I need feedback on a set of house rules.

[Callista]

I'm going to be starting a game soon and want to set down some concrete house rules. The system is 3.5, but many of them actually apply to all systems. I'd like some feedback on the list. It looks too long to me, like maybe nobody will bother to read it. And if I've left any obvious things out or put things in that are so obvious that they don't need to be there, please do tell me. Thanks.

Character Creation:

• 4d6, drop lowest, arrange in any order. If you don’t like your scores, you may choose to use 32 point buy instead.
• All non-core class features, items, etc. must be approved. (They probably will be. I just need to see them first, especially if I don’t have that book.)
• Get me an up-to-date copy of your character sheet when you level.
• Your character must have a backstory. It can be one or two sentences or it can be a novel, but there has to be one.
• New players bring in characters at average party level.
• Backup characters are allowed. They come in at average party level minus one.
• Everybody makes their characters together; the characters must be compatible enough not to kill each other. The party cannot have both Good and Evil characters in it simultaneously (I may approve exceptions if you explain how the party can make it work).
• Choose one Profession skill. This is your character’s job before he became an adventurer. You gain four free skill points at level one to put into that skill, and one point at every level thereafter.

Rules Changes

• There is no XP penalty for multiclassing.
• The following spells do not exist (are not available to either PCs or NPCs): Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Mordenkainen's Disjunction
• We are not using massive damage rules.
• Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.
• The Monk gets full BAB; Flurry of Blows is a standard action.
• Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.
• The Fighter gets a bonus feat at every level.
• Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest).
• Any character who would lose class powers due to alignment change gains Knowledge(Religion) as a class skill. Knowledge(Religion) checks may be made to determine what your character’s belief system says about a potential decision.

Alignment System

• The following alignment restrictions have been changed:
  
  • The Bard and Assassin are no longer restricted by alignment. The Assassin's kill may be substituted with any dangerous covert mission.
  • The Monk may not be Chaotic, but can be neutral.
  • The Barbarian may not be Lawful, but can be neutral.
  • Druids are allowed to be CG and CE.
  • The CG, CE, and LE paladin variants in UA are available in addition to the LG version.
• We are using an objective alignment system with the definitions of alignment in the PHB.
• Involuntary, coerced, or unavoidable actions cannot change your PC's alignment unless you want them to. Paladins and characters with BoED feats still lose class features if the act is Evil, but in these cases, a day of meditation can duplicate an Atonement spell, or an Atonement spell can be cast without a quest or XP component.
• Changing alignments is a sign of character development, not a punishment. If you lose class features and do not want the character to return to his old alignment, you may rebuild the character in accordance with his new alignment so he stays at the same power level. I will notify you if your character has changed alignment; or you may declare your character has changed alignment (if you can explain why) at any time.
• The following are no longer intrinsically associated with alignment: Poison; the creation of unintelligent undead; and any aligned spells (these retain their descriptors, but casting a G/E/L/C spell is not automatically an aligned act). Unintelligent undead do still introduce negative energy into the Prime Material--an environmental threat that, on a large scale, can leach the life out of an area, but not automatically evil. Intelligent undead are evil by nature, and creating one is an evil act.

Rebuilding your Character

• If you want to rebuild your character, show me the changes first. I may directly ask you to rebuild your character if they are too far below the average power level of the party.
• Rebuilt characters must remain similar to what they were before the rebuild. Your newly rebuilt character's abilities should resemble the old ones enough to preserve suspension of disbelief.

Other Stuff

• Good role-play awards more XP than just killing things. Avoiding a fight or negotiating a truce awards the same amount of XP as winning it. By group consensus, we may choose to do away with XP altogether and just level up periodically (in which case item-crafters will use crafting points).
• If you are not at a game, your character fades into the background and is assumed to be there, just unusually quiet.
• If a rules loophole is discovered that allows an overpowered action, it works the first time, but it's a fluke and never happens again. If you are trying something truly broken, I reserve the right to throw my DMG at you.
• If your character dies through deliberate sacrifice (either in character, or out of character because you had him do what his personality dictated even though you knew it was dangerous), your new character comes in at average party level, or you may purchase True Resurrection for half price from a friendly church. Truly unforgettable incidents will usually have other rewards.
• If your character is in serious trouble, he may choose to pray to his deity. Whether the deity answers depends on the importance of the situation, the character's status with his deity, the nature of the request, and a factor of random chance. Depending on who the deity is, they may also make demands/requests of your character in return.
• When casting Calling, Summoning, and related spells, remember that your targets have independent lives and allies of their own. Abuse them, and they may retaliate.
• When using Wish, Limited Wish, or Miracle: These spells have limits, and may fail or misfire if pushed beyond these limits. If someone is casting the Wish or Miracle for you, their intentions and attitude can affect the outcome.
• A character at negative HP is mechanically unconscious but need not be role-played as unconscious. A character at less than -10 HP but above -50 is dying and cannot be saved by magical healing. A PC who is dying may, before he dies, briefly speak or gesture. (Yes, including flipping off whatever just killed you.) This does not allow for spellcasting, attacking, or any other strenuous action.
• Nobody goes home until everything’s clean and all borrowed property has been returned.
• Dice are read as they land. If they can’t be read or land cockeyed, re-roll.
• If you have a problem, talk about it rather than blowing up or gossiping.
• Anyone who is abusive to anyone else will be summarily kicked out of the game.

[Claudius Maximus]

These all sound perfectly reasonable to me. There are things here that I would not have done, but I would not object to even one of these rules if I came to a table running them.

As for criticism, I guess some of the "other stuff" should be obvious enough that you don't need to mention it (i.e. basic human decency). Not a big deal though.

[Cartigan]

I'd recommend using Pathfinder's modifications of Polymorph and Disjunction.

And are you keeping the normal rules for Druid Wilshape instead of either Pathfinder Polymorph school rules or PHB II Wildshape replacement?
Also, I'd look at Pathfinder for a Fighter fix rather than shoving more feats on it (or do both).

[Tyndmyr]

* 4d6, drop lowest, arrange in any order. If you don’t like your scores, you may choose to use 32 point buy instead.

Reasonable. I've used this before with success. Just be aware that you may get lucky folks with high scores. I suggest rolling scores only be done at the table.

* All non-core class features, items, etc. must be approved. (They probably will be. I just need to see them first, especially if I don’t have that book.)
* Get me an up-to-date copy of your character sheet when you level.
* Your character must have a backstory. It can be one or two sentences or it can be a novel, but there has to be one.

All reasonable.

* New players bring in characters at average party level.
* Backup characters are allowed. They come in at average party level minus one.

Eh, okish, unless you ever have the point where a player is far enough behind that he benefits from killing his current character off. I try to discourage suicide.

* Everybody makes their characters together; the characters must be compatible enough not to kill each other. The party cannot have both Good and Evil characters in it simultaneously (I may approve exceptions if you explain how the party can make it work).

Reasonable. I've seen the "two steps from lawful good" rule work well as well. CN is frequently the trouble alignment for those banned from evil.

* Choose one Profession skill. This is your character’s job before he became an adventurer. You gain four free skill points at level one to put into that skill, and one point at every level thereafter.

Profession skill points are unlikely to break anything. No worries.

Rules Changes

* There is no XP penalty for multiclassing.

Everyone should play with this rule at all times.

* The following spells do not exist (are not available to either PCs or NPCs): Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Mordenkainen's Disjunction

Reasonable.

* We are not using massive damage rules.

Massive Damage rules are terrible. They should also never be used. Good job.

* Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.

I advise against it for the same reason I advise against most "must see/experience x" rules. It has the unfortunate effect of distracting druids from whatever the main quest is, and resulting in side quests to find whatever.

* The Monk gets full BAB; Flurry of Blows is an attack action.
* Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.

Add plants.

* The Fighter gets a bonus feat at every level.

Be aware that they'll be out of decent core feats with the quickness. Otherwise, ok.

* Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest).

I presume this is for changing attitudes, as it is already opposed otherwise. I suggest making it an opposed check modified by the normal DC of the attitude modifier. Or using the giants rules. They're aright.

* Any character who would lose class powers due to alignment change gains Knowledge(Religion) as a class skill. Knowledge(Religion) checks may be made to determine what your character’s belief system says about a potential decision.

Probably a wise decision.

Alignment System

* The following alignment restrictions have been changed:
o The Bard and Assassin are no longer restricted by alignment. The Assassin's kill may be substituted with any dangerous covert mission.
o The Monk may not be Chaotic, but can be neutral.
o The Barbarian may not be Lawful, but can be neutral.
o Druids are allowed to be CG and CE.
o The CG, CE, and LE paladin variants in UA are available in addition to the LG version.
* We are using an objective alignment system with the definitions of alignment in the PHB.
* Involuntary, coerced, or unavoidable actions cannot change your PC's alignment unless you want them to. Paladins and characters with BoED feats still lose class features if the act is Evil, but in these cases, a day of meditation can duplicate an Atonement spell, or an Atonement spell can be cast without a quest or XP component.
* Changing alignments is a sign of character development, not a punishment. If you lose class features and do not want the character to return to his old alignment, you may rebuild the character in accordance with his new alignment so he stays at the same power level. I will notify you if your character has changed alignment; or you may declare your character has changed alignment (if you can explain why) at any time.

All solid.

* The following are no longer intrinsically associated with alignment: Poison; the creation of unintelligent undead; and any aligned spells (these retain their descriptors, but casting a G/E/L/C spell is not automatically an aligned act). Unintelligent undead do still introduce negative energy into the Prime Material--an environmental threat that, on a large scale, can leach the life out of an area, but not automatically evil. Intelligent undead are evil by nature, and creating one is an evil act.

Oddly enough, casting aligned spells is not automatically an aligned act by RAW. It's odd, but there you have it.

Does it count as evil if the intelligent undead is you?

* If your character dies through deliberate sacrifice (either in character, or out of character because you had him do what his personality dictated even though you knew it was dangerous), your new character comes in at average party level, or you may purchase True Resurrection for half price from a friendly church. Truly unforgettable incidents will usually have other rewards.

Drop this one. It's hard on suspension of disbelief....but I like the thought behind it. Rewarding dangerous/awesome actions is solid, and I recommend using an action/drama die like system for doing so.

Everything not specifically commented on is solid. Overall, I like them, and consider them good enough that I wouldn't mind at all playing under them. This is, sadly, significantly more positive than most feedback I give.

[Velaryon]

If I were one of your players, there are some rules I would want a more concrete definition of. For example:

When casting Calling, Summoning, and related spells, remember that your targets have independent lives and allies of their own. Abuse them, and they may retaliate.

What constitutes abuse? Also:

When using Wish, Limited Wish, or Miracle: These spells have limits, and may fail or misfire if pushed beyond these limits. If someone is casting the Wish or Miracle for you, their intentions and attitude can affect the outcome.

I would want to know what the limits on these spells are.

Other than some clarification on points such as those, there's nothing there that I would object to.

[Cartigan]

On Summoning, no one is hurt by Conjuration (Summoning). The creatures aren't really there, so to say. That's why they are subject to spell resistance and Protection from X spells. When they "die," they just go back to whence they came.

[erikun]

Backup characters are allowed. They come in at average party level minus one.

Any reason for this? Punishing characters for having the unfortunate circumstance of dying doesn't seem fair, and having them come in at a lower level would just be a drag on the party. Less than average WBL would accomplish much the same thing without hampering the character's level-appropriate abilities.

If a rules loophole is discovered that allows an overpowered action, it works the first time, but it's a fluke and never happens again. If you are trying something truly broken, I reserve the right to throw my DMG at you.

I would recommend the whole bookcase. And the offending player must spend next session sitting next to said bookcase, for ease of toppling if they try it again.

[Callista]

re. calling/summoning--It depends on what the creature thinks of as abuse. If you're summoning imps and then ordering them to fight ancient red dragons, you better believe you're gonna have some po'd imps on your hands. On the other hand, if you're summoning lantern archons, they may be perfectly willing to get themselves occasionally roasted and recalled to their home plane for a good cause. Summoned animals aren't too likely to consider you an enemy, even if you do use them to detect traps; but if you summon a celestial being and force it to do something horrible, you'll have an enemy for life. And if you Gate in a pit fiend and mess with it, I feel sorry for you.

Wish/Miracle: The spell description states the limits. Outside those limits, the spell may fail or produce a lesser effect than what was wanted. If they're being cast by someone who wants to screw you over, you may get a corrupted, literally interpreted, or otherwise twisted wish.

Re. bringing in backups at average level-1: They also get more XP at a lower level, so they catch up pretty quick. If we decide to just level up without using XP, I guess that'd have to be changed.

[Tyndmyr]

Any reason for this? Punishing characters for having the unfortunate circumstance of dying doesn't seem fair, and having them come in at a lower level would just be a drag on the party. Less than average WBL would accomplish much the same thing without hampering the character's level-appropriate abilities.

It's not fair. But here's the thing...death is supposed to be a penalty. It's not something that is supposed to treat the one who died the same as the one who lived.

Additionally, allowing new characters to come in at average party level devalues resurrection spells. It becomes very attractive to let the party loot the body of the fallen and make a new char instead of taking the wealth/level hit.

[Pigkappa]

Most of them are good. I quote the ones I don't like:

# The Monk gets full BAB; Flurry of Blows is an attack action.

I would say that Flurry of Blows is a standard attack action. I'm not sure, but the way you've written it, it may imply that a level 20 monk can use a Full Attack to make 3 attacks, and each of them is a Flurry of Blows (so, 15 attacks).

# Sneak Attack now works on Undead and Constructs.

Fluffwise, this makes little sense...

# Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest).

This makes it even better in some cases (e.g. when dealing with a very angry Fighter who has low will save and likely no ranks in sense motive and diplomacy). I would make it an opposed check against the opponent's level/hitdice if it's better than his sense motive, will save or diplomacy bonus. Also, heavy circumstance bonuses and penalties should apply.

If you are not at a game, your character fades into the background and is assumed to be there, just unusually quiet.

This is absolutely unrealistic in combat situations. What happens if there's a TPK when one player is missing?

# If your character is in serious trouble, he may choose to pray to his deity. Whether the deity answers depends on the importance of the situation, the character's status with his deity, the nature of the request, and a factor of random chance. Depending on who the deity is, they may also make demands/requests of your character in return.

There's the risk that the players will expect you to save them in case of need. I wouldn't like this.

[aquaticrna]

Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.

Pretty sure that it says this explicitly in the phb under wildshape. AFB so i can't double check

[SurlySeraph]

Most seem quite good and eminently reasonable.

standard[/B] attack action. I'm not sure, but the way you've written it, it may imply that a level 20 monk can use a Full Attack to make 3 attacks, and each of them is a Flurry of Blows (so, 15 attacks).

This is an issue, yep. Reword to say that you can use FoB to make 2 attacks as a standard action, or an extra attack as part of a full attack as normal.

This makes it even better in some cases (e.g. when dealing with a very angry Fighter who has low will save and likely no ranks in sense motive and diplomacy).

I'm pretty sure it means you use whatever's best for the person resisting, not what's best for the diplomat.

Also, you may get a Druid player who wants to say his druid is a world traveler, or comes from The Tropical Island Of Extremely Badass Animals, or who writes out a full list of every animal his druid has ever seen. Such people can be dealt with by telling them that they should be reasonable, and you'll be the judge in cases where they aren't.
(As a side note, allowing one wildshape form per rank of Knowledge (nature) can be a a useful houserule for people who want to obsessively catalogue everything they could possibly turn into. I doubt you'll have that problem, but if you do it's a good solution).

[awa]

the typical logic behind allowing a rouge to sneak attack undead and constructs is that a undead and golem have weak points they might not be the same weaknesses as a living creature but their are points that are more vulnerable then others such as the joints on an iron golem or the head of a zombie.

[Callista]

Yup. If the rogue is sneak-attacking the zombie, it means he's going for the head. And if he's sneak-attacking the golem, he's probably jamming his rapier into an important part of its mechanism.

This makes it even better in some cases (e.g. when dealing with a very angry Fighter who has low will save and likely no ranks in sense motive and diplomacy). I would make it an opposed check against the opponent's level/hitdice if it's better than his sense motive, will save or diplomacy bonus. Also, heavy circumstance bonuses and penalties should apply.

Realistically, the fighter's not a diplomat--he should lose. But the spellcaster with the high Will save or the guy who knows what you're thinking before you do... not so much.

Monk's Flurry--yeah, standard action. Thanks, nice catch.

This is absolutely unrealistic in combat situations. What happens if there's a TPK when one player is missing?

Then I kick myself for failing as a DM. TPKs are not a good thing however you look at it (other than in campaign-ending pyrrhic victories).

Also, you may get a Druid player who wants to say his druid is a world traveler, or comes from The Tropical Island Of Extremely Badass Animals, or who writes out a full list of every animal his druid has ever seen. Such people can be dealt with by telling them that they should be reasonable, and you'll be the judge in cases where they aren't.

Make a reflex save vs. Flying DMG.

There's the risk that the players will expect you to save them in case of need. I wouldn't like this.

There's a random chance. I'm totally rolling for it, probably on percentiles. If a level 1 character is begging Pelor for a new war horse, I'll probably give it a 1% chance of happening and have Pelor be kind of miffed and insist on the fellow taking on a quest or something in exchange. Whereas, if we've got your basic level 15 devout cleric of Pelor out of spells and begging the god to heal his dying friend because he's the only one who can perform the ritual that'll save Townsville from the army of undead... that's got a higher chance, maybe an even fifty-fifty chance, though it's still likely that the cleric's going to take stat damage from being in direct contact with a god.

[Pigkappa]

As a side note, allowing one wildshape form per rank of Knowledge (nature)

Very good idea imo. Could also work for knowledge (arcana) or spellcraft and polymorph, maybe.

[Tyndmyr]

the typical logic behind allowing a rouge to sneak attack undead and constructs is that a undead and golem have weak points they might not be the same weaknesses as a living creature but their are points that are more vulnerable then others such as the joints on an iron golem or the head of a zombie.

Yeah, the idea of zombies not having a weak point in the form of "shoot it in the head" has always struck me as odd.

[lightningcat]

•Druids must have encountered the animal in question to use its form for Wildshape. If the animal is common where your druid comes from (according to his backstory), it is available.

This is NOT a house rule. This is a rule.

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

Sorry, I get annoyed that everyone wants to ignore one of the few limits that RAW Wildshape has.

[Tanngrisnir]

If you are not at a game, your character fades into the background and is assumed to be there, just unusually quiet.

I'm a fan of this. I have never seen the point in punishing someone when they can't make it to a session. That's not a friendly thing to do and goes against the spirit of the game for me. We always just have it that the character is still there and as a group decide what they would do, being careful to never put them in too much danger, take an action we don't believe their player would chose to do, or use any one time only items.

It works and its easy, and no one gets punished or annoyed.

Diplomacy is an opposed check rather than a flat DC. It may be opposed by Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or a Will save (whichever is highest)

I can't really remember the diplomacy rules but I'd be careful to ensure this doesn't mean that most enemy fighters can just be defeated by talking to them and making them see your point of view.

All in all, I'd be very happy playing under these rules, though I'd prefer going for the 'everyone levels at same time' thing, because I'm not a fan of parties with a range of character levels in them.

[tyckspoon]

This is NOT a house rule. This is a rule.



Sorry, I get annoyed that everyone wants to ignore one of the few limits that RAW Wildshape has.

"Must have seen" is a house rule. Almost anything dealing with that or any other familiarity clause is a house rule, because there are no rules defining "familiarity." Do you have to have seen it once? Do you have to have reasonably detailed knowledge of it, as per an animal you have actually studied or perhaps owned as a pet? Is it enough to make a successful Knowledge check about it, even if you've never personally run into one? All of those are some level of familiarity, resulting in wildly varying levels of power for Wild Shape and similar abilities, and the books provide no guidance about just how much familiarity they meant.

[Amnestic]

The party cannot have both Good and Evil characters in it simultaneously (I may approve exceptions if you explain how the party can make it work).

Eh, I think restricting their alignments is unnecessary. A simple "The party must be able to work together without undermining each other." (whatever that entails) works fine, I think. Evil characters can still be more than happy to work with Good characters for whatever reason, sometimes for something as simple as the heart of the cards Friendship. Not a bad rule - similar to one I use myself, but I think it's a step too far. *shrug* Your decision though, I understand why it's there considering some of the stories of players stabbing each other in the back and whatnot you hear on these forums.

When casting Calling, Summoning, and related spells, remember that your targets have independent lives and allies of their own. Abuse them, and they may retaliate.

Not much to say about this one other than "I recommend the Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud."

Choose one Profession skill. This is your character’s job before he became an adventurer. You gain four free skill points at level one to put into that skill, and one point at every level thereafter.

I like this one and will probably use it myself.

Not much else to say about the rest, seem pretty decent all around.

[grimbold]

overall these seem like reasonable rules
none of them are overly penalizing on the game
you may want to ban Gate and Genesis
in addition you may want to do more for your monk fix

[dps]

I suggest rolling scores only be done at the table.

Absolutely. It's amazing how much better luck some players have when they are allowed to pre-roll their characters at home.

OTOH, I'm old-school--I think it should be roll 3D6, in order.

[Cartigan]

OTOH, I'm old-school--I think it should be roll 3D6, in order.

They do that in 4e Gamma World. To aid in making joke characters primarily.

[Skaven]

In regard to druids, I would advise the following if you're seriously anti-shapeshifting, since one of the worst offenders seems less affected. Anyhow, this is my houserule.. which I have not tested, since not of my players have chosen the druid class since I put them in. Not that these houserules affected that.. none of my players ever seem to want to play druids.

At level 5, Druids need to choose an aspect of nature to focus on. At this level and after this level, only the class feature chosen will increase.

1, One with nature: Druid gains wildshape as a class feature. Gains EX abilities of forms assumed and the extra wildshape feat. Spellcasting and animal companion does not increase after this level.

2, Force of nature: Druid continues gaining spellcasting. Does not gain wildshape, animal companion ceases to grow more powerful.

3, Friend of nature: Druids animal companion continues to grow more powerful. Spellcasting does not increase and wildshape is not gained. (This one might need some limited access to the animal companion buffs at the levels they normally become available.)

[Callista]

Interesting. I think it's a bit overdoing it as a druid fix, but why don't you write it up as a druid variant over on the homebrew board? I like the idea of a druid class with different paths you might be able to take. I think slowing down rather than completely stopping the spellcasting might be a better idea, though--maybe every other level or so.

[aquaticrna]

I think eliminating 2/3 of the druids most interesting class features is a little much, i'd find it more interesting if the other two advanced more slowly or something... the flavor is nice, maybe the other two paths only give you access to certain spells? the friend of nature one could give continued access to summoning and ally buffing spells while the one with nature path gives access to self buffs, and force of nature is everything else?

[Kylarra]

I'm always a bit eh at seeing the druid hit firmly with the nerfbat when the other T1 classes are left more or less untouched. As far as T1 classes go, Druid is probably one of the weaker ones, although it seems to get hit by the nerfbat the most often as it has actual class features to target.

One thing I might throw out there is to add more skills/lvl to classes and put search/spot/listen onto more lists.

[awa]

part of the druids problem is how its nearly idiot proof. Ive seen plenty of level 10ish Sorcerers (i know sorcerers arnt wizards but they would have made the same mistake with a wizard) who just blasted and conserved their spells to much and were therefore ineffective and heal bot clerics that almost only memorized the cure line.
but druids even if they forget to cast entirely will still contribute and mabey even dominate just by turning into a bear and fighting alongside a bear

[Callista]

I don't see why that's a problem. That makes the druid pretty good for a player just starting out; when they have more experience, they can try a wizard.

A sorcerer-like caster druid might be a useful addition to the array of homebrew classes, though. It would allow the druid's magic into lower-powered games. Just have Wildshape use up a spell slot.

[The Glyphstone]

The only thing I'd find questionable is the fighter feats. Fighters don't need more feats (particularly if they're limited to core, and even if they're not), they need actual class features.