims to be an exception) is implicitly included".

In essence, I'm saying that if a power needs an explanation this long, then that power is confusing, and will in practice be ruled differently by various DMs.

[Yakk]

So any sufficiently convoluted misunderstanding of the rules implies that the rule is ambiguous?

The fact that various DMs will rule this power differently is a tautology. At least one DM will rule that up is down in my experience. Did you hear about the group that played with cumulative HP? (1d8 at level 1, +2d8 at level 2, etc)

The short description of why forced movement doesn't trigger the shaman's companion's OAs is short:

There is no specific inclusion of Teleport/Forced movement in the power's trigger. So specific beats general does not apply. Thus the rule that "teleports and forced movement does not trigger opportunity actions" applies.

[Blackfang108]

If the intent was that forced movement trigger these powers, then what would be the use of World Speaker's Command? This power does no damage and the effect is to stop the enemy's movement and force them to use another action to continue it.

If this was triggered by forced movement, it could stop the forced movement that an ally (or the shaman) had inflicted.

Taking that in mind, I think they should only be triggered by enemy movement, not forced movement.

1.) Stopping an enemy from being slid by another enemy is a perfectly valid use of the World Speaker's Command. How does it not make sense to you?
2.) The Spirit Shaman is not forced to use these powers.
3.) Think what you will, the power's wording allows for Forced movement to trigger.

[Oracle_Hunter]

In any case, a nicer way to deal with shaman spirit companions is to change the wording.

Trigger: You can use this power whenever an ally in the location of the spirit companion would be able to use an opportunity attack.

This both gets rid of the annoying wording, and makes spirit companions useful to harass ranged attacking opponents.

Well, it would be rude since "teleporting Spirit Companions" are pretty easy to do. You could turn every Shaman into an anti-Artillery weapon. Too much, says I.

Better to say

Trigger: An enemy voluntarily leaves a square adjacent to your spirit companion without shifting.

The real problem is that the text for Opportunity Action is so poorly written. If it had been simply "you may take an Opportunity Action once per enemy per turn" to show that it is supposed to be an Immediate Action that doesn't eat up your Immediate Action slot it'd be better.

[Kurald Galain]

So any sufficiently convoluted misunderstanding of the rules implies that the rule is ambiguous?

Precisely.

I've seen plenty of rules debates where both sides claim, generally with a convoluted statement hinging on narrow grammatical or legalistic interpretations, that their interpretation of a rule is the only valid one. This is the game where rolling for damage doesn't necessarily mean you're making a damage roll, after all.

[tcrudisi]

1.) Stopping an enemy from being slid by another enemy is a perfectly valid use of the World Speaker's Command. How does it not make sense to you?
2.) The Spirit Shaman is not forced to use these powers.
3.) Think what you will, the power's wording allows for Forced movement to trigger.

1.) I have always played it as "only an action that would normally incur an Opportunity Action." Why? Because it makes sense to me that the power is an Opportunity Action. Furthermore, it doesn't make the exception that teleportation or forced movement applies. This is important. Since it doesn't say that it applies, it means that the power does not give a specific exception to the Opportunity Action rules. Therefore, the Opportunity Action rules are the correct ones to use.

2.) A player is never forced to use their powers. I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

3.) I can see why people believe this statement, but I strongly disagree with it. The power's wording includes the words "Opportunity Action." Those must also be factored in or you are just selectively reading the power.

It's worth noting that Customer Service also agrees with the "teleportation and forced movement do not incur the Spirit Companion's Opportunity Attacks" line of thought. No, I don't base my decision on theirs by any means and yes, it's easy to give examples where they have been wrong in the past. (I disagree with their interpretation that Winged Horde no longer prevents flanking. Heck, I've had 3 English majors read that power and they have all told me that, as written, Winged Horde prevents flanking under the new Rules Compendium.)

[evirus]

In the original PHB it states on page 285:
Forced Movement. No Opportunity Attacks: Forced movement does not provoke opportunity attacks or other opportunity actions.

There is no specific inclusion of Teleport/Forced movement in the power's trigger. So specific beats general does not apply. Thus the rule that "teleports and forced movement does not trigger opportunity actions" applies.

Since the trigger for the Spirit power does not specifically overide the rule, the general rule applies.

Recently I had a combat where the main dude Slide all the minions’ three squares as a free action on his turn.

The shaman player then tried to invoked his spirits at will (sorry don’t remember the name)

It said ‘whenever an enemy moves out of an adjacent square”

I invoked the rule regarding forced movement “Being push, pulled or slide” does not provoke OAs.

Regardless of the wording if the "main dude" was the shaman himself, the spirit can not take Opportunity Actions on his own turn.

[Grogmir]

The 'main dude' was the main Controller enemy. He had a power that on his turn, he could slide all minions 3 squares.

Looks like I ruled incorrectly originally. But as its the last session of the campaign this week. I'll probably let it go

Thanks all for your advice on this interesting rules query.

[Blackfang108]

1.) I have always played it as "only an action that would normally incur an Opportunity Action." Why? Because it makes sense to me that the power is an Opportunity Action. Furthermore, it doesn't make the exception that teleportation or forced movement applies. This is important. Since it doesn't say that it applies, it means that the power does not give a specific exception to the Opportunity Action rules. Therefore, the Opportunity Action rules are the correct ones to use.

2.) A player is never forced to use their powers. I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

3.) I can see why people believe this statement, but I strongly disagree with it. The power's wording includes the words "Opportunity Action." Those must also be factored in or you are just selectively reading the power.

1.) Meh. Agree to disagree.

2.) because it invalidates the statement I was responding to.)

3.) Again, believe what you will, I have the English Language rules of grammar on my side. EDIT: note that I'm not saying you're playing it wrong. Houserules are certainly vaild. But this is a discussion RE: RAW, and as such...

[Mando Knight]

Furthermore, it doesn't make the exception that teleportation or forced movement applies.

Forced movement is movement. Teleportation is not.

[Kurald Galain]

Forced movement is movement. Teleportation is not.

Wait, what?

Yes, teleportation is movement; that's why it's definied in the "tactical movement" section of the PHB, and why it's an explicit movement mode in the MM. If some zone deals damage when you move into it, then it also deals damage when you teleport into it. It might not provoke and might ignore immobilization, but that doesn't mean it isn't movement.

[tcrudisi]

3.) Think what you will, the power's wording allows for Forced movement to trigger.

3.) I can see why people believe this statement, but I strongly disagree with it. The power's wording includes the words "Opportunity Action." Those must also be factored in or you are just selectively reading the power.

3.) Again, believe what you will, I have the English Language rules of grammar on my side. EDIT: note that I'm not saying you're playing it wrong. Houserules are certainly vaild. But this is a discussion RE: RAW, and as such...

If the only rule was the power, you would be correct. But there is a lot more to the rule than just that single power. Let's compare two powers.

Spirit's Fangs
When an enemy drops its guard, your spirit companion leaps on it, claws and fangs bared.
At-Will Implement, Primal, Spirit
Opportunity Action Melee spirit 1
Trigger: An enemy leaves a square adjacent to your spirit companion without shifting

Opportunity Attack
Your foe drops its guard for a moment, and you exploit the opportunity.
At-Will
Opportunity Action Melee 1
Trigger: An enemy that you can see either leaves a square adjacent to you or uses a ranged or area power while adjacent to you.

That rule for Opportunity Attack comes from RC p. 246. In fact, that's the exact Opportunity Attack power.

So, by your logic, the OA power itself specifically allows you to make it, even when enemies shift. Never mind the fact that directly below the power it says "Certain types of movement don't provoke opportunity attacks, unless an effect specifies otherwise: forced movement (page 211), shifting (page 249), and teleportation (page 213).

Spoiler

Show

Heck, I could even make an argument that the Spirit Companion doesn't say "Effect: You can use this power when an enemy leaves an adjacent square through forced movement or teleportation." After all, the rule says that unless an effect specifies otherwise, you never get an OA on forced movement, shifting, or teleportation. This is kinda silly, but hey, they are the ones that used a defined game term (effect).

[Yakk]

Ayep tcrudisi: the shaman OA powers do not trigger on shifting, teleportation or forced movement. Much like every opportunity action in the entire game, unless that opportunity action specifically says it includes those triggers. That is why the opportunity action rules explicitly say "teleportation, forced movement and shifting don't trigger opportunity actions".

There are convoluted readings of the rules that disagree, but there are convoluted readings of the rules that say whatever you want -- that is a given.