Possible TPK

[Denihilist]

Long-time reader, first time poster here.

I need advice on a situation that came up in the game I am running. The players wanted to rescue a couple friends from the capital city jail. They contacted their long-time benefactor who got them information on the jail, what could be expected, etc.

The players decided they did not want to do a straight prison break, and decided instead to try to get their friends moved and nab them in transit to another facility buy planting the rumor that there was going to be a jailbreak. The rumor worked, because they handled it correctly (good rolls, etc.). However, they were told there would be a minimum of 20 guards, plus the guard's superiors using armored transports.

I made sure they ran into another party of rebel soldiers who were supporters of the incarcerated friends and wanted to help, and were planning to breaking the jailbirds out of the jail, the players again decided against hitting the jail, and instead told all 10 of the rebel soldiers to wait until the jailbirds were totally out of the jail and on the city streets before starting a diversionary attack on the jail.

So, the 4 PCs (10th level) attacked their armored convoy with a couple of people they identified as mages, and a giant ogre fighter in the lead, and all 20 guards on horseback. Mind, they did not do any recon on the convoy before attacking, they did not use the thieves guild for information, despite the fact that I told them the option is available, they did not use their pirate connections, they did not call the two people they know are seers, and they did not hire the mercenary band that works in the same city whom they have used to great effect before.

We ended last session with 12 prison guards, their two commanders, a mage that was hiding in the armored trucks, and the two rogues that had disguised themselves as mages out in the open all alive and relatively unharmed, the ogre prison guard badly hurt, but standing.

The PCs are in a bad way. Their ranger who went toe-to-toe with the ogre is -2 HP bleeding out on the ground from massive contusions and damage from the ogre's greatclub, The Knight of the group is drooling on himself after falling victim to a feeble-mind spell. The Mage is currently in a straight up sword battle with two rogues who have flanking on him, and the party monk is the only one relatively unharmed...

The city guards do intend to capture the party, but if they keep fighting, it is a possibility of a TPK. I do have some options, but I feel like they are cop-outs that would save the player's from the reality of their decisions. I could make some of the guards loyal to the PC's benefactor (though that was not originally in the plan. I could have their benefactor's powerful mage step in to help (although that would reveal who their benefactor is for all to see), I could have the pirates show up, but there is only one ship in dock, and the pirates were not included in any of the planning, so I am not sure that would be valid.

What are your thoughts?

[Hatchet91]

first off the group should have been more creative when planning shennanigans like this

like maybe sneaking and disabling device on the wheels of the armored convoy?


but ideas like that aside

having a mysterios group show up and save them could make for a great series of side quests with them repaying the savior.

[Thefurmonger]

As much as it hurts as a GM to do it sometimes the PCs are really just THAT stupid.

From reading your post it sounds like they had at least 5 good options that they did not take and more or less did the old "Screw it, he wont kill us".

And again, as much as it sucks sometimes things go bad for the PCs.

This is one of those cases. My oppinion? "Let the dice fall where they may"

if the PCs see its all going pear shaped and give us? sure let them live.

But if they fight to the bitter end? Screw it.

[Firechanter]

What about those rogue soldiers that wanted to assist the PCs? Let's say they broke off their distracting attack on the prison. Or allow the party Monk to run away -- after all, running is what Monks are pretty good at -- and get them to help.

Otherwise, it should be easy enough to capture the PCs now. Have a police cleric cast Cure Minor Wounds on the ranger to stop him from bleeding out. Have the rogues sneak-attack the wizard with saps rather than shorties to knock him out. Throw a net over the Knight. If the Monk gets away, that's okay.

[Yora]

Seems like the PCs have already lost the fight and are now cornered by an enemy that completely outnumbers them. Since the guards want to take them prisoner (which opens so many possibilities to continue the campaign), the easiest way would be to have the commander tell his troops to halt and demand that the PCs surrender.
As I see it, they don't really have a choice. Accept their defeat or basically hurl themselves into the blades of the guards. Or their own, if they prefer that.
If they refuse, have the commander tell them that there's no way for them to get out of that situation and that trying to continue the fight is suicide.

If they still refuse, I'd run out of ideas. It's like saying "we rather die than get captured". And as a gm, I'd see no way out than having it the way they seem to want it. If they know a TPK is waiting for them, they are given an alternative, but refuse to take it, what else can you do?
TPKs are a problem if they happen by accident, like you severely miscalculated an encounter and before anyone realizes what's actually going on, everyone is dead without having had a chance to avoid it. But in this situation, it's not the case. If the players chose to commit suicide, that's what I would run with. Would be an inconvenience for the campaign as you'd have to make new characters and find a way to continue the campaign with those, but I think once you start allowing the players to get away with everything and ignore the consequences of a bad descision they made with full knowledge, the game breaks apart. And it's usually a huge disappointment for players as well, if they have clearly lost and the victorious enemies just turn around and leave for no reason. Or you could pull a Deus Ex Machina and suddenly some rebel group arrives and saves the day. But that also usually leaves a very bad taste and I would recommend against it.

[Erom]

I'm a big proponent of "Let TPKs happen". The game isn't a Game without the risk, it's just Improv Theater with a really weird cue set. And this is the "good" kind of TPK - the kind with forewarning and story behind it, not the "bad" kind of random death that results from a mis-balanced encounter or a string of ridiculous luck.

The players have an obvious out here (capture) and if they refuse that, and insist on fighting to the death against overwhelming odds, well, oblige them!

[byaku rai]

Knock out or almost kill anyone still standing, then take all their precious magic items and chuck them in jail. Maybe they can figure a way out. Maybe not. The way I see it, they brought this on themselves.

Alternatively, kill them for being stupid. It might seem a bit cold, but they thoroughly deserve it and it will prevent something like this from happening again. Maybe after they're all dead and crying you can pull a Deus Ex Machina and have them Raised for questioning (they sound like high-level characters, therefore important, so if you put the right spin on this it's plausible), but be sure they get the message that if they pull this crap again, you will kill them and leave them dead.

I had a similar experience once. We were playing a mid-level thief/assassin type campaign. Of course, we had two inexperienced players, a rogue-type and a blaster wizard, who didn't quite get the whole concept of "forethought and stealth." The idiots charged in through the front door. We had to stop there, but if we hadn't, they would have been thoroughly killed by the anthro-dragon fighter captain of the guard and his Duskblade lieutenant.

TL;DR sometimes the PCs just deserve to die.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm a big proponent of "Let TPKs happen". The game isn't a Game without the risk, it's just Improv Theater with a really weird cue set. And this is the "good" kind of TPK - the kind with forewarning and story behind it, not the "bad" kind of random death that results from a mis-balanced encounter or a string of ridiculous luck.

The players have an obvious out here (capture) and if they refuse that, and insist on fighting to the death against overwhelming odds, well, oblige them!

Yup. Sure, have the guards knock a coupla em out, and when it's clear they're going to win...offer surrender. If the players insist on fighting, they'll probably be beaten down, possibly with fatal results, depending on exactly what they've done to these guards/etc.

[Delwugor]

A TPK ends the campaign with these characters.
Opening up a route for retreat allows the characters to live and fight another day.
Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play.

All 3 have consequences for their failure but only one is final.

[Sipex]

I think some of you are being too harsh on the players, they messed up the actual attack but they did do some clever work on getting to the situation at first (ie: the whole rumour thing etc). As a reward for not being completely stupid I'd have the guards do their best to capture the PCs OR have the rebels show up and cause a distraction which doesn't retrieve their friend but allows them to escape.

From there, as a DM let them know that getting the PCs mid-transport was a good idea but you feel they didn't handle the actual attack too well and had x, y and z resources they missed out on using and that this plan could've worked with a bit more back work to it.

From there? Open up the campaign depending on how you go, they'll most likely look into their other stuff next time now that you've told them about what you're expecting from them.

How long have you played with these PCs? Have they been known to usually get that complex before? This could easily be a case of "We've never had a DM who required that much footwork to be done before, we thought we did enough."

[The Big Dice]

A TPK ends the campaign with these characters.
Opening up a route for retreat allows the characters to live and fight another day.
Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play.

All 3 have consequences for their failure but only one is final.

How do you make a daring escape if you never get captured?

[Sebastrd]

I say kill them. The players can't be that heavily invested in their characters to simply throw them away on a whim like this, unless they believe you don't have the testicular fortitude to go through with a TPK. In either case, killing them solves the problem.

[Yora]

The post you quoted doesn't mention anything about daring escapes?

[TroubleBrewing]

Kill 'em. Gygax didn't believe in mercy (or fairness, or encounters less than 5 levels above the party...), so why should we?

But seriously. Kill them all.

[Firechanter]

Nonsense. Gygax also believed it's fine if you die by looking into a hole with no way of finding out beforehand what is in store. "WWGD" is not how you run RPGs in the 21st century.

Also, everyone makes a mistake once in a while. If the players usually play sensible and take the necessary measures, slipping up once shouldn't necessarily result in a TPK.

[Denihilist]

Great thoughts everyone, I appreciate the well-reasoned responses.

I think I am going to give them the opportunity to choose capture, or fight to the death. If they choose to be captured (some or all of the PCs) they will find out who the other prisoner is while they are being interrogated... of course, my less than nice side really want's to kill them all, but I will refrain from that for the moment.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

[Britter]

I like your conclusion. Let them make a meaningful choice. If they opt to surrender, great! You now have a complication for them to deal with, daring escapes to plan, and lots of potential options. If they opt to fight, slaughter them without mercy. Pull no punches. Kill them extremely dead (or at least try. If they manage to pull out a miraculos win in the face of extreme adversity, thats cool too. But make them work hard for it). They will know that their actions have ramifications, and that their choices matter.

Don't go easy on them if they opt to fight though, because then they won't be as sure that they had a choice.

[Yora]

I like the basic idea of Mouse Guard: "There is no actual failure, there are just new directions the plot can take."
Though that game also assumes that the PCs almost never actually face the threat of death, but roll with me here.

[Vladislav]

Have an epic-level NPC arrive and save them in the nick of time. Make that NPC a permanent fixture of the campaign. You know you wanna. That was sarcasm.

[Thefurmonger]

I like the basic idea of Mouse Guard: "There is no actual failure, there are just new directions the plot can take."
Though that game also assumes that the PCs almost never actually face the threat of death, but roll with me here.

The only problem with this is that if you let the players be stupid/fail to plan/just wing it, and then bail them out when it goes bad. Then why in the hell would they bother to ever plan?

If there is no chance of failure then why come up anything cunning? they know the GM will just bail them out.

The players have to know that if they are morons they run the real risk of loosing. Otherwise why bother upping their saves? why get that next 2 pts of AC? If the GM is too scared to "pull the trigger" then there is no real risk.

[Britter]

For the record, Mouseguard says that failing a roll or test should lead to complications. And in the structure of the game, complications can be everything fro a total change in direction of the entire mission all the way through injuries and illness. Frankly, death would occasionally seem a welcome release to the beleaguered guard-mouse suffering from hunger and thirst, wounded after a fight with a vicious rat, tracking a stolen mail parcel across a hostile forest in the midst of a torrential downpoor. Those complications would all derieve from failed rolls. It is a pretty solid model for failure.

[The Big Dice]

The post you quoted doesn't mention anything about daring escapes?

How does "Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play" not lead you to think of ways your current character could bust out of jail. Either to clear his/her name, or to be the Most Awesome Outlaw in the region?

As for Gygax, remember this is the guy who had players with characters called Bigby. Who adventured with Sigby Griggbyson the fighter. There was also a Magic Used called Rary, who wanted to get to 3rd level so he could be Medium Rary. This is the GM that had Robillar, a fighter, solo the entire Temple of Elemental Evil. And not forgetting Gygax's own PC, Mordenkainen.

This was the man who said "A DM only rolls dice for the sound they make" and "Hello Fry, it's a ... *[stops mid-sentence, throws a D20 and a D6]* pleasure to meet you."

I owuldn't say it was all murder and mayhem with EGG. In fact, I'd say that 21st century could do with a bit of going backwards to move forwards. Return to some of the ideas espoused by Gygax, but remembering that there's been 35 years of growth and development in the hobby.

[Thefurmonger]

As for Gygax, remember this is the guy who had players with characters called Bigby. Who adventured with Sigby Griggbyson the fighter. There was also a Magic Used called Rary, who wanted to get to 3rd level so he could be Medium Rary. This is the GM that had Robillar, a fighter, solo the entire Temple of Elemental Evil. And not forgetting Gygax's own PC, Mordenkainen.

For what it's worth you just made me REALLY miss the old days.

If you will excuse me I have to go find my old red box...

[Callos_DeTerran]

For what it's worth you just made me REALLY miss the old days.

If you will excuse me I have to go find my old red box...

Play Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk. Really made me miss older game mentality.

[Delwugor]

How does "Surrender opens up all kinds of new opportunities for play" not lead you to think of ways your current character could bust out of jail. Either to clear his/her name, or to be the Most Awesome Outlaw in the region?

Give the man a cookie ... just not one of mine cause I'm hungry.

I once had a character attempt to talk her way out of a similar situation. Well she completely failed and had her throat slit for her troubles ... but it would have been awesome if she succeeded.

One time we surrendered and were dropped into the bottom of a dungeon with nothing but our clothes and "You are free to go". That lead to some great fun and making the bad guy eat his words was a very sweet reward.

In super hero games surrendering often leads to the villain's speech about his evil plans and how this contraption will kill them in the most unusual and painful manner. And of course this contraption is never enough to stop the good guys but hey why waste a good trope.

[holywhippet]

I think using deus ex machina to save the PCs is a bad idea. At best you could give them a chance to flee from the battle. But honestly, if you throw a safety net underneath them after such a massive screw up then they might come to expect safety nets in the future. Let the dice fall where they may.

[Severus]

I guess I don't know enough to really judge.

It sounds like they were foolish, but it also sounds to me like the guard on these guys was serious overkill unless they were really special criminals. I don't think I'd expect a small army for moving two prisoners.

You said the fighter got hit with a feeblemind spell. That's a serious high level caster you got there on top of other things. What was the challenge rating of this encounter?

[Witty Username]

What spells does the mage still have?

How unharmed is the monk?

level's of the guards, rouges and mage?

amount of hurt the ogre is in?

The players may surprise you, offering surrender is still a good idea at this point.

[byaku rai]

I think using deus ex machina to save the PCs is a bad idea. At best you could give them a chance to flee from the battle. But honestly, if you throw a safety net underneath them after such a massive screw up then they might come to expect safety nets in the future. Let the dice fall where they may.

... Of course, you could give them the safety net this time, then next time when they're expecting a net inform them (not when they're planning, such as it may be, but when they walk into the encounter) that there won't be such forgiveness this time, and isn't it an awful shame that they didn't plan things out more?

... That's probably just my Neutral Evil side talking, though...

[TroubleBrewing]

If you give them a safety net today, they'll be riding cannonballs into battle tomorrow. They'll become so unafraid of you as a DM that you'll be forced to run the Tomb of Horrors to rekindle that fear.

Kill them all, or suffer the consequences of a party that is literally immune to fear.