[3.5] Alternative Skill Point Systems?

[C.Penguin]

Hey Playground,

I'm in the process of developing a full campaign setting and I am changing a lot of aspects of the game, retaining the general feel of 3.5, however I am running into a lot of issues that I didn't realize I had with the system until I started building this beast. My latest quandary is that of 3.5's skill system, in particular, the fact that, IMO, a character in real life can possess all manner of skills and not be necessarily "intelligent." While I know that 3.5 isn't necessarily the most accurate of real-life simulators, I was wondering if any alternative sill point systems have come up that make a little bit more sense, or if I have just been hit on the head too many times and am not making sense at all.

One idea I had was to make two separate skill point pools, one that was used only for knowledge skills, or by extension, all int-based skills (to represent a character's reserves of information about the world) and a second pool representing everything else, possibly keyed off of wisdom (in a sort of book-smarts vs. street smarts idea). Is this a reasonable idea or am I just crazy?

[Ashtagon]

Or you could acknowledge that a character possesses skills in a great many areas and can do them in routine situations without undue difficulty. But actually using them in a crisis situation effectively - that's what the actual skill points represent.

In d20 Modern terms, a character with Drive 0 ranks may well be able to drive a car and have a licence, and gets by taking 10 most of the time. A character with 4 ranks can probably do a half-decent job as a racing car driver, although he probably won't be winning Monaco.

Same goes for the Swim skill. Swim 0 ranks is still sufficient to move around slowly and stay afloat. Climb 0 ranks will probably get you moving on the climbing wall at the gym. And so on.

[Mayhem]

Ashtagon +1

You could also give players an extra +2 skill points each level, that steps on the human's toes somewhat though so you might have to give them something more. I've seen quite a few people offer bonus skill points each level to spend only on craft, profession, and knowlege, so that might be a better solution that simply free skill points.

I do like the idea of bonus skill points to spend on any int-based skill, and a bonus pool of wis skills. Maybe it's better if you just give out bonus skill points and say "any int or wis based skills," and call it a day.

[Eldan]

One that I've seen and that is actually quite interesting:

You get skills based on each attribute modifier.

Let me explain:

Assume you have a +2 strength modifier. That gives you 2 "strength" skill points, which you can put in any strength dependent skill, let's say climb and jump.
Your dexterity modifier is +3, so you put those points in balance, escape artist and open lock.

And so on. Would probably need a bit more balancing, and will most likely result in quite a bit more skills per level, if high attribute values are common.

[Kilbourne]

Here's the system I use at my table for Pathfinder, modified from the Star Wars Legacy d20 system.

Spoiler

Show

Every class has a list of class skills. Once a player selects a class for their character, he chooses a number of trained skills from the character's list of class skills. This number is equal to the amount of skill ranks available to the character at their level first level (or the level the character is being created at). For example, a Bard would choose 6 + Intelligence modifier skills from his class skills to become trained in them.

- To put it another way, a character's trained skills represent a subset of that character's class skills. If you select a second class, you do not gain new trained skills. Instead, your list of class skills expands to include those of the new class. You may select a single class skill from your newly expanded skill list to become a trained skill. This new trained skill must be from the class skills of your new class. If you take the Skill Training feat, you may choose a new trained skill from your expanded list of class skills.

- A character also has the choice, upon creation, to spend a second point on a trained skill to gain Skill Focus in that skill.

- When a character makes a skill check with any class skill, whether or not it is trained, they gain a +3 class bonus to the check. This represents the character's basic training in their class' abilities, even if they did not specifically train in that skill.

- Making a skill check: characters can roll a skill check with any skill they desire (except for a few, mentioned below). To make a skill check with a trained skill, roll:
- 1d20 + character level + 3 class + ability + other modifiers

- If it is an untrained class skill, you only add half of your character level, rather than all of it. If it is an untrained, non-class skill, you remove the +3 class bonus as well.

- Some skills checks cannot be made if it is not a class skill. Characters may make skill checks with these skills untrained, if it is a class skill.

- These restricted skills are:
- Disable Device
- Handle Animal
- Knowledge skills (except Local, if your character is from or has adventured extensively in the area)
- Linguistics
- Spellcraft

- Taking the skill Linguistics as a trained skill grants as many bonus languages to a character equal to the value of their Intelligence modifier, if positive, and an additional language every two character levels. This is in addition to any starting languages the character may have. If they have no, or a negative, Intelligence modifier, they may choose a single language to learn in addition to their starting languages every two character levels.

- Characters may take the feat Skill Training: "Choose one untrained skill from your class skill list. You may now consider that skill a trained skill. This feat may be taken as many times as a character has untrained class skills."

[Daftendirekt]

We've actually been using a modified skill system in our 3.5 campaigns. Here is what we do:

• Got rid of class and cross-class skills. Not every fighter will have the same focus of interests, same for rogues, wizards, etc. Learn what you want to learn.
• Therefore, you can take any skill you want for just 1 skill point per rank.
• Max rank is no longer HD+3, it is now simply HD.
• Therefore, no x4 skill ranks at first level.
• Many skills have been merged. I shall start a separate list for those.
• You can make any skill check untrained. You just obviously have a very poor chance of success with no ranks.

New Skills

• Balance and Tumble have been rolled together into Acrobatics.
• Climb, Jump, and Swim have been rolled together into Athletics.
• Bluff and Disguise have been rolled together into Deception.
• Diplomacy and Intimidate have been rolled together into Persuasion.
• Open Lock was merged into Disable Device.
• Escape Artist and Use Rope have been rolled together into Durance.
• Forgery and Decipher Script have been rolled together into Scription.
• Ride was merged into Handle Animal.
• Gather Information was merged into Knowledge (local).
• Listen, Search, and Spot have been rolled together into Awareness (wisdom-based).
• Spellcraft was merged into Knowledge (arcana).
• Hide and Move Silently were rolled together into Stealth.

The DM also limited how many languages you can take; as Speak Language is a skill, knowing-every-language shenanigans could be way too easy. Also, looked at realistically, who the **** knows 8 languages?

[Frog Dragon]

Also, looked at realistically, who the **** knows 8 languages?

My mother, for one.
Or somewhere close, anyway. It's not quite as unrealistic as you think.

[Savannah]

Also, looked at realistically, who the **** knows 8 languages?

A quick google shows that the world record holder for most languages spoken speaks somewhere between 56-59, depending on who you ask. And apparently there are historical records of people speaking 70+ languages (of course, I don't know how accurate those records are). So, really, 8 languages for someone moderately interested in linguistics doesn't seem that unreasonable

I like most of the ways you've combined skills, though.

[Eldan]

I speak three or four, depending on how you count, but that's standard in Switzerland. It's just what you get in school. In German-speaking Switzerland, everyone gets Swiss German, German, French and English. From year 7 on, you have the option of also taking either Latin or Italian. In High School, you can specialize in Latin, Ancient Greek, Spanish or Italian. In University, there's also a dozen other languages.

Best person I know speaks Swiss German, German, French, English, Italian, Latin, Spanish, Japanese and Chinese. That's eight or nine, and she has been in all those countries (with the exception of Latin, of course).

[pffh]

Yeah 8 languages is impressive but not to impressive. I too "speak" 4 languages (Icelandic and English and then I can get by in Danish and German) but a friend of mine speaks a lot more.
Let see he speaks Icelandic, English, German, French, Danish, Latin, Spanish, Hungarian, Russian, Swedish and Norwegian. That's 11 languages and he's not even studying languages, he's studying medicine.

[Kumori]

One that I've seen and that is actually quite interesting:

You get skills based on each attribute modifier.

Let me explain:

Assume you have a +2 strength modifier. That gives you 2 "strength" skill points, which you can put in any strength dependent skill, let's say climb and jump.
Your dexterity modifier is +3, so you put those points in balance, escape artist and open lock.

And so on. Would probably need a bit more balancing, and will most likely result in quite a bit more skills per level, if high attribute values are common.

I was thinking this same thing initially, but then realized that everyone would always have max ranks in Concentration.... Perhaps grouping your physical and mental attributes together, giving extra skill points based off the best of the three, as opposed to all three.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Four groups? Trickery, Social skills, intellectual skills, athletic skills?

[nonsi]

We've actually been using a modified skill system in our 3.5 campaigns. Here is what we do:

• Got rid of class and cross-class skills. Not every fighter will have the same focus of interests, same for rogues, wizards, etc. Learn what you want to learn.
• Therefore, you can take any skill you want for just 1 skill point per rank.
• Max rank is no longer ECL+3, it is now simply ECL
• Therefore, no x4 skill ranks at first level.
• Many skills have been merged. I shall start a separate list for those.
• You can make any skill check untrained. You just obviously have a very poor chance of success with no ranks.

New Skills

• Balance and Tumble have been rolled together into Acrobatics.
• Climb, Jump, and Swim have been rolled together into Athletics.
• Bluff and Disguise have been rolled together into Deception.
• Diplomacy and Intimidate have been rolled together into Persuasion.
• Open Lock was merged into Disable Device.
• Escape Artist and Use Rope have been rolled together into Durance.
• Forgery and Decipher Script have been rolled together into Scription.
• Ride was merged into Handle Animal.
• Gather Information was merged into Knowledge (local).
• Listen, Search, and Spot have been rolled together into Awareness (wisdom-based).
• Spellcraft was merged into Knowledge (arcana).
• Hide and Move Silently were rolled together into Stealth.

The DM also limited how many languages you can take; as Speak Language is a skill, knowing-every-language shenanigans could be way too easy. Also, looked at realistically, who the **** knows 8 languages?

Nicely done.
That's the first skill mesh I encountered that actually makes sense

>> Max rank is no longer ECL+3, it is now simply ECL
AFAIK, it's HD+3 (LA doesn't count)

Btw, how did you balance the DCs ?

[Daftendirekt]

I'm not 100% sure how the DM does DCs now. I think they're the same; thus giving us a bit more of a challenge. I know he says "if you're untrained, the DC is higher", but honestly don't know if he actually has an established way of doing it that he just hasn't told us.

>> Max rank is no longer ECL+3, it is now simply ECL
AFAIK, it's HD+3 (LA doesn't count)

That's what I meant.