New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Amiria's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Lost in L-Space

    Question [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    Basically, Amiria's (the PC, which is me ... it is complicated ) personal prestige class; a modification of the 3.5 Incantatrix (PGtF). The result is the Metamuter (or Metransmuter ?) Inspired by the fact that in AD&D the Extension spell (something like early Metamagic) was in the Alteration / Transmutation school.

    Entry requirements

    Skills: As Incantatrix, + Knowledge (History) 4 ranks
    Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Transmutation), any one metamagic feat
    Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level Transmutation spells of the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list

    Basic Class Features

    Hit Die: As Incantatrix
    Base Attack Bonus: As Incantatrix
    Saving Throws: As Incantatrix
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As Incantatrix
    Spells per day/Spells known: As Incantatrix
    Skill Points: As Incantatrix
    Class Skills: As Wizard

    Unique Class Features

    01st: Bonus Metamagic Feat
    02nd: Cooperative Metamagic (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
    03rd: -
    04th: Bonus Metamagic Feat
    ------Metamagic Effect (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
    05th: Metamagic Spell Trigger (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
    06th: Instant Metamagic 1/day (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
    07th: Bonus Metamagic Feat
    08th: -
    09th: Instant Metamagic 2/day (restricted to Tranmutation spells)
    10th: Bonus Metamagic Feat
    ------Improved Metamagic

    Quick Overview of changes

    Not: Focused Study, Seize Concentration, Snatch Spell
    Restricted: Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Metamagic Spell Trigger, Instant Metamagic
    Other differences: different entry requirements (mainly pertaining feats); keeps the Wizard spell list; Metamagic Effect 1 level later; Instant Metamagic 1/day 1 level earlier

    [hr]
    The gist is that I don't have to take the Iron Will feat, that I don't have to give up a(nother) school of magic and that I keep the Wizard skill list.

    For that I give up 2 class features completely and (severely) restrict 4 others to Transmutation spells.

    Balanced (against the RAW Incantatrix) or not ?
    The Countess of Mispelling hath returned !__________________________________________________ _________Behold my magnetoresistance !
    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    This isn't just any drow. This is a drow who is willing to have a good-aligned flying snake come out of her body so she can then fart rainbows.
    Outer Sphere__________________________________________________ _______________Inkatar !__________________________________________________ _______________Starship

    Spoiler
    Show

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    This might be better in the homebrew section.

    The brokenness of the 3.5e Incantatrix lies in its Improved Metamagic ability. At the least, being able to stack any number of +1 metamagic feats onto every spell without restriction is impressive. Some interpret the ability as reducing +0 metamagic to -1 metamagic, which means you can put high-cost metamagic on the spell effectively for free. An Incantatrix who has all of his spells Quickened at the same level is obviously rediculously powerful.

    In that sense, your class is about as powerful as the Incantatrix. You don't seem to have limited Improved Metamagic to just Transmutation, and even if you did, there wouldn't be anything stopping a Wizard from just applying it to Baleful Polymorph or something similar and tossing them out repeatedly.

    As for other abilities, I am not sure what Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, or Metamagic Spell Trigger is supposed to do, as you didn't explain them and they aren't part of the Incantatrix class. Your class takes 3 feats to enter and gives 4 free feats, which is on par with the Incantatrix (which takes 2 and gives 3). You've taken away a few of the odd Incantatrix powers, and while they are handy, they probably don't apply most of the time anyways.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Amiria's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Lost in L-Space

    Default Re: [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    Not sure if it should really be homebrew, it is just some simple modifications done to a well-known (infamous) prestige class.

    I know that Improved Metamagic is very powerful. I don't interpret the ability as reducing +0 metamagic to -1 metamagic, not sure if that was in the erata anyway. However, the Arcane Thesis feat (PHB2) allows that as far a I'm aware.

    From what I've read, Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect are also "brokenly" good and restricting them to just Transmutation spells reduces quite a few options there.

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    As for other abilities, I am not sure what Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, or Metamagic Spell Trigger is supposed to do, as you didn't explain them and they aren't part of the Incantatrix class.
    They are part of the Incantatrix class. I'm talking about the 3.5 Incantatrix which is in Player's Guide to Faerūn (PGtF), not the 3.0 version from Magic of Faerūn (MoF) which you can find at the online.
    Last edited by Amiria; 2011-03-31 at 05:23 PM.
    The Countess of Mispelling hath returned !__________________________________________________ _________Behold my magnetoresistance !
    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    This isn't just any drow. This is a drow who is willing to have a good-aligned flying snake come out of her body so she can then fart rainbows.
    Outer Sphere__________________________________________________ _______________Inkatar !__________________________________________________ _______________Starship

    Spoiler
    Show

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2008

    Default Re: [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiria View Post
    They are part of the Incantatrix class. I'm talking about the 3.5 Incantatrix which is in Player's Guide to Faerūn (PGtF), not the 3.0 version from Magic of Faerūn (MoF) which you can find at the online.
    Ah, I was looking at the online version, so that would be my mistake. That said, I did point out that limiting the abilities to only Transmutation spells wouldn't weaking the class very much. They would have some trouble using save-or-lose against shapeshifters, but otherwise have no problem turning opponents into guppies or allies into dragons.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    I do believe Improved Metamagic limits to +1; mostly, only alternate payment and Arcane Thesis, and either Easy or Practical allow reduction to 0 that I know of.

    this is certainly weaker than the standard Incantatrix, though limiting to transmutation doesn't really reduce the power of persisting buffs (which are mostly transmutation, and are basically the only things worth affecting with metamagic after they're cast) much.

    however, it is possibly even worse-balanced; it is basically no-brainer after Master Specialist 1, which grants SF (Spellcraft), and Master Specialist is already almost no-brainer for anyone with Spell Focus. bonus feats and familiar progression are the only reasons to stay in wizard, and this grants bonus feats, and faster, with basically no drawbacks. the only cost is SF (Transmutation).

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Amiria's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Lost in L-Space

    Default Re: [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    I'm not sure if Transmutation is really "The" buff school to go with Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect. Abjuration and to a slightly lesser extent Divination also have many buffs.

    "Certainly weaker" and "possibly even worse-balanced" seem to clash somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    bonus feats and familiar progression are the only reasons to stay in wizard, and this grants bonus feats, and faster, with basically no drawbacks. the only cost is SF (Transmutation).
    I see that as a Specialist Wizard (Transmuter) going into Master Specialist there is no significant feat tax. About the other stuff, you can say the same thing about Incantatrix then.
    Last edited by Amiria; 2011-04-01 at 05:09 AM.
    The Countess of Mispelling hath returned !__________________________________________________ _________Behold my magnetoresistance !
    Quote Originally Posted by KillingAScarab View Post
    This isn't just any drow. This is a drow who is willing to have a good-aligned flying snake come out of her body so she can then fart rainbows.
    Outer Sphere__________________________________________________ _______________Inkatar !__________________________________________________ _______________Starship

    Spoiler
    Show

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    Improved Metamagic has a lower limit of +1 level. You can't use it to stack +1s on for +0, nor can you use it to use +0 to get -1.

    The brokenness of Incantrix lies in Metamagic Effect.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2009

    Default Re: [3.5] Is this balanced (against the Incantatrix) ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amiria View Post
    I'm not sure if Transmutation is really "The" buff school to go with Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect. Abjuration and to a slightly lesser extent Divination also have many buffs.

    "Certainly weaker" and "possibly even worse-balanced" seem to clash somehow.
    incantatrix at least has some sort of lasting cost (focused study), even if you can mostly work around it. this is outright better than straight wizard with a feat tax that you basically get back at 1, and accelerated feat progression.

    I see that as a Specialist Wizard (Transmuter) going into Master Specialist there is no significant feat tax. About the other stuff, you can say the same thing about Incantatrix then.
    and if you're going into this anyway, there is no point in not going master specialist, since master specialist is also outright better than straight wizard if you need skill focus (spellcraft) anyway.

    incantatrix, at least, has a negligible cost.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •