Pondering Illusions...

[Chuckthedwarf]

This is primarily concerned with D&D 3.5; although any other system that uses similar rules for illusions will fit in just fine.

I'm wondering how ya'll DMs - and regular players- treat illusions in your games.

Consider this situation - a group of intelligent creatures, either players or NPCs, come across an illusion. It could be a monster, a terrain feature, or whatever created by one of the many illusion-oriented spells, preferably something higher level like Major Image.
They all "interact" with it - and only one of them makes the save and disbelieves it.
What happens next?

From purely metagaming point of view, the disbeliever tells the party "hey, that stuff isn't real" and everyone just manages to ignore it or make another save to disbelieve. A lot of metagaming tends to go on in my games, and it's annoying.

But consider this - in a group of 4-5 people, who exist in a world where monsters, magic and similar effects are known to exist, and as adventurers they have seen their share of them, when they all see a minotaur charging at them and one says "hey, stop fighting it, it's not real" wouldn't it be more sense to think that this one person is actually under some magical effect?

Especially when the group's magic specialists didn't make the save. In this case, I think, the more likely outcome would involve those who didn't make the save thinking that the one who did is, in fact, either under effect of something or simply insane. Because if you don't pass the save of an illusion effect, it -is- real for you. Not in sense of actually having permanent physical effect on you (although in some cases it might) but in sense of perception. The same way you don't doubt the chair or bed you're probably sitting on right now, someone under the effect of illusion spell would think that whatever is happening is completely real.

And I don't think that a lot of people, when seeing a minotaur/car/whatever charging at them with little intent of stopping would actually listen to one guy saying that it's not real...

So, in short. How do you treat a situation like this? A group of intelligent creatures come under effect of an illusion spell, one or two makes the save, the overwhelming majority doesn't.

[Yukitsu]

You don't get a save until it hits, so that's not a problem on the "charging car" problem.

As for the others, I'm very fond of shadow illusions, and invisible conjurations. When you blend them all together, the one guy can say "It's actually an illusion", who then gets hit by it anyway can make the entire party fairly paranoid about illusions actually being illusory.

[Chuckthedwarf]

You don't get a save until it hits, so that's not a problem on the "charging car" problem.

As for the others, I'm very fond of shadow illusions, and invisible conjurations. When you blend them all together, the one guy can say "It's actually an illusion", who then gets hit by it anyway can make the entire party fairly paranoid about illusions actually being illusory.

Yeah, perhaps I should have said it better.
When I was talking about a charging minotaur/orc/car whatever, I meant it more in the way of "Something big and menacing just charged through you, and hit someone. Some of you may have made attacks of opportunity/regular attacks or otherwise interacted with said menacing thing."

[erikun]

Well, the first concern would be if they interact with it to begin with. Random walls and bushes aren't likely to be throughly checked by most passing monsters, unless they have some reason to believe the party is there - noice, scent, a sudden dead end. Guards patrolling a city building would note that the unusually large and obscuring bushes weren't there last patrol, but orcs standing watch over a temporary camp likely aren't going to break their position to check on a tree that they weren't sure they saw last time.

As for if one discovers the illusion? Well, making it blatantly obvious is an automatic save, so it depends on how easily the creatures can make it blatantly obvious. A troll or ogre would likely just walk through the illusion, ruining it against the others. Something more like a kobold would rather hang back and yell that it's fake, and so wouldn't render it useless quite as easily. They might find some other way to make it "obvious" - such as firing poisonous darts at the target - but how successful that turns out depends on how smart the kobold's allies are and how convincing the display is.

As for shadow illusions, unless the one who saved is familiar with them, there probably wouldn't even be an alarm. After all, if someone came across an ogre dressed up as a hill giant, will they suddenly tell their allies this information? It hardly seems relevant, unless the character recognizes the significance of a shadow casting.

Of course, this tends to assume that groups of creatures are working together. If the wizard suspects the rogue of planning an assassination and the rogue passes through the "illusionary" ogre, then the wizard might take the time to waste resources to verify the claim - or even just abandon the party altogether. Although that would be unlikely unless that party had been under strain for awhile.

[Tekren]

Personal thoughts from pathfinder...

The spell 'Create Pit' is eponymous. An illusion replicating the effect of Create pit is great because no one wants to interact with the pit, so they don't get saving throws. Or when you say "Wall of Stone!" as you make an illusionary wall.

It can get better. First, Create Pit. Then, the caster creates a minor image of the same thing next to it... Sneaky until someone steps on the illusionary pit, and finds it is a floor. Still, that acts as handy battlefield control.

What if you reversed the order? A disbelieved illusionary pit would surely lead to comedy gold when the enemy tries disbelieving the real one.

Or, (best yet) you create an illusion of a stretch of floor AND a pit, then make a pit 'underneath' the illusionary floor.

In these cases, the best part of the illusion is that the enemy doesn't want to interact with it, thus negating their ability to receive saving throws. Illusions are at their best when they don't allow saves. Once the enemy interacts with the illusion, all bets are off.

[ericgrau]

If someone points out the illusion is fake all it does is give you another save with a bonus. +4 I think, maybe +2. It's in the magic rules.

[Gamer Girl]

The basic idea, that smart folks can see through simple illusions, is just fine. That is why they are simple illusions.

Take real illusions. You watch a guy on stage pull a card, coin or rabbit from nowhere, and even although you know it's a trick, most people are just amazed. Most people are just fine to sit back and believe the illusion. Though magicians and smart people, can't do that. If you know stage magic and how it's done, it's not as much fun to watch. And, you can in fact, see them do the trick, as you know what to look for(you see him pull the card out of his sleeve).

The basic rule of illusions(as well as tricks, cons and scams) is that the 'less intelligent' people are easy to fool. It happens every day.

The same is true for magical illusions. If you make a weak illusion, one that is low level or only used a couple spell points, it won't fool everyone. That is why more powerful illusions exist.

So you want to use illusions on the dumb folks. If you fighting a group of Int/Wis 18 foes, don't bother with illusions. Save your illusions for the group of barbarians.

[The Glyphstone]

The basic idea, that smart folks can see through simple illusions, is just fine. That is why they are simple illusions.

Take real illusions. You watch a guy on stage pull a card, coin or rabbit from nowhere, and even although you know it's a trick, most people are just amazed. Most people are just fine to sit back and believe the illusion. Though magicians and smart people, can't do that. If you know stage magic and how it's done, it's not as much fun to watch. And, you can in fact, see them do the trick, as you know what to look for(you see him pull the card out of his sleeve).

The basic rule of illusions(as well as tricks, cons and scams) is that the 'less intelligent' people are easy to fool. It happens every day.

The same is true for magical illusions. If you make a weak illusion, one that is low level or only used a couple spell points, it won't fool everyone. That is why more powerful illusions exist.

So you want to use illusions on the dumb folks. If you fighting a group of Int/Wis 18 foes, don't bother with illusions. Save your illusions for the group of barbarians.

That's not really the problem...the issue is when you've got a group where half is Int Wis/18, and half is dumb. The OP's problem is situations where the wizard makes his save and tells the barbarian it's fake, so the barbarian ignores it despite having a horrible Will save. Or worse, when the Barbarian rolls really good and disbelieves, while the Wizard bombs his save, and the same thing happens.

[Gamer Girl]

That's not really the problem...the issue is when you've got a group where half is Int Wis/18, and half is dumb. The OP's problem is situations where the wizard makes his save and tells the barbarian it's fake, so the barbarian ignores it despite having a horrible Will save. Or worse, when the Barbarian rolls really good and disbelieves, while the Wizard bombs his save, and the same thing happens.

It's close enough. If you should think that a member of a group might see through a simple, low level illusion. Again, that is not what illusions are for. Illusions are for the weak minded folks.

Some tricks:

1.Separate the smart folks from the dumb folks anyway you can, and then use the illusions on the now isolated dumb folks. You can even just take away the smart folks ability to speak, with silence or sleep, for example.

2.Use a mix of real and illusions. Some fires are real, some are illusions. It's even better if you can switch them.

3.Give them what they expect. People will often believe what they want to believe.

4.If you do want to use illusions vs smart folks, then you need to buff yourself and your illusions and debulff the smart folks. There are lots of illusionist feats/psc for just this reason.

5.The Out Of Game part. You should not allow players to tell each others about illusions out of the game. And if they do, you can simply ignore it.

[Cyrion]

Take real illusions. You watch a guy on stage pull a card, coin or rabbit from nowhere, and even although you know it's a trick, most people are just amazed. Most people are just fine to sit back and believe the illusion. Though magicians and smart people, can't do that. If you know stage magic and how it's done, it's not as much fun to watch. And, you can in fact, see them do the trick, as you know what to look for(you see him pull the card out of his sleeve).

As a magician, I'll argue that point. It's actually more fun to watch a good magician because you know various ways that it can be done and are in a position to truly appreciate when it's done well and you can't see how it's done.

[Gamer Girl]

As a magician, I'll argue that point. It's actually more fun to watch a good magician because you know various ways that it can be done and are in a position to truly appreciate when it's done well and you can't see how it's done.

I'm an magician myself. Mostly for kids. And I do see it a lot from the kid perspective. When you do magic for kids, they are beyond amazed(but, being kids they don't have the background/knowledge to know things yet). To me the tricks are simple..move this, do this, move this...there is no wonder. But to the kids, it's beyond amazing.

And while a magician can appreciate a good, well done trick...you would never be fooled by it, as you know how it's done.