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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VII

    Okay, I just got my MMV back, and I'm having an issue - the Gadacro is a CR3 monster that requires flight in order to function, especially since they have to engage larger creatures in melee to use any of their abilities. Any suggestions?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VII

    Give them flight at 4th hit dice, limited flying ala wyrvern at level 1?

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Start it with something like the reth dekala has or tenser's floating disc, where it's more like hovering.

    Just make flight the capstone.

    Just because you generally can't get flight before 5 doesn't mean it's impossible or completely unfair. Airstep sandals make it possible at 1st level. "Extremely rare" does not automatically equal broken, and since you can pretty much guarantee that the class won't see widespread use in D&D groups everywhere, you can safely make you class into a rare treat.
    Last edited by Bloody Initiate; 2011-03-25 at 11:27 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    Give them flight at 4th hit dice, limited flying ala wyrvern at level 1?
    This. There are a LOT of ways to grant flight before 5th level without, y'know, granting flight before 5th level. I'd say that this is the best one.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VII

    From the FAQ:

    What are some good rules and rules of thumb to go by?
    Flight:
    • Shouldn't be granted before 4th level. Flight trivializes low level encounters, since very few enemies will have a way of harming a flying PC. It lets PCs hang in the air and fire ranged weapons until the enemies are dead, or escape unhindered if things go south.
    • Grant flight at 4th level if the base monster uses flight as an integral part of its nature. A wyvern, imp, giant eagle and giant wasp would be instances of monsters who just aren't the same without flight.
    • Grant flight at 5th level for creatures who get it, but don't rely on it. Cases might include some celestials and some humanoid psionic creatures.
    • For creatures who just can't deal without some means of flight before 4th level, consider a placeholder ability. The Harpy, for example, gains the ability to make augmented Jumps and Climb checks, using her wings to bear her up. The Wyvern and Imp can fly at early levels, but have to land at the end of each turn of flight.
    • Finally, we should give a nod to those creatures who levitate and lack limbs to carry them about. Beholders, brain in a jar and the like all float. To keep them from taking to the sky, consider an ability that lets them float only a certain height above the ground. At 4th-5th level they might gain an ability that frees them from this restriction.

    So give it a limited flight variant at 1st, 2nd or 3rd level, and note something like "At 5HD this creature gains flight with X maneuverability and Y speed."

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VII

    Gadacro [MMV]


    Class:
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    HD: D6

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
    Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Gadacro Body, Sneak Attack +1d6, Sudden Escape, Flight, +1 Dexterity

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Demon, Reinforcements, Cripple Senses, Swarm Tactics, +1 Constitution

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Binding Curse, Sneak Attack +2d6, +1 Dexterity, +1 Constitution[/table]

    Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Intelligence modifier) x4
    Skill Points per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier
    Class Skills: The Gadacro’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

    Proficiencies: The Gadacro is proficient with its own talon attacks; it gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

    Gadacro Body: The Gadacro loses all other racial bonuses and becomes an Outsider. It gains Outsider traits. Unlike most Outsiders, a Gadacro's darkvision functions to a range of 120 feet, and they can also see four times as well as a human does in shadowy illumination. Gadacros are small sized creatures with a base land speed of 20 feet. Gadacros possess a single talon as a primary natural attack, dealing 1d6 + strength modifier slashing damage, and threatening a critical on an 20 with a x3 multiplier (the talon's critical threat threshold to 19-20 at three hit dice, 18-20 at eight hit dice, and 17-20 at fifteen hit dice. This increase is considered part of the weapon; that is, it is applied before, and stacks with, effects such as the Improved Critical feat or the keen enhancement). Unlike most natural weapons, a Gadacro may make iterative attacks with his talon, and may also make a single move action each turn and still perform a full attack action, provided he attacks with only his talon. Gadacros begin play speaking their choice of Abyssal, Celestial, or Common, gaining bonus languages for high intelligence as normal.

    Attribute Increase: The Gadacro gains a +1 racial bonus to Dexterity at levels one and three, and a +1 racial bonus to Constitution at levels two and three for a total adjustment of +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution at level three.

    Sneak Attack (Ex): Gadacros know how to strike opponents where they're weak or helpless; at first level, they gain sneak attack +1d6, which increases to +2d6 at third level. See the rogue class feature.

    Sudden Escape (Ex): Starting at first level, when the Gadacro is damaged by a hostile creature, they may choose to vanish in a puff of foul-smelling smoke and brimstone, teleporting up to five feet per hit dice as an immediate action. Once the Gadacro reaches six hit dice, he may choose to teleport in this manner as an immediate action, rather than only when he has been damaged.

    When the Gadacro gains this ability, he must wait three rounds between uses; at six hit dice, he must only wait two rounds between uses, then only one round at twelve hit dice. The Gadacro may use his Sudden Escape every round at eighteen hit dice.

    Flight (Ex): Starting at first level, a Gadacro may fly at a speed equal to ten feet per hit die at perfect maneuverability (maximum fly speed eighty feet), but only if he both begins and ends his turn touching the ground. Starting at four hit die, the Gadacro no longer needs to begin or end his turn on the ground.

    Demon: At 2nd level, the Gadacro gains resistance to electricity and a racial bonus on saves against poison equal to his hit dice, and resistance to fire, acid and cold equal to half his hit dice, as well as DR/Lawful or Good, equal to one-half his hit dice. In addition, he gains the evil and chaotic subtypes and his attacks with natural and manufactured weapons count as chaotic and evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

    Reinforcements (Sp): A Gadacro of second level or higher may use mirror image and summon monster I once per day each as spell-like abilities (the Gadacro gains an additional use per day of this ability at five hit dice, and again every five hit dice thereafter), both cast as if by a sorcerer of its hit dice. At four hit dice, it may cast summon monster II instead of summon monster I, and the Gadacro continues to replace its summon monster ability with its next-highest iteration every two hit dice until it gains the ability to cast summon monster IX as a spell-like ability at eighteen hit dice. A Gadacro may only summon neutral evil or chaotic evil monsters with this ability.

    If a Gadacro summons other Gadacros using this ability, an additional Gadacro appears under its control above and beyond what the spell would normally summon. Gadacros appear on the summon monster IV list.

    Swarm Tactics (Ex): Gadacros of second level or higher are considered to be flanking a hostile creature as long as any other creature friendly to the Gadacro is threatening its space (this ability does not allow a Gadacro to flank with ranged attacks).

    Cripple Senses (Ex): Whenever a Gadacro of second level or higher successfully sneak attacks an enemy or confirms a critical hit against it, it may attack their eyes, tongue, or ears; the Gadacro chooses to blind, deafen, or silence their foe for a number of rounds equal to their hit dice (a successful Fortitude save against DC 10 + 1/2 the Gadacro's hit dice + his dexterity modifier negates the effect). A creature currently suffering the effects of Cripple Senses cannot be the victim of this ability again until its effects wear off.

    At four hit dice, the Gadacro chooses two of the above options and also renders the victim incapable of using their darkvision, low-light vision, or blindsense for the duration of the effect. At six hit dice, the Gadacro also eliminates their ability to use Scent. At eight hit dice, the Gadacro may also choose to eliminate their ability to use their blindsight or tremorsense. At ten hit dice, the Gadacro disables all of their victim's senses and renders them mute when they successfully use this ability.

    Binding Curse (Su): A Gadacro of third level or higher may unleash a binding curse on its victims, rendering them unable to flee from them; the Gadacro may activate this ability once per encounter as a move-equivalent action, designating a single victim within 100 feet. If their victim fails a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the Gadacro's hit dice + his charisma modifier), it becomes rooted to its square; all of its speeds reduce to zero feet for a number of rounds equal to the Gadacro's hit dice. Flying beings that fail their save against this ability plummet to the earth slowly, as though affected by feather fall. At eight hit dice, flying beings instead plummet at the full normal falling speed, even if they would normally benefit from feather fall, the slow fall ability, or other, similar protections.


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    Gadacros! They're small, they're quick, they want to eat your eyes! These little imp-like guys hold a special place in my heart, and have received a bit of a power boost here. They're an obvious Rogue or Swordsage multiclass, and get plenty of mobility to make up for that tiny hit point pool that they don't like. The key traits of the Gadacro are their sneak attack and sudden escape, which lets them take advantage of (and get into) tactical positions that other party members would need much more effort to worm their way into, though their reinforcements ability can turn the tide if the party's backed into a corner.

    Gadacros are, incidentally, native to the Abyss.


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    Saturday, March 26, 2011 [1:58 AM EST] - First draft completed.
    Saturday, March 26, 2011 - Modified the Binding Curse ability to punish flyers.[/B]
    Monday, March 28, 2011 [12:51 AM EST] - Gave Sudden Escape a scaling recharge.
    - Made Binding Curse into a move-equivalent action.
    - Rolled Scavenger's Frenzy into Gadacro Body.
    - Made the talon's critical hit threshold scale.
    - Cleaned up wording in general.
    Wednesday, March 30, 2011 - Re-scaled Talon progression
    - Cleaned up wording on the Demon ability's damage reduction.
    - Added scaling uses/day for the reinforcements ability.
    - Explicitly stated the list that Gadacros may be found on for Summon Monster.
    - Cleaned up Sudden Escape recharge.
    Last edited by Lord_Gareth; 2011-03-31 at 11:24 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VII

    Rather than post unfinished monsters, consider PMing them to yourself so you can save a hard copy of the work with bbcode intact.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    And my first draft is complete! Short and to the point, I think, though for CR 3 monsters these guys were complicated little buggers. I'm hoping to get some reviews, if I can, so I can tinker with them and then attempt to move onto something a little...bigger.
    Last edited by Lord_Gareth; 2011-03-26 at 01:23 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    And my first draft is complete! Short and to the point, I think, though for Cr3 monsters these guys were complicated little buggers. I'm hoping to get some reviews, if I can, so I can tinker with them and then attempt to move onto something a little...bigger.
    Your water demoness of secrets is calling for you eh?
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Your water demoness of secrets is calling for you eh?
    Her, Remmanons, Adarus, and Sirines.

    *Rocks the fiends, but invites the Sirine home to meet the parents*


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VII

    Gadacro:

    Overall this class looks good, most of my suggestions are for slightly empowering the little bugger or at least making him scale better. He's not starving for ability at all, I just think he might benefit from a more vertical spread.

    -That claw is pretty sweet. It feels like you could start it at 20 x2 and then give it +1 range every 2 HD or every class level after 1st. You could also make the multiplier increase by one at 2nd or 3rd level or make it +1 multiplier per 3 HD. That's more an idea than a criticism, since the weapon is pretty sweet for 1st level but also unique. NOTE: I start from the top and read my way down. I made this suggestion before I saw you allowed him iterative attacks.

    -Dex increase could be at all levels and be fine. It's not a problem as is, just looks like you were being timid.

    -Sneak attack could safely scale. +1d6 per 2 HD or per 3 HD

    -Love the Sudden Escape ability , although it's really very good... see my thoughts on Scavenger's frenzy below. The two of them together are a lot for free.

    -Reinforcements should start with more uses per day or should at least gain uses per day as he gains HD. +1 use on every odd-numbered HD, for example. I might have also made it tanar'ri only, but since this ability has a different name it's not really that big a deal to be able to summon different things. EDIT: Thinking on this it struck me as odd that you can't summon Gadacros. Perhaps add a sentence saying other Gadacros are added to your list?

    -Swarm tactics feels stunted. Sneak attack makes up for it partially, but maybe +1 attack per flanking ally? It's not a bad ability at all, especially since it's free (Not a stance), but just flanking feels like hitting a low ceiling - you could go higher. Without scaling sneak attack this doesn't scale.

    -Cripple Senses is cool

    -Binding Curse is nice, but why do them the courtesy of letting them fall slowly? At least make it scale so they fall at full speed at higher levels.

    -Scavenger's Frenzy is also very good, although other things like it feel more elegant, this serves its purpose. I think you might actually do well to take a page from Travel Devotion and let him move his speed as a swift action. This will add a cost/trade-off decision where the player has to choose whether to get in or get out fast. As it is they move action in, full attack, freely immediate action out. If this costs a swift action he has to choose whether he wants an easy way in or an easy way out and he doesn't just get to enjoy both with minimal cost.

    Another option is to move some of the abilities up in HD, since he doesn't really need pounce for at least 3 levels after he completes his Gadacro levels.
    Last edited by Bloody Initiate; 2011-03-26 at 02:24 AM. Reason: Added some balance suggestions for Sudden Escape and Scavenger's Frenzy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    We've done that. I yammer at people all the time to put that stuff in their monsters.
    Note that every single devil gains the same "devil" ability at level 2, and every single demon gains the "demon" ability at level 2.
    This in mind, should I make one final small modification to the skeroloth? Essentially, adding the yugoloth traits to level 2.
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    Default Re: Community Based Monster Classes VII

    I have to parrot BI's statement regarding the gadacro's talon attack. Having an augmented critical right out of the gate is a bit scary, in addition to constantly improving flight.

    Also, a picture would be nice for the people who don't know what the gadacro looks like, not to mention it being part of the guidelines.

    Incidentally, I do know what it looks like cause I love me some MMV.
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    Wooohooo! Done with the Breath Powers.

    Just need three more path abilities, and the capstone (or two, if I separate them based on path choice), and then I'm done!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makiru View Post
    Also, a picture would be nice for the people who don't know what the gadacro looks like, not to mention it being part of the guidelines.
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    Official MMV artwork for you. It's a little small, though...
    Last edited by Lyndworm; 2011-03-26 at 03:46 AM.
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    Behold! The reconceptualized Black Dragon!

    *Is finally done.*
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  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Black Dragon

    Spoilered for length. Ed: Accidentally posted before done. Give me some time to finish xD

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    1) Black Dragon is amphibious. Can it make melee attacks underwater without penalty? How about fire spells?

    2)
    Just as others of their kind take up arcane studies from their lairs, other drakes rely on the bare minimum of magic their heritage gives them, while focusing the full of their draconic might to improve their physical prowess.
    Just as some of their kind?

    3) War Dragon - Snkirmish damage? Also, your current option allows a black dragon to get +9d6 skirmish damage by level twenty. Not obscene, but nearly twice the Skirmishers.
    Holy X It's A Dragon - rather than charging them in the surprise round, maybe charging a flat-footed opponent? You've given initiative bonuses, might as well synergise with them, and you won't always get to surprise your enemies.
    Caustic Essence - do you really need to state it's activated as a free action? It doesn't seem to requite an action at all, alongside being used as part of an attack action. Also, you say "times per day equal to", but missed out "a number of".
    But I definitely like the choice and flexibility here. Onto...

    4) Dragon Mage - Druid or Sorcerer spell list? Sorcerer is clearly the superior.
    You allow it to gain large INT bonuses, but don't allow it to use INT as casting stat.
    Grand Dracomancy - We've got the "times per day" problem again. But I really like the flavour of this ability. Captures just how Dragons cast.
    Scale Thaumaturgy is also good - adds some flexibility to the limited spell list.

    5) Keen Senses - I'm not totally objecting to the ability to see in magical darkness, but the only monsters to have that in the MM are Devils, and that's because they were given it before the developers decided Darkvision couldn't penetrate magical darkness.

    6) Breath Power - once again, you're adding flexibility, which is good.

    7) Hide of the Skull Dragon - *ninght level*. Typo needs fixing.

    8) Dragon Mage - quoting the ability for dissection, bolded small corrections.

    The Dragon Mage can use its Scale Thaumaturgy to cast spells otherwise out of its reach. It can inscribe a seventh level spell on a scale, and has a - remove three seventh level spell slots it can use to cast this spell. In addition, the spells gained by scale thaumaturgy no longer fade when they are being cast, but can be cast up to 3 times before fading. Finally, the dragon no longer has a limitation on how many scales it can have of spell slots higher than 4, though it can still only craft three spellscales per day.
    Now, I was at first confused as to how this ability works, because I forgot that with Bardic casting you only have 6th level spells. Might be worth wording it in such a way as to remind readers of the fact that most Black Dragons cast like Bards.
    Also, "has three seventh level spells slots it can use to cast this spell" might be better phrased as "can cast this spell three times per day without using up a spell slot", as it's confusing if you've got sorcerer levels and sorcerer casting coupled with it.

    Otherwise, I commend you on making it interesting, flexible and suitably sneakily thematic.
    Last edited by Cogidubnus; 2011-03-26 at 06:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogidubnus View Post
    Black Dragon

    Spoilered for length. Ed: Accidentally posted before done. Give me some time to finish xD

    1) Black Dragon is amphibious. Can it make melee attacks underwater without penalty? How about fire spells? Clarified.

    2) Just as some of their kind? Changed.

    3) War Dragon - Snkirmish damage? Also, your current option allows a black dragon to get +9d6 skirmish damage by level twenty. Not obscene, but nearly twice the Skirmishers. The scout also gets AC bonuses to back it up, and this kinda falls into the "woop woop 30 damage" issue. I think I'll keep it for now, unless I get more opposition.
    Holy X It's A Dragon - rather than charging them in the surprise round, maybe charging a flat-footed opponent? You've given initiative bonuses, might as well synergise with them, and you won't always get to surprise your enemies. It's surprise round because it's intended to represent the dragon springing out of nowhere and plunging the enemy into chaos in the space of two seconds. The effect is also a rather brutal debuff, which is why I limited its use like that. I did clarify that one flat footed enemies take the penalties, to avoid the silliness of someone who totally saw it coming and actually acted in the surprise round before the dragon still taking the penalties.
    Caustic Essence - do you really need to state it's activated as a free action? It doesn't seem to requite an action at all, alongside being used as part of an attack action. Also, you say "times per day equal to", but missed out "a number of". I thought it might be a bit too much to spam it constantly with all the other damage potential the dragon has. Changed the wording on actions.
    But I definitely like the choice and flexibility here. Onto...

    4) Dragon Mage - Druid or Sorcerer spell list? Sorcerer is clearly the superior.
    You allow it to gain large INT bonuses, but don't allow it to use INT as casting stat. They get to cherry pick spells from the other list, which favors druid casting. Druid casting dragons also get bonus spells from domains. This intended to bring them closer to par.
    Grand Dracomancy - We've got the "times per day" problem again. But I really like the flavour of this ability. Captures just how Dragons cast.
    Scale Thaumaturgy is also good - adds some flexibility to the limited spell list.

    5) Keen Senses - I'm not totally objecting to the ability to see in magical darkness, but the only monsters to have that in the MM are Devils, and that's because they were given it before the developers decided Darkvision couldn't penetrate magical darkness. In this case, I think it fits the black dragon. It's a much sneakier dragon than most, and this kind of boon in vision seems just right there.

    6) Breath Power - once again, you're adding flexibility, which is good.

    7) Hide of the Skull Dragon - *ninght level*. Typo needs fixing. Fixed.

    8) Dragon Mage - quoting the ability for dissection, bolded small corrections.



    Now, I was at first confused as to how this ability works, because I forgot that with Bardic casting you only have 6th level spells. Might be worth wording it in such a way as to remind readers of the fact that most Black Dragons cast like Bards.
    Also, "has three seventh level spells slots it can use to cast this spell" might be better phrased as "can cast this spell three times per day without using up a spell slot", as it's confusing if you've got sorcerer levels and sorcerer casting coupled with it. The problem with your wording is that at level 20, it could inscribe three level 7 spells, and use each slot on a different spell, all on the same, on any combination thereof. Nevertheless, I clarified the abilities.

    Otherwise, I commend you on making it interesting, flexible and suitably sneakily thematic.
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    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2011-03-26 at 09:19 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    "You allow it to gain large INT bonuses, but don't allow it to use INT as casting stat."

    Just wondered if you had any thoughts on this, as you didn't comment on it.
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    Kinda missed it in my commentary phase.

    I was thinking of maybe later adding a Xorvintaal version, based on Int. But yeah, the option to use Draconic Path to boost int is pretty pointless right now.
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    I tend to think Int boosts should be given early or not at all. You don't gain skill points retroactively so after awhile they're just not useful. In fact I would even suggest lumping them at 1st level if you're going to grant them, because +1 int for the first four levels for a total of +4 is actually less useful than +2 int at level 1 (There's a bit of precedent in other monster classes here, so it's not unheard of). It may seem that if you give massive int bonuses early they can jump out at 3rd level and still work their way up the wizard elevator, but being 3 levels behind hurts enough to matter.

    Although if it's not a casting stat and you're not using it for anything, you can simulate a high Int with more skill points per level. If you really don't like that I suppose it doesn't matter, because bonuses to Intelligence throughout the levels aren't going to hurt anything if you don't tie them to stuff (a la Warblade), but they do add unnecessary clutter to the class table while being nigh-useless.

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    The dragon mage has int dependent features.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    The dragon mage has int dependent features.
    Why not make the ability increases dependent on the path then?

    -I'm reading through it, and you aren't using Int that much.

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    Some of the ability increases actually are dependent on path. Every time your Draconic Path advances, you get a +1 to either Str, Int or Cha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloody Initiate View Post
    -That claw is pretty sweet. It feels like you could start it at 20 x2 and then give it +1 range every 2 HD or every class level after 1st. You could also make the multiplier increase by one at 2nd or 3rd level or make it +1 multiplier per 3 HD. That's more an idea than a criticism, since the weapon is pretty sweet for 1st level but also unique. NOTE: I start from the top and read my way down. I made this suggestion before I saw you allowed him iterative attacks.
    It's definitely an upgrade on a shortsword, but I frankly feel the talon is fine as-is; I mean, the little guy has no reach, a size penalty on most combat manuevers with it, and he's going to run into difficulty enchanting it.

    -Dex increase could be at all levels and be fine. It's not a problem as is, just looks like you were being timid.
    Odd-numbered ability increase totals are sloppy, which is why I went with +2.

    -Sneak attack could safely scale. +1d6 per 2 HD or per 3 HD
    It'd be pretty awkward if he multiclassed Rogue or another SA class. Sneak Attack is the Gadacro's main damage for those three levels, true, but after that a PC class takes up the work.

    -Reinforcements should start with more uses per day or should at least gain uses per day as he gains HD. +1 use on every odd-numbered HD, for example. I might have also made it tanar'ri only, but since this ability has a different name it's not really that big a deal to be able to summon different things. EDIT: Thinking on this it struck me as odd that you can't summon Gadacros. Perhaps add a sentence saying other Gadacros are added to your list?
    Gadacros are on the list for summon monster IV, and a Gadacro summoning more of its kind gets a bonus one.

    -Swarm tactics feels stunted. Sneak attack makes up for it partially, but maybe +1 attack per flanking ally? It's not a bad ability at all, especially since it's free (Not a stance), but just flanking feels like hitting a low ceiling - you could go higher. Without scaling sneak attack this doesn't scale.
    On the other hand, with additional Sneak Attack progression from Rogue or Spellthief levels, Swarm Tactics becomes much better, especially if you can get a partner like another Gadacro or a Nightsong Infiltrator.

    -Binding Curse is nice, but why do them the courtesy of letting them fall slowly? At least make it scale so they fall at full speed at higher levels.
    It shall be done.

    -Scavenger's Frenzy is also very good, although other things like it feel more elegant, this serves its purpose. I think you might actually do well to take a page from Travel Devotion and let him move his speed as a swift action. This will add a cost/trade-off decision where the player has to choose whether to get in or get out fast. As it is they move action in, full attack, freely immediate action out. If this costs a swift action he has to choose whether he wants an easy way in or an easy way out and he doesn't just get to enjoy both with minimal cost.
    Most melee classes need some kind of pounce, and rogues especially are in desperate need of it. It's true that they can port out immediately, but even at level 20 they're only poofing a hundred feet, which isn't enough space for the Gadacro to feel safe from other flying monsters, uberchargers, archers, wizards, et cetera. It's more useful to set up flanks and tactical positioning than anything.

    Thanks for the review! I'll make a few changes, and I hope to see a few more reviews to fine-tune the little buggers.
    Last edited by Lord_Gareth; 2011-03-26 at 11:03 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    It's definitely an upgrade on a shortsword, but I frankly feel the talon is fine as-is; I mean, the little guy has no reach, a size penalty on most combat manuevers with it, and he's going to run into difficulty enchanting it.
    Since Combat Maneuvers mostly suck anyway and are never the business of rogues, that strikes me as irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Odd-numbered ability increase totals are sloppy, which is why I went with +2.
    How is a total of +3 more sloppy than +1 at a time? Especially since your next level is 4, and having odd-numbered scores makes the 4 HD increases less awkward.

    It's not important, and it's fine with the +2, I just didn't see +3 as more sloppy than +1 at a time and the MMV guy has higher dex than con.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    It'd be pretty awkward if he multiclassed Rogue or another SA class. Sneak Attack is the Gadacro's main damage for those three levels, true, but after that a PC class takes up the work.
    Except multiclassing into rogue for sneak attack sucks as badly as being a rogue in the first place. If I were playing the Gadacro I'd be hitting Swordsage or another Martial Adept next, or perhaps my beloved Duskblade. If he wants to focus on sneak attack, it'll cost him as much as he gains, but at least that will be a choice he can make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Gadacros are on the list for summon monster IV, and a Gadacro summoning more of its kind gets a bonus one.
    Sweet, didn't know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Most melee classes need some kind of pounce, and rogues especially are in desperate need of it. It's true that they can port out immediately, but even at level 20 they're only poofing a hundred feet, which isn't enough space for the Gadacro to feel safe from other flying monsters, uberchargers, archers, wizards, et cetera. It's more useful to set up flanks and tactical positioning than anything.
    I know they need pounce, I'm saying this is a free in-out that is a little too easy. There's nothing tactical about "easy". If your class is designed to be punishing in teamwork melee without ever having to sit for more than one melee attack (Which won't carry additional problems like grapple because you teleport), you have an attack routine that will get you pretty far without ever requiring a lot of thought or effort from the player. It's autopilot.
    Last edited by Bloody Initiate; 2011-03-26 at 11:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloody Initiate View Post
    Since Combat Maneuvers mostly suck anyway and are never the business of rogues, that strikes me as irrelevant.
    It's still relevant, though.

    How is a total of +3 more sloppy than +1 at a time? Especially since your next level is 4, and having odd-numbered scores makes the 4 HD increases less awkward.

    It's not important, and it's fine with the +2, I just didn't see +3 as more sloppy than +1 at a time and the MMV guy has higher dex than con.
    It has to do with how the numbers flip down onto a build. Odd-numbered ability score bonuses have long been avoided in D20 systems (with the noted exception of Modern) and I'm not about to break the trend.

    Except multiclassing into rogue for sneak attack sucks as badly as being a rogue in the first place. If I were playing the Gadacro I'd be hitting Swordsage or another Martial Adept next, or perhaps my beloved Duskblade. If he wants to focus on sneak attack, it'll cost him as much as he gains, but at least that will be a choice he can make.
    Rogue's T4 status isn't the issue, though - it's perceived balance and class definition. No DM is going to allow Gadacro if they get [Whatever They Take] + Sneak Attack, aye?

    I know they need pounce, I'm saying this is a free in-out that is a little too easy. There's nothing tactical about "easy". If your class is designed to be punishing in teamwork melee without ever having to sit for more than one melee attack (Which won't carry additional problems like grapple because you teleport), you have an attack routine that will get you pretty far without ever requiring a lot of thought or effort from the player. It's autopilot.
    They can only poof the once; after that, they're vulnerable until their next turn rolls around. They still have to figure out not only where they're going, but whether or not this particular opponent is worth blowing their wad to get away from.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Besides, rogue isn't even a bad class. It's high tier 4, and while Factotum and Beguiler overshadow it, it's still a class capable of keeping up with what we try to balance for here. It could be stronger, but its still very workable, and doesn't require the DM making sure it's not obsoleted in the game. It also functions without much optimization, since a rogue can gain a lot of benefit just from clever use of skills, which hardly requires char-op.
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    Black Dragon:
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    - 1.5 Str damage not 1,5. I've seen this come up a lot, is this a nationality thing?

    -His wings are "too weak to do anything for now?" Why not read through the Dragon Wings feat and give similar bonuses?

    -Attribute Bonuses: +5 Strength and +5 Int by level 20? Why give them the bonuses at all if they're that low? Also Black Dragons tend to get more +Con than +Int, and you don't give them any even after they get draconic paths.

    -Draconic paths once again give you the option of grabbing more Int, while having little to do with it. Further, they give no similar option for Con. The d12 is cool for getting hit points, but I'm left wondering why you're offering an Int bonus with next-to-no int-related abilities while you're making the guy huge size with no chance of withstanding the attention a huge opponent might get.

    -War Dragon
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    -Second paragraph of War Dragon path has him gaining "snkirmish" damage.

    -Instead of saying "he gains X at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17" why not just say "He gains a fighter bonus feat and +1 initiative every time he gains a Draconic Path power" etcetera etcetera. These things are 20 levels long, they need to be as easy on the eyes and as smooth to read as possible.

    -Dragon Camouflage is cool (Huge Dragon hiding in a room that's barely big enough to contain it is funny), although giving them Darkstalker for free feels silly somehow. Remember the guy has some feats of his own to invest.

    -Holy &%"# It's a dragon! may have seemed like a good name at the time, I'm inclined to think you would've been fine calling it Frightful Presence with some bonus damage.

    -Caustic Essence... sucks. You give him massive hide bonuses at level 1, frightful presence plus bonus damage at level 5, and then out of nowhere... 1d6? 6/day breath weapon damage on a melee attack is neat I suppose...

    -Hidden Dragon should have come at 9.

    -Scaring people immune to fear is cool. Scaring things incapable of fear is weird. It's level 17, so I suppose it should be goofy, but "goofy" is definitely the adjective that came to mind


    -Dragon Mage
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    -What is "cast spells as a sorcerer with the spellcasting progression of a bard" when you list a different spellcasting progression on the table after? I know some people have a hard time understanding the virtual casting, but you've added to rather than alleviated this problem. Why not make a spellcasting table of your own that reflects when you get spells?

    -Breath Channeling: What the heck is a fundamentatum?

    -Breath Channeling: What kind of spells can be channeled? What happens when you channel resist acid onto people? What happens with the material components and such? I know it's a headache to explain all this, but if you don't it doesn't work. I know what you've written makes sense in your head, but it has to make sense to someone other than you.


    -Poor guy's senses don't scale

    -Breath Powers look fun

    -20th level War Dragon capstone could read better.

    -Did I really just spend the last 8 levels of a 20-level dragon class just gaining more natural attacks? I feel like those attacks should have been granted when the dragon grew to larger sizes.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    It's still relevant, though.
    No it's not, that was my point.

    What does the Gadacro care if he can't bull rush people? What does he care if they bull rush him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    It has to do with how the numbers flip down onto a build. Odd-numbered ability score bonuses have long been avoided in D20 systems (with the noted exception of Modern) and I'm not about to break the trend.
    I know how it's supposed to work, and the even-numbered thing is something this project obviously ignores.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    They can only poof the once; after that, they're vulnerable until their next turn rolls around. They still have to figure out not only where they're going, but whether or not this particular opponent is worth blowing their wad to get away from.
    They only need to poof once, and the poofing isn't the issue. I LIKE the poofing. I just don't like that that it's designed specifically to give them an autopilot attack routine.

    Let's go through this:

    You move action in and full attack a likely-flatfooted target (You probably won initiative because that's your job as a PC who relies on sneak attack damage).

    Target doesn't like this, goes to full attack you. You immediate action to a safe distance, and now he's stuck in place.

    Option 1: Even if the GM is nice to him and lets him treat that first attack as a standard action, he can still only move to you. Furthermore you've probably got a partner you flank with, who can AoO this slob as he runs to you.

    Option 1: He chooses to focus on your partner, who you merrily left there, and you're free to begin your routine anew next turn without any requirement.

    Fact: Even if you don't have a partner, you're still fine.

    You full attack him again. If he chose option 1 he'll be able to catch up with you next round. If he chose option 2 we go back to the top.

    Now this is a very good attack routine. Multiple opponents don't matter and ranged opponents don't matter because they're going to be just as much of a problem either way. So while they give you a hard time, they were going to anyway, and therefore don't work as an argument. Actually due to the awesomeness of sudden escape, you actually have less of a problem with multiple opponents than every other melee class.

    You don't have to think or try even a little. The only question you ever have to answer is "Am I going to use an awesome standard-action strike or just my full attack?"

    I haven't even mentioned that eventually you stand a good chance of blinding the poor slobs you attack. They get destroyed if they get blinded by the way, it's one of the worst status conditions you can suffer. Even without sneak attack I had a group that made a habit of blinding our opponents, it allowed us to steamroll a lot of higher level encounters with a seriously sub-optimal party.

    It could be argued that your Gadacro is the way melee classes should have worked from the start, because an in-out full attack routine that forces people to save versus crippling status conditions would have kept them competitive. I think it's an awesome attack routine, but since not even the monsters were given the courtesy of this kind of routine, it seems a little too awesome to have it from level 3 up. Making it a move action to get in is actually way BETTER than making it a swift action, which shows me it was precisely tailored to create the effect I'm describing. Since you can't even get a meaningful full attack for awhile, maybe delay it a little?


    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    Besides, rogue isn't even a bad class. It's high tier 4, and while Factotum and Beguiler overshadow it, it's still a class capable of keeping up with what we try to balance for here. It could be stronger, but its still very workable, and doesn't require the DM making sure it's not obsoleted in the game. It also functions without much optimization, since a rogue can gain a lot of benefit just from clever use of skills, which hardly requires char-op.
    I'm pretty sure a big part of its T4 status is UMD rather than sneak attack. It's not a horrible class, it's just not where I'd go after 3 levels of Gadacro.
    Last edited by Bloody Initiate; 2011-03-26 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Added response to Lord Gareth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloody Initiate View Post
    Black Dragon:
    - 1.5 Str damage not 1,5. I've seen this come up a lot, is this a nationality thing? Apparently, it is. Here in finland, we use the "," for decimal numbers.

    -His wings are "too weak to do anything for now?" Why not read through the Dragon Wings feat and give similar bonuses? Gave the ability to glide with the wings.

    -Attribute Bonuses: +5 Strength and +5 Int by level 20? Why give them the bonuses at all if they're that low? Also Black Dragons tend to get more +Con than +Int, and you don't give them any even after they get draconic paths. Made the bonuses depend on path completely, and gave Con.

    -Draconic paths once again give you the option of grabbing more Int, while having little to do with it. Further, they give no similar option for Con. The d12 is cool for getting hit points, but I'm left wondering why you're offering an Int bonus with next-to-no int-related abilities while you're making the guy huge size with no chance of withstanding the attention a huge opponent might get. See above.

    -War Dragon
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    -Second paragraph of War Dragon path has him gaining "snkirmish" damage.Apparently, I missed one instance of that typo. It must have originated when I edited references to Sneak Attack to Skirmish.

    -Instead of saying "he gains X at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17" why not just say "He gains a fighter bonus feat and +1 initiative every time he gains a Draconic Path power" etcetera etcetera. These things are 20 levels long, they need to be as easy on the eyes and as smooth to read as possible. Done.

    -Dragon Camouflage is cool (Huge Dragon hiding in a room that's barely big enough to contain it is funny), although giving them Darkstalker for free feels silly somehow. Remember the guy has some feats of his own to invest. Dropped the feat. And I personally like the image the ability conveys.

    -Holy &%"# It's a dragon! may have seemed like a good name at the time, I'm inclined to think you would've been fine calling it Frightful Presence with some bonus damage. It did not seem like a good name at the time. As noted in the comments, it's a placeholder name. I'm not calling it Frightful Presence because it isn't that.

    -Caustic Essence... sucks. You give him massive hide bonuses at level 1, frightful presence plus bonus damage at level 5, and then out of nowhere... 1d6? 6/day breath weapon damage on a melee attack is neat I suppose... I was kinda worried about that. I have added more damage, and granted a +2 to the save DC of the breath weapon and breath powers at the same level.

    -Hidden Dragon should have come at 9. See above.

    -Scaring people immune to fear is cool. Scaring things incapable of fear is weird. It's level 17, so I suppose it should be goofy, but "goofy" is definitely the adjective that came to mind Yeah, in hindsight, that was not the smartest of moves. Removed the scaring mindless creatures thing.


    -Dragon Mage
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    -What is "cast spells as a sorcerer with the spellcasting progression of a bard" when you list a different spellcasting progression on the table after? I know some people have a hard time understanding the virtual casting, but you've added to rather than alleviated this problem. Why not make a spellcasting table of your own that reflects when you get spells? It actually gains the full bard casting progression. Which really underlines how damn confusing it was. The table actually signifies how many sorcerer levels you get to "skip" when multiclassing to sorcerer. It's copypasta from Oslecamo, who devised the mechanic of gaining only the "new" slots gained from leveling from caster class level 4 to caster class level 5 for example. It's used to facilitate caster multiclassing not sucking.

    -Breath Channeling: What the heck is a fundamentatum? It's the elemental organ thingy dragons have that facilitates their breath weapon. Dragon biology from Draconomicon.

    -Breath Channeling: What kind of spells can be channeled? What happens when you channel resist acid onto people? What happens with the material components and such? I know it's a headache to explain all this, but if you don't it doesn't work. I know what you've written makes sense in your head, but it has to make sense to someone other than you. Clarified. The spell is cast normally in all ways except that ones detailed, and the breath weapon's effects are treated as taking place first, for when it matters.


    -Poor guy's senses don't scale Blindsense scales now.

    -Breath Powers look fun

    -20th level War Dragon capstone could read better. Not sure how to clarify the wording.

    -Did I really just spend the last 8 levels of a 20-level dragon class just gaining more natural attacks? I feel like those attacks should have been granted when the dragon grew to larger sizes. No. You were also gaining stat bonuses, SLA:s, Breath Powers and Path abilities. Also, a capstone. I grant them like that so as not to overtake the iterative attacks of other warrior classes.
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