Project Heretica - not just a Paladin retooling

[toapat]

One of the major problems i have with any rewrite that happens with a class that gives the class a plethora* of abilities, the more potential people see in it, the more they want to adjust it to the way they want it, and to do something they want.

*A measure of legth, too long for a reasonable character sheet.

[Retroactive]Build it the way you want it Oskar.[/Retroactive] I regret budging on my Marine class.

[T.G. Oskar]

One of the major problems i have with any rewrite that happens with a class that gives the class a plethora* of abilities, the more potential people see in it, the more they want to adjust it to the way they want it, and to do something they want.

*A measure of legth, too long for a reasonable character sheet.

[Retroactive]Build it the way you want it Oskar.[/Retroactive] I regret budging on my Marine class.

I don't make changes ever so slightly. One thing is to refine the concept, another one is to mold it to the likes of others.

When I ask for opinions and post it everywhere I can, I get a load of insight that might be missing. Right now, I found the first few levels were a bit of a hassle, because the Paladin relied mostly on melee attacks and their smites. This isn't theoretical; it's based on playtesting, against a damage-optimized Fighter and a Bard, with a switch-hitter as a fourth man (or woman, essentially). I gauged (correctly) that the Paladin would reach its full potential at 11th level, right after getting 3rd level spells and Divine Grace. Now, I didn't do this thinking of a highly optimized character, but one that used Elite Array (and Middle Age bonuses/penalties), and an unusual method of fighting which wasn't really optimized (Battleaxe and Tower Shield, Javelins for long range damage, but using Stunning Smite and Aura of Devotion which are some of the best abilities there). The current changes reinforce the class as a whole, but specifically reinforce the first few levels so that the Paladin can contribute far from effectively, but not to the degree of being a one-man army without any effort. I couldn't have gotten that just from one source.

That said: I don't just mindlessly agree with what people say. I attempt to debate the reasons, and if I don't find the idea alluring, I don't do it. If I find the idea alluring, I agree to it, and if I find it can be added through modifications, I do so. It's basically doing it the way I want to, but taking into consideration the ideas of others. While I agree that the Paladin is somewhat weak at the first few levels (hence, why I added stuff like Protector's Might to reinforce sword & board and the bonus feat at 2nd level, and now with spell save DCs based on class level meaning that the few 1st level spells with save DCs will remain effective at all levels), I don't like front-loading the class too heavily, hence why I don't agree with other things (such as Aura of Devotion at 1st level, or returning Divine Grace at 2nd level). I find that line of thought a much more rewarding method of homebrewing than just keeping things as I like them or just adding everything people tell me without having thought of the repercussions before.

Thanks for the concern, though.

[toapat]

I think one of the real problems with Paladin is that even in the SRD, they are a frontloaded class with three really late milestones. One of the challenges is making a Paladin a class with more then 9 levels and 11 undead ones, and not lumping the first 6 with abilities.

Anyway, Comments: One thing i noticed when making a Paladin rebuild, was that if you kill wisdom for Charisma, you yield a class that is a little too good with charisma (even if you dont add more spell levels and make a number of abilities based off of Str). Personally im not entirely sure about this, but i believe that a change of the attribute for bonus spells from Cha to Str would alleviate the problem.

Divine Deterrence has no AoE, clearly unintentional, but that is how it is RAW.

Hero of Legend: Outsiderhood is cheesy, and it doesnt contribute to the feel of paladin. Not only that, but it is underwhelming. A paragon of good may be what a paladin, but having them become outsiders comes with the same cheese as the PHB paladin code.

Removal of the Mount: I can see why, although isnt one of the common complaints of DnD that you dungeoncrawl throught 30' Tall corridors 3 miles underground?. The other problem is that as standard, the Mount, being a Horse, gives you little reason to get off it to fight. Its a powerful feature because of how mounted combat works, but its a double edge in that the mount is completely worthless without you sitting on it, why i would wait 3 levels for a Griffin ala Defenders of the Faith, a mount that although still gigantic, is able to at least effectively fight.

(Long commentary about how PF paladin isnt a paladin)

Also: the Marine was a bit also getting too much into the idea and forgetting balance

[T.G. Oskar]

Almost two months late, but here goes. Apologies for the tardiness.

I think one of the real problems with Paladin is that even in the SRD, they are a frontloaded class with three really late milestones. One of the challenges is making a Paladin a class with more then 9 levels and 11 undead ones, and not lumping the first 6 with abilities.

It's less about frontloading and more about "no reason to stay" (the milestones don't help a lot). I've heard people mentioning the importance of a class in the first 5-6 levels (the levels where most people tend to play anyways, a reason why E6 exists in the first place), so a back-loaded class is a really bad idea (since you're trudging through dirt to get to the good stuff, when at those early levels you really needed those abilities). Indeed, it's a challenge to rework a Paladin, but those first 6 abilities have to be carefully considered. At most, the first 6 levels should define the key aspects of the class and the other 14 address each tier of play (if you wish to call it that way), with levels 6-10 addressing less grittier conflict (Heroic conflict), levels 11-15 addressing worldwide conflicts, and levels 16-20 addressing conflicts beyond the grasp of mortal men.

Anyway, Comments: One thing i noticed when making a Paladin rebuild, was that if you kill wisdom for Charisma, you yield a class that is a little too good with charisma (even if you dont add more spell levels and make a number of abilities based off of Str). Personally im not entirely sure about this, but i believe that a change of the attribute for bonus spells from Cha to Str would alleviate the problem.

It's...partly the point. The idea was to have ONE good stat (Charisma) and two equally competing stats (Strength and Constitution) with enough consideration as to have one stat being secondary and the other tertiary. Protector's Might and the auras make Strength less of a necessity, whereas Smite DCs and the power of Divine Punishment/Deterrence, plus a d12 Hit Die, good Fort and Divine Grace make Constitution less of a necessity and reinforces the idea of Strength. That doesn't mean you'll neglect it, but if you were to have, say, three scores (those being 18, 16 and 14), you'll want the best score on your primary score, the second best on your secondary, and so on.

Basing bonus spells out of Strength is...bizarre, to say the least. I have no idea how Illumians can pull it off, because it makes little sense. I say "little" because there must be some sense to use your physical might as a conduit for extra spells, but use your force of personality for spellcasting altogether; yet, that amount of sense is pretty small to say the least.

Divine Deterrence has no AoE, clearly unintentional, but that is how it is RAW.

Technically it's the same area of effect as an aura, even if you drop off the aura when using it. Good catch, tho.

Hero of Legend: Outsiderhood is cheesy, and it doesnt contribute to the feel of paladin. Not only that, but it is underwhelming. A paragon of good may be what a paladin, but having them become outsiders comes with the same cheese as the PHB paladin code.

I'd beg to differ, but I can see where this is going. Becoming an Outsider at very high levels offers very little (immunity to Charm/Dominate Person but the inability to use Enlarge Person, proficiency with all Martial weapons which you have already, and probably Darkvision, about 19 levels late), but it can contribute to the feel: it's the closest thing to becoming the exemplar of what you preach. I don't get that about turning into an outsider being the same cheese, unless you refer to "it stinks the same", in which I mention that the code is not really that stink-worthy (it's the people that wish to exploit it for purposes other than roleplaying that do, which is why I emphasized the idea of making the code an entirely roleplayed thing, not mechanically enforced). If, by the other hand, you refer to having the intricate connection (sure, you're a paragon of good; you also have the responsibilities and restrictions that come with it) with the code, well...remember that such a thing is, once again, best dealt with through roleplay.

Becoming an outsider isn't really underwhelming, though; it is somewhat underwhelming mechanically, but not in terms of roleplay. Becoming an outsider is not just turning into a paragon of what you believe, but it brings the idea of transcendence from the mortal coil. The paladin is above and beyond a mortal, but s/he has earned that; tagging a special code to keep that is expected, but exploitable. The Saint template has the same things: turns you into an outsider with a load of good stuff, but the restrictions are just so oppressive it's just waiting to be exploited. Being a Paladin is already harsh in Core; imagine tagging a template that has a "one strike, you lose all of this FOREVER" thing to it.

Removal of the Mount: I can see why, although isnt one of the common complaints of DnD that you dungeoncrawl throught 30' Tall corridors 3 miles underground?. The other problem is that as standard, the Mount, being a Horse, gives you little reason to get off it to fight. Its a powerful feature because of how mounted combat works, but its a double edge in that the mount is completely worthless without you sitting on it, why i would wait 3 levels for a Griffin ala Defenders of the Faith, a mount that although still gigantic, is able to at least effectively fight.

That's just one of the many complaints which promoted its removal (or at least, its transformation into an ACF). The big one, however, is that it's an ability that simply got tagged on because it represents a very specific archetype, without realizing that the paradigm of said archetype has changed.

In layman terms: not every Paladin HAS to have a mount, and kinda drags you into making that ability useful. Were the Paladin to actually make the mount useful, it would have at least given bonus feats that had Mounted Combat or...I dunno, give Mounted Combat as a bonus feat!? However, if you didn't want to use the Mount for combat and just wanted to go bare-foot, you were losing on what was essentially the best attribute of the Paladin. Later on, you got Charging Smite and Underdark Hunter and Divine Spirit replacing those, but they covered the second half of 3.5's run to pull that off.

Going earlier in the thread, it's much like giving the Paladin wings: it does not cover what most people envision of the Paladin. Already there are people who won't use my work because it's not what they envision (some envision the Crusader as the one and ONLY fix for the Paladin, others use PF, others use different fixes that fit their idea better), so alienating them will cause some trouble. Removing the mount was easier than keeping it, because you'll be capable of finding a mount eventually (just not one that's really powerful), but you also get something for when you get outside of battle AND that applies when you're mounted.

(Long commentary about how PF paladin isnt a paladin)

I'm more than willing to listen to it. Aside from the Smite not being a smite (as I've said, if you're going to smite, I want to see the Lightning of the Gods frickin' smite my opponent, some sort of huge, satisfying BOOOM!!!!, not a "tag, you're it" kind of thing), the rest keeps pretty close to what the 3.5 Paladin was. It gets a slightly better Lay on Hands (which can be used to power Turn Undead), keeps Divine Grace, Aura of Courage and Divine Health, and it retains its spellcasting (just gets one level earlier for purposes of 1st and 2nd level spells). It also retains the mount but offers a core replacement. So I don't see how it can't be a Paladin; I can see how it doesn't satisfy my needs, even if it's much better than what they did to other classes (poor Barbarian and Bard).

[T.G. Oskar]

"The Pally needs help, but I'm scared of homebrew!"

...well, while not exactly explained like that, this is by large the most popular excuse that I've heard regarding any bit of homebrew, whether it's for the Paladin or not.

Let's face it: while I'm more than satisfied by Project Heretica, it won't be everyone's go-to choice for their tables. Some are adamantly convinced WotC made a stealth change by making the Crusader. I can tell you this: in a few weeks from now, Wizards of the Coast will relaunch the Core Rulebooks with added errata. If I see the "Paladin" entry replaced with the Crusader, I will gracefully accept defeat; however, if I see the entry I see on the SRD essentially intact (barring the Errata; aka, if I see Smite Evil and Divine Grace and Spellcasting and the Mount), I will feel truly free to gloat that the Crusader is a great class, but it's NOT the Paladin as WotC envisions it.

Doubly so if the Monk remains as-is.

Some others feel there's nothing wrong with the Paladin, going so far as to decry the Tier System (and any other form of gauging balance points, such as the rightmost Dungeons & Dragons Wiki method of balance points (Low/Monk, Moderate/Fighter, High/Rogue, Very High/Wizard) as irrelevant or flawed, and that a Fighter is a perfectly balanced class (and thus, so does the Paladin; the Monk, on the other hand, is unbalanced because it's chock-full of options). Trying to illustrate the point that Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Artificers are better equipped to solve many problems may (and sometimes WILL) be responded with scorn.

Those earlier two cases, well...I don't want to say they're hopeless (everyone's entitled to their opinion; it's a problem when opinion is tried to be used as fact), but there's little I can do to change their minds. It's one reason why I tend to be helpful instead of "here's a much, much better fix for the Paladin; use it and solve all your problems, such as obesity, diabetes and lack of money, not to mention lack of popularity!"

However, there's a group that feels uncomfortable with how the Paladin is presented, but is scared of large homebrew projects. A fully retooled class is akin, to these people, like going through a mad science experiment. If they see far too many changes to the class, they...essentially freeze up and say "no, I don't allow it on my table/I won't use it on my sheet".

Oddly enough, if it's the creator of the class, and it remains short and sweet, people are willing to listen. Examples of this are the Hexblade, the Shadowcaster fix by Mike Mearls, and to an extent the 10-level Invisible Blade by Kolja Raven-Liquette. Some people don't want complete retoolings, but prefer patches, small fixes to the class, instead. If it feels like the old class but works better...well, it's what I want!

Sadly, I'm not the creator of the Paladin class. I wish I could; I wish I was right there on the list of people that made the 3.X version of the rules such as Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Jonathan Tweet and others (ironically, none of them work for WotC anymore, save for Cook's brief stint and eventual departure because of...Mike Mearls). BUT, I can offer a patch that some people might be willing to work with.

In fact, I can offer at least two. And one for the Blackguard, for good measure.

1) The very small Paladin fix

The first version is almost essentially indistinguishable to the core 3.5 Paladin, except for some of the most popular recommendations given out there. This should feel exactly as the Paladin does, but working at least 25% better. It'll be spoilered to reduce space, but it should be otherwise remarkably similar:

Spoiler

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Alignment: Lawful Good
Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills: The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	1st	2nd	3rd	4th
1st	+1	+2	0	+0	Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/encounter	-	-	-	-
2nd	+2	+3	0	+0	Divine grace, lay on hands	-	-	-	-
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+1	Aura of courage, bonus feat, divine health	-	-	-	-
4th	+4	+4	+1	+1	Turn undead	0	-	-	-
5th	+5	+4	+1	+1	Smite evil 2/encounter, special mount	0	-	-	-
6th	+6/+1	+5	+2	+2	Bonus Feat	1	-	-	-
7th	+7/+2	+5	+2	+2		1	-	-	-
8th	+8/+3	+6	+2	+2		1	0	-	-
9th	+9/+4	+6	+3	+3	Bonus feat	1	0	-	-
10th	+10/+5	+7	+3	+3	Smite evil 3/encounter	1	1	-	-
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+3	+3		1	1	0	-
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+4	+4	Bonus feat	1	1	1	-
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+4	+4		1	1	1	-
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+4	+4		2	1	1	0
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+5	+4	Bonus feat, smite evil 4/encounter	2	1	1	1
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+5	+5		2	2	1	1
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+5		2	2	2	1
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+6	Bonus Feat	3	2	2	1
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+6		3	3	3	2
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+6	Smite evil 5/encounter	3	3	3	3

Smite Evil: Now usable per encounter instead of per day.

Bonus Feats: One at 3rd level, and every three levels afterwards. Choose from Fighter bonus feats, divine feats (after 6th level) or domain feats (after 6th level). Replaces Remove Disease.

Spellcasting: A paladin's caster level is equal to its class level minus 3. Paladin uses Charisma instead of Wisdom for spellcasting (save DC, bonus spells, etc.)

Added spells:
1st -- entropic shield, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith
2nd -- aid, bear's endurance, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds (from 3rd level), status
3rd -- cure serious wounds (from 4th level), magic vestment, protection from energy, remove disease
4th -- cure critical wounds, disrupting weapon, righteous might

Now, as you can see, it's slightly more powerful (I mean, it incorporates some stuff from Pathfinder!), but not THAT much. The feats are there because they're part Fighter, and they get only a few more spells. Nothing earth-shattering like Air Walk or Find Traps. They get a few healing spells earlier, but no biggie. Really; this is pretty lax for a fix, and the only reason it's on a table is because it looks neat. But, aside from the feats (and that it says "per encounter" instead of "per day"), it's basically the same table from the SRD. If you don't agree with this and feel this fix makes it too powerful...I have no idea what you're smoking, but I don't want that! Then again, I don't smoke. I abstain from tobacco, alcohol and other stuff.

2) The moderate Paladin fix

Now this fix is a bit more extensive, because it changes even MORE of the stuff. It'll look a lot like the Pathfinder Paladin for many reasons; it's not the PF Paladin, but it darn looks just like it!

Spoiler

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Alignment: Lawful Good or Neutral Good
Hit Dice: d10

Class Skills: The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	1st	2nd	3rd	4th
1st	+1	+2	0	+2	Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/encounter	-	-	-	-
2nd	+2	+3	0	+3	Divine grace, lay on hands	-	-	-	-
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+3	Aura of courage, bonus feat, divine health	-	-	-	-
4th	+4	+4	+1	+4	Turn undead	1	-	-	-
5th	+5	+4	+1	+4	Divine bond, smite evil 2/encounter	1	-	-	-
6th	+6/+1	+5	+2	+5	Bonus Feat	2	-	-	-
7th	+7/+2	+5	+2	+5		2	-	-	-
8th	+8/+3	+6	+2	+6	Aura of resolve	2	1	-	-
9th	+9/+4	+6	+3	+6	Bonus feat	2	1	-	-
10th	+10/+5	+7	+3	+7	Smite evil 3/encounter	2	2	-	-
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+3	+7		2	2	1	-
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+4	+8	Bonus feat	2	2	2	-
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+4	+8	Aura of righteousness	2	2	2	-
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+4	+9		3	2	2	1
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+5	+9	Bonus feat, smite evil 4/encounter	3	2	2	2
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+5	+10		3	3	2	2
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+10		3	3	3	2
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+11	Bonus Feat	4	3	3	2
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+11		4	4	4	3
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+12	Smite evil 5/encounter	4	4	4	4

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins gain proficiency with tower shields

Smite Evil: Now usable per encounter instead of per day. A paladin deals extra smite damage equal to 5 plus her class level.

Mark Evil (ACF): as Pathfinder Paladin Smite Evil, usable 1/day + 1/5 paladin levels, replaces Smite Evil.

Aura of Courage: The range of a paladin's aura of courage increases by 10 ft. for every five class levels above 3rd.

Lay on Hands: A paladin's daily allotment of healing is equal to 5 plus her class level times her Charisma modifier.

Bonus Feats: One at 3rd level, and every three levels afterwards. Choose from Fighter bonus feats, divine feats (after 6th level) or domain feats (after 6th level). Replaces Remove Disease.

Spellcasting: A paladin's caster level is equal to its class level minus 3. Paladin uses Charisma instead of Wisdom for spellcasting (save DC, bonus spells, etc.)

Added spells:
1st -- aid, entropic shield, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith
2nd -- bear's endurance, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds (from 3rd level), dispel magic (from 3rd level), find traps, heroism, sound burst, spiritual weapon, status
3rd -- air walk, cure serious wounds (from 4th level), good hope, greater magic weapon (from 4th level), invisibility purge, magic vestment, protection from energy, remove disease, searing light, water breathing
4th -- cure critical wounds, dimensional anchor, disrupting weapon, holy smite, righteous might, spell resistance, true seeing

Turn Undead: A paladin turns undead as a cleric of its class level.

Divine Bond: As the Pathfinder Paladin's divine bond. ACFs that replace special mount replace this ability instead.

Aura of Resolve: A paladin is immune to charm effects. Allies within range of aura of courage gain a +4 morale bonus on saves vs. charm effects.

Aura of Righteousness: A paladin gains damage reduction 10/evil and immunity to compulsion spells. Allies within range of aura of courage gain a +4 morale bonus on saves vs. compulsion effects.

Now this feels like a proper fix (the other one feels like a half-hearted patch), since it adds more stuff, makes other stuff better, and addresses some of the class' problems. The spells are much, MUCH better, and both smite evil and lay on hands feel like real menaces now. You can change your mount for a holy-esque sword. You get more feats, AND you can be Neutral Good now. You don't get the Mercies, of course, but you can essentially smite to your leisure and get Divine Feats galore. You also miss on two of the PF Paladin auras (Justice because you don't grant everyone the ability to smite evil, and Faith because...well, that's what Bless Weapon is for anyways! Or a Holy Avenger, of course), but the remaining auras are MUCH better than in any incarnation. If you feel this is too much, refer to the above patch. If you feel this is still too little, then refer to below.

3) The Heavy Paladin Fix

Refer to the first page, second post. That's your heavy Paladin fix there. A heavy Paladin fix IS essentially a complete retool, which is the whole purpose of this thread after all. I support the heavy Paladin fix, by the way; this is for the benefit of those who want less intensive fixes.

[T.G. Oskar]

4) The Prestige Paladin fix

The following is if you believe that the Paladin works best as a Prestige Class and not as a class. As it stands, the Prestige Paladin is truly underwhelming, only worthwhile to get Paladin stuff for 3 levels and then drop it like it's hot, while getting that nifty Cleric spellcasting (or Favored Soul, that is). I like it as a class, but if you swing towards a PrC, this is the fix for you.

Spoiler

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Requirements
To qualify to become a paladin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Lawful or neutral good
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Feats: at least two of the following: Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization
Spellcasting: Able to cast 1st level divine spells, able to cast protection from evil as a divine spell

Class Skills
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex) and Sense Motive (Wis)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Spells per Day
1st	+1	+2	+0	+2	Detect evil, smite evil 1/encounter, turn undead	-
2nd	+2	+3	+0	+3	Divine grace, lay on hands, special mount	+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+3	Aura of courage, divine health	+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
4th	+4	+4	+1	+4	Bonus feat	-
5th	+5	+4	+1	+4	Smite evil 2/encounter	+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
6th	+6	+5	+2	+5		+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
7th	+7	+5	+2	+5	Bonus feat	-
8th	+8	+6	+2	+6		+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
9th	+9	+6	+3	+6		+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
10th	+10	+7	+3	+7	Bonus feat, smite evil 3/encounter	-
11th	+11	+7	+3	+7		+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
12th	+12	+8	+4	+8		+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
13th	+13	+8	+4	+8	Bonus feat	-
14th	+14	+9	+4	+9		+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability
15th	+15	+9	+5	+9	Smite evil 4/encounter	+1 of existing divine spellcasting ability

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A paladin grants proficiency with tower shields.

Spellcasting: At every level except 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th and 13th, the Paladin advances spellcasting as if it gained a level in a divine spellcasting class it belonged previously. She gains spells per day (and spells known), and an increase in caster level as if she had gained a level in the class, but not any other benefit. She may cast spells from her base spell list or the Paladin spell list; if a spell appears a level or two earlier, the paladin may cast it at that level, unless the spell allows a save DC. At 10th level and again at 13th level, the paladin gains an increase in caster level but not on spellcasting ability. Battle Blessing explicitly works with spells cast by a paladin, but only up to 4th level.

Smite Evil: Once per encounter, a paladin may smite evil. A paladin adds her Charisma to attack rolls and deals extra damage equal to 5 plus her class level. If the paladin has a smiting ability from another class(such as that from the Destruction domain), levels in that class stack for purposes of determining smite damage. A paladin gains an extra use of smite evil every five class levels.

Turn Undead: A paladin gains the ability to turn undead as a cleric of its class level; levels in cleric stack with levels in paladin to determine turning ability.

Lay on Hands: A paladin may heal herself or others by touch, up to a number of hit points equal to 5 plus her class level times her Charisma modifier.

Special Mount: A paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent mount. Her mount progresses as per the Paladin's special mount, but she counts as a paladin of three levels higher than the norm. The mount also gain the celestial template for free.

Bonus Feats: A paladin gains a bonus feat at 4th level and every three levels after 4th. She may choose from Fighter bonus feats, divine feats or domain feats. She must meet the prerequisites for the feats, as usual.

Because the PrC version of the Paladin has the benefit of other classes' abilities, it's not as important to really buff it as it would with a class. It does have some clarifications (Battle Blessing!), but otherwise it's not necessarily a powerhouse. It's better than the original, of course, because it has slightly better spellcasting ability (8/13 spellcasting, which is roughly equivalent to 6/10ths spellcasting, a minor boost from that sorry excuse for half-spellcasting). The levels that don't grant spellcasting levels instead grant feats, which can be expended on divine or domain feats, which is very nice indeed.

Bonus) The Blackguard fix

Because Project Heretica is "not just a Paladin retooling" (as I've more than shown off), it's natural to consider that the Blackguard may just have the same treatment as the Paladin. And, considering that the Blackguard IS already a PrC, it essentially should have the same treatment as the Prestige Paladin. It's more of a bonus than anything else, so...

Spoiler

Show

Requirements
To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Intimidate 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks
Feats: at least one of the following: Improved Sunder, Mounted Combat, Power Attack
Special: Must have made contact with an evil outsider

Class Skills
The blackguard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex) and Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Spells per Day
1st	+1	+2	+0	+2	Aura of evil, detect good, smite good 1/encounter	As paladin
2nd	+2	+3	+0	+3	Dark blessing, wounding touch	As paladin
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+3	Aura of despair, combat talent, poison mastery	As paladin
4th	+4	+4	+1	+4	Rebuke undead	As paladin
5th	+5	+4	+1	+4	Fiendish servant, smite good 2/encounter	As paladin
6th	+6	+5	+2	+5	Combat talent	As paladin
7th	+7	+5	+2	+5		As paladin
8th	+8	+6	+2	+6		As paladin
9th	+9	+6	+3	+6	Combat talent	As paladin
10th	+10	+7	+3	+7	Smite good 3/encounter	As paladin
11th	+11	+7	+3	+7		As paladin
12th	+12	+8	+4	+8	Combat talent	As paladin
13th	+13	+8	+4	+8		As paladin
14th	+14	+9	+4	+9		As paladin
15th	+15	+9	+5	+9	Combat talent, smite good 4/encounter	As paladin

Spellcasting: A blackguard advances spellcasting as if per a paladin, with the following exceptions: the list of spells a blackguard may cast are presented below. A blackguard with no levels in paladin casts spells as a paladin of a level equal to his class level +3.

1st -- bane, cause fear, corrupt weapon**, cure light wounds, deathwatch, detect magic, detect poison, doom, divine favor, endure elements, entropic shield, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, obscuring mist, protection from good, ray of enfeeblement, resistance, summon monster I*.

2nd -- aid, blindness/deafness, bull’s strength, command undead, cure moderate wounds, darkness, death knell, dispel magic, eagle’s splendor, enthrall, inflict moderate wounds, invisibility, shatter, summon monster II*.

3rd -- animate dead, bestow curse, contagion, crushing despair, cure serious wounds, deeper darkness, greater magic weapon, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against good, magic vestment, protection from energy, rage, summon monster III*, vampiric touch.

4th -- cure critical wounds, enervation, fear, freedom of movement, greater dispel magic, greater invisibility, inflict critical wounds, lesser planar ally, poison, righteous might, slay living, spell resistance, summon monster IV*, unholy sword**.

*: Evil creatures only
**: As bless weapon and holy sword, but replace all instances of "good" with "evil", "holy" with "unholy" and viceversa.

Aura of Good: The power of a blackguard's aura of good is equal to his character level.

Detect Good: A blackguard may detect good at will as a cleric of his character level.

Smite Good: Once per encounter, a blackguard may smite good. A blackguard adds his Charisma to attack rolls and deals extra damage equal to 5 plus his class level. The blackguard gains an extra use of smite good every five class levels.

Dark Blessing: The blackguard adds his Charisma modifier to all saving throws.

Wounding Touch: A blackguard may cause damage on others by touch, up to a number of hit points equal to 5 plus his class level times her Charisma modifier. The blackguard may heal undead through these means. A blackguard cannot affect creatures immune to negative energy damage by these means.

Aura of Despair (Su): A blackguard imposes a -2 penalty on all saving throws on all enemies within 10 ft.

Combat Talent: A blackguard gains a bonus feat at 3rd level. He may choose from Fighter bonus feats, divine feats or domain feats. She must meet the prerequisites for the feats, as usual. Alternatively, he gains the ability to sneak attack as a rogue, dealing an extra 1d6 points of damage with each attack. Every three class levels after the 3rd, the blackguard may choose to gain a new bonus feat or advance sneak attack.

Poison Mastery: The blackguard is immune to all poisons, magical or otherwise. Furthermore, he may apply a poison to a weapon as a swift action.

Rebuke Undead: A 4th level blackguard gains the ability to rebuke undead as a cleric of its class level plus 3; levels in cleric stack with levels in blackguard to determine rebuking ability.

Fiendish Servant: A blackguard gains the service of a fiendish creature. This creature must be one of the following: bat, cat, dire rat, horse, pony, raven or toad. The creature gains the fiendish template and gains abilities based on this table.

Fallen Paladins
If the blackguard had levels in the paladin class and fell (thus becoming an ex-paladin), he gains further benefits based on how many levels he had:

1-2 levels: Reclaim uses of smite evil as smite good. Stack fallen paladin levels with blackguard levels for damage. Reclaim spellcasting ability; stack fallen paladin levels with blackguard levels for purposes of spellcasting ability.
3-4 levels: Use wounding touch to heal wounds (as if undead). Stack fallen paladin levels for purposes of determining wounding touch daily allotment.
5-6 levels: Stack fallen paladin levels with blackguard levels for purposes of rebuke undead.
7-9 levels: Regain immunity to fear, disease. Stack fallen paladin levels with blackguard levels for fiendish servant bonuses.
10+ levels: May corrupt holy avenger (turn into +5 unholy cold iron longsword, constant magic circle against good, targeted greater dispel magic at-will, SR 5+character level).

As you can see, the blackguard is pretty powerful all on its own. It's easier to access, has better skills, a choice between more feats or sneak attack, and more. The spell list is further improved. Also, its synergy with (ex-)paladin(s) is far, far better than before. The blackguard also gains immunity to all poisons. It's definitely less of a minion and more of a challenge. It's pretty, pretty close to a full retool, but as you may know, the full retool is on the third post of this thread (and is a class proper, plus it can kick this guy's booty brutally, even with the extra sneak attack tacked in).

--

So, questions? Comments? A fitting appendix to a wonderful thread? A bad joke that needs to be scratched away? Note that this isn't me backing off; this is an option for those who are scared of the complexity of the Project Heretica classes but want to see the Paladin (and Blackguard) mean something other than "2 levels for Divine Grace, 4 for Turn/Rebuke Undead".

[Pakis54]

i signed in for the 1st time just to write that i absolutely love your idea in the paladin class...i dont like at all the way u implemented it!!

i am pretty sure no god would choose a 0 lvl commoner to become his 1st lvl divine champion/emmesary/watch dog/.... whatever u like u may put here, without having proven his self even once not just in battle but at least tested his heart against the evil of this world....so having said that i am 100% sure paladin should be something like a prestige.what i mean is...prestige classes have 10 lvl max (for non epic situations anyways) while i do strongly believe paladin should have a 20 lvl progression but i also believe that someone to fullfil that role of a true paladin should have some "normal" prerequisites to become one!!
i cant for example believe that a god with 40+ wisdom would chose the 1st noble,kind hearted 15 year old and say...ok this guy is gonna travel the world and fight for me!!! unless in extreme cases of course,someone should prove his worth to his noble cause...otherwise every cleric following heironeus in this world should be a paladin!!not even a fighter lvl needed since they get wpn focus from their domain!!!

well i could continue for a while but not even sure if this topic is active...i just found this threat trying to find ideas for a paladin and i really liked the idea u had of him in most cases...especially ur idea about removing immunity to fear which had never crossed my mind!!

[Lord_Gareth]

Oskar, the dead levels on these PrCs offend me. Could you not simply shorten the progression and thus eliminate such levels?

[T.G. Oskar]

Oskar, the dead levels on these PrCs offend me. Could you not simply shorten the progression and thus eliminate such levels?

I could, but...there's a pretty obvious reason why it happens as such. Since they're not a fully fledged retooling of the Prestige Paladin, but rather a minor retooling, I declined for further changes. If I were to change it more and more, it would run counter to the intention of these minor fixes (make them simpler so that people don't run away from them).

There IS a good reason (irony intended) why the opposite can be true, though, but that doesn't ensure it'll lack dead levels due to compression. There's a chance it might happen (accelerating smites to 1st, 4th, 7th and 10th, then shifting bonus feats to cover uneven levels), but if not done correctly, you risk people saying "too much changes, I won't allow it". It's already a gamble to offer alternatives to my main attempt to properly deal with the Paladin, so the reward should better be worth the risk.

i signed in for the 1st time just to write that i absolutely love your idea in the paladin class...i dont like at all the way u implemented it!!

i am pretty sure no god would choose a 0 lvl commoner to become his 1st lvl divine champion/emmesary/watch dog/.... whatever u like u may put here, without having proven his self even once not just in battle but at least tested his heart against the evil of this world....so having said that i am 100% sure paladin should be something like a prestige.what i mean is...prestige classes have 10 lvl max (for non epic situations anyways) while i do strongly believe paladin should have a 20 lvl progression but i also believe that someone to fullfil that role of a true paladin should have some "normal" prerequisites to become one!!
i cant for example believe that a god with 40+ wisdom would chose the 1st noble,kind hearted 15 year old and say...ok this guy is gonna travel the world and fight for me!!! unless in extreme cases of course,someone should prove his worth to his noble cause...otherwise every cleric following heironeus in this world should be a paladin!!not even a fighter lvl needed since they get wpn focus from their domain!!!

well i could continue for a while but not even sure if this topic is active...i just found this threat trying to find ideas for a paladin and i really liked the idea u had of him in most cases...especially ur idea about removing immunity to fear which had never crossed my mind!!

Actually...why a 15 year old guy can't be a Paladin, but it can become a Cleric? The fluff suggests that the Paladin begins training as a youth, becoming a page to a senior knight, then its squire, and finally earning its spurs and armor through the investiture ceremony that turns him (or her) into a Paladin.

Second: a Paladin doesn't necessarily HAS to follow a god, unless it's Krynn or Faerun. Paladins are champions of Good, not champions of god(s); therefore, you can be an agnostic Paladin (follows no god, but believes in an inherent form of divinity that grants him or her its powers) or a Paladin devoted to good but that refuses all gods (drawing its powers from Mt. Celestia itself, for example).

Third, I don't have it quite clear what's the problem. It's my hunch that you only read a few bits of the material and found some troubles with it. I'll err on the side of wrong for this one, but the proper retool is how I envision the class; the appendix deals with alternatives for those who don't like seeing way too many changes to the class and are comfortable with some minor fixes. The Prestige Paladin fell on that set of alternatives, which would work fine as you intend (a character that has to fulfill some obligations before becoming a proper Paladin, a servant of its deity or a warrior blessed by Good to face Evil). Now, if you find that a PrC with 15 levels is somehow wrong, not only the original Prestige Paladin has 15 levels worth of abilities (well, sort of), but there are other PrCs that exceed 10 levels pre-Epic (Necrocarnate and True Necromancer, for example), even if they're rare and spread out. I'm in the middle of getting convinced to collapse the class to 10 levels so that it looks kosher, but I need to get a solid reason why that should happen from people that might be scared of the many changes done by heavy retooling and want something "light" but not "look at Tome of Battle and play a Crusader; there's your Paladin".

[Pakis54]

Thx for answering me man..hope ur not offended by the way i said things in my post!!

The fluff suggests that the Paladin begins training as a youth, becoming a page to a senior knight, then its squire, and finally earning its spurs and armor through the investiture ceremony that turns him (or her) into a Paladin.

This is one of the ways of becoming a paladin,i believe....though i believe its more of a way to become a knight than a true paladin!! The difference beeing,in my eyes at least, that a knight is more a lawful guy while a paladin tends more to the good side of the balance rather in the law-chaos axis!!

I will answer 1st ur 2nd thing: "a Paladin doesn't necessarily HAS to follow a god"! i agree, generally a "greater power" is grnating him/her with the powers she posses i used gods as a way to over simplify things cause really i didnt wanted to write a whole composition which no one would see cause i didnt know if the topic was active!!
Now what i believe that a paladin is a a Divine champion/holy champ of some greater GOOD power And from inside him comes a great sense of order and "obligation" to the world into doing the good,he feels he has to do things the "right" way....so he is Lawful too! he is a Lawful champ of Good.not just champ of good!!


So "why cant a 15 yr old become a paladin?" i am not saying it cant happen...i am saying that from the 50 or 100 cases of paladins...only 2-5 people would be chosen as paladins at such a tender age!!!
And the reason why i say this is that the world (whichever that might be) is a cruel,hard....evil world! (or at least thats the grim i like to put in my worlds so the good actions of the few really get a good praise and approval from society and give a certain satisfaction to my players)
So since the world is all that bad and this is talking in general there are of course exceptions i dont wannt be absolute....a 15 yr old has not yet gone out there....seen or better felt, true evil with his eyes...most importantly...cause he has always been considered to be a "kid" no one would have ever tried to "take him to the dark side" or bribe him with power over people...generally hasnt proven his heart to the world!! i hope u understand what i am trying to say!!!

i think we both agree that to be a true paladin there has to participate one way or the other in some kind of ritual,apocalypse or something divine so he may take those divine powers! cause anyone could be a LG fighter or cleric or combination of those two and be considered by the whole world a paladin,and everyone calling him a paladin but beeing called a paladin and really beeing one has a difference!!
So this guy who became a paladin had someone/something up there who took notice of him....in the age of 15 how many gods would actually care to take notice of u when there are hundreads of other pple adventuring and doing good with experience in battle and proving everyday that they can actually can do it?? its not impossible but i am saying in most cases there are others before you!!
And what i wanted to say when i said about gods having 40+ wisdom is that the paladin is a road for those very few and no god or greater power would want to see his paladin turn into a blackguard/antipaladin tomorrow....someone he chose and gave him his powers turn against him when the next guy tells him "i will offer u this......" u can put whatever u like between the dots!! thats why i am saying he should prove in most cases his worth against the sinister foes...and not just against simple minded goblins and kobolts!!which ur obviously gonna fight at 1st lvls!!

about ur 3rd comment...i read the pladin alone and just the 1st 2-3 pages of comments in which u had added other classes like the blackguard so i dont really know the whole context of what has been said (but u cant blame a man when u write so much lol-but anyways i was looking for a new idea for a paldin really)

now about not feeling good with major changes i thought i gave the impression of the contrary having said about a special prestige with 20 classes instead of the typical 10 u would find in most cases!!! anyways thats not my problem at all...i find all the prestige classes i found the same and exact thing the normal class has just stuffed in 10 lvls rather than in 20 lvls which the Phb has and was utter BS in 99% of the cases while urs had new fresh ideas and not just a recycling of the same all crap and thats why i commented here!

Now why i believe the class should be prestige is cause i believe someone to fullfil the role of a paladin should have somethings as requirements....for example i believe a paladin should have a good wisdom! in most cases we see people playing the lawful stupid paladin! i have for example even seen guys trying to play a paladin and trying to convince a skeleton to not attack them!!!!!!! since the paladin is a leader he must not make hasty and stupid desicions cause in most cases its not just his own life at stake which he might want to throw away but since the whole party is following (not forgetting the cohorts etc etc) he cant make stupid decisions and put their live in front of certain death! he should have some certain experience to lead people,to listen what others have to say and not act hasty to realize whats going on around him and not run into traps..all those things i believe come from a good if not high wisdom score...and thats yet another reason why i believe a 15yr old cant still be a paladin...how can he lead other pple when he does not have the exp for that?!! and we want people to respect him of course not follow him just cause he shines on his way to their doom!!!
also...he should be able to interact in a good way with people....he dont want him swearing all the time in inapropriate situations...a dimploacy even if not that good i believe is a necessity and same goes for knowledge nobility(its not only to see if u know that king or the other paladin) but also in showing respect to people greater than him in a matter or ranks,experience,age etc etc...also,i believe a paladin should be able to treat his wounded frnds and companions a small rank in healing checks would only benefit him...he cant let them die when they are injured...he is the one who took him...his feeling of responsibility towards them makes him learn few things about healing methods,and of course for himself if he is travels alone,he cant always depend on the gods mercifulness!! moreover a knowledge of even the most basics in religions is smthg a paladin should have so he can distinguish the followers of good and evil gods their markings their teachings and of course what is that greater power who granted him those powers!!! in the end it might sound the same as good wisdom but i believe he should have an indomitable will,iron will or whatever will bonus so he can be considered someone who does not change his mind easily or runs away from problems only cause he doesnt like the way they sound...he must have that integrity and even maybe stubborness to not back off when facing an evildoer!! sorry for the huge comment...hope u understand what i am trying to say and sorry for my english!! peace!

[Popertop]

he should have some certain experience to lead people,to listen what others have to say and not act hasty to realize whats going on around him and not run into traps..all those things i believe come from a good if not high wisdom score...and thats yet another reason why i believe a 15yr old cant still be a paladin...how can he lead other pple when he does not have the exp for that?!!


.... also...he should be able to interact in a good way with people....

If I remember correctly, in the older editions the Paladin was a prestige class, and you needed to have 17 (!) Cha in some cases in order to take it.

So I can see the design choice you are agreeing with here.

Well said.

[NineThePuma]

That might be true of 1E, but 2E AD&D the paladin could be taken at base... but required some high scores in order to even take it. My PHB for that edition is not in reach, but I can go grab it if you need me to.

It's worth noting that every "Fighter" type class (Warrior/Ranger/Paladin) all basically got Leadership free at 9th level in the prior edition.

Also, none of them could cast spells, so yeah.

[T.G. Oskar]

This is one of the ways of becoming a paladin,i believe....though i believe its more of a way to become a knight than a true paladin!! The difference beeing,in my eyes at least, that a knight is more a lawful guy while a paladin tends more to the good side of the balance rather in the law-chaos axis!!

True, but here's the deal: the Paladin, as envisioned right from 1st Edition, had the feel of a knight. The way in which you became a paladin was essentially the knight's investiture rites.

Recall that the inspiration for the Paladin right from 1st Edition was that of Charlemagne's Paladins (particularly those from Three Hearts and Three Lions), based on the chansons de geste dealing with Roland and the Twelve Peers. Another inspiration, of course, is the Knights of the Round Table.

I will answer 1st ur 2nd thing: "a Paladin doesn't necessarily HAS to follow a god"! i agree, generally a "greater power" is grnating him/her with the powers she posses i used gods as a way to over simplify things cause really i didnt wanted to write a whole composition which no one would see cause i didnt know if the topic was active!!
Now what i believe that a paladin is a a Divine champion/holy champ of some greater GOOD power And from inside him comes a great sense of order and "obligation" to the world into doing the good,he feels he has to do things the "right" way....so he is Lawful too! he is a Lawful champ of Good.not just champ of good!!

That's something I decided to change, if only a bit. Paladins still have that Lawful bent, but I relaxed that feel because doing things the "right" way *CAN* be pretty subjective. One's vision of right and wrong WILL differ from the other, and both may aspire to the same goal.

Now, the perception of the Paladin has changed greatly from one edition to another. I also feel that the Paladin is a Divine Champion (the reason why I consider the skeleton of abilities the Project Heretica Paladin an example of the "Divine Champion" chassis), with some of the trappings of a classical knight interwoven within; the Paladin is the Champion, whereas the Cleric is the Voice and the conduit of Power (and the Favored Soul is just a lucky guy who gets to be the god's favorite). Part of that change is how many other games have envisioned Paladins; they have removed the knightly trappings to a point and infused divine power up the wazoo, and the end result is less "noble knight" and more "divine champion". This isn't inherently bad.

What's bad is when you take the "divine" side to its "logical" conclusion. The manifestation of divinity does not necessarily HAS to involve a deity. D&D involves the pursuit of divinity through a philosophy, rather than a physical being; whereas in 1st and 2nd Edition this wasn't the case, 3rd Edition ran with the idea and somewhat promoted it. The Druid is no less divine (as it uses "DIVINE" magic) than a Cleric, but a Druid doesn't have to follow a god. It follows nature, which provides that power. The Paladin, likewise, follows a deity of good, the philosophy of good, or gains power from the paragons of Good.

As for whether it HAS to be Lawful...you can expect the paragons of Good to trust someone that's disciplined, but sometimes that doesn't need to be the case. The idea of "Lawful Stupidity" stems from the idea of someone who follows the way of Law far more than it follows the way of Good; when the "right" thing to do conflicts with the Good thing to do, and you insist on the "right" thing even if it's morally ambiguous. If you HAVE to be equally Lawful as you are Good, you'll end up unable to act in that way, which leads to inaction through negligence, which can be far worse than doing something wrong.

So "why cant a 15 yr old become a paladin?" i am not saying it cant happen...i am saying that from the 50 or 100 cases of paladins...only 2-5 people would be chosen as paladins at such a tender age!!!
And the reason why i say this is that the world (whichever that might be) is a cruel,hard....evil world! (or at least thats the grim i like to put in my worlds so the good actions of the few really get a good praise and approval from society and give a certain satisfaction to my players)
So since the world is all that bad and this is talking in general there are of course exceptions i dont wannt be absolute....a 15 yr old has not yet gone out there....seen or better felt, true evil with his eyes...most importantly...cause he has always been considered to be a "kid" no one would have ever tried to "take him to the dark side" or bribe him with power over people...generally hasnt proven his heart to the world!! i hope u understand what i am trying to say!!!

i think we both agree that to be a true paladin there has to participate one way or the other in some kind of ritual,apocalypse or something divine so he may take those divine powers! cause anyone could be a LG fighter or cleric or combination of those two and be considered by the whole world a paladin,and everyone calling him a paladin but beeing called a paladin and really beeing one has a difference!!
So this guy who became a paladin had someone/something up there who took notice of him....in the age of 15 how many gods would actually care to take notice of u when there are hundreads of other pple adventuring and doing good with experience in battle and proving everyday that they can actually can do it?? its not impossible but i am saying in most cases there are others before you!!

Reading this, and the next paragraph, points me to a slight little thing. I have the impression you're falling into Stormwind Fallacy, though not as clear as it may seem. I might be wrong, and I'll err on my judgment being wrong, but you're placing far too much importance on the roleplaying aspect and trying to steer the mechanics to fit that aspect: the powers HAVE to be earned after a test that proves your worth, but this test has to be roleplayed. The character HAS to be both Lawful and Good, instead of being devoted to Good but having some wiggle room between Law (without truly falling into Chaos). The Paladin can't be a youth (or at least, starting his adulthood) because it hasn't yet tested himself.

For starters, the Paladin's fluff states that the prospective individual is chosen from his youth; if you decided, on character creation, that you wanted to have a level in Paladin, is because the gods, or the paragons of Good, deemed that you were worthy in word and deed (incidently, why you have to start as Lawful Good; in my case, Neutral Good is allowed as well). This is part of your backstory, as implied by the developers; you have, somehow, proven yourself to be a worthy Paladin. From what I see, you have a different vision of how a Paladin becomes worthwhile; it has to prove himself (or herself) in adventure, rather than through some minor deed. That's admirable, but it's something that you as a DM, or perhaps as a request for your DM as a player, must work. It's your opinion on how a Paladin has to earn its spurs, which isn't the same belief as others might. To make it better: more than proving you have the right to become a Paladin, I believe that you have to prove you can REMAIN a Paladin. Part of the reason I removed the severe "revocation of power" penalty from the Paladin is because it didn't fulfill its function, which is something that should be dealt almost exclusively through roleplaying. If you're roleplaying a Paladin wrong, it shouldn't be because you're trying to dodge a mechanical penalty, but because you're playing the Paladin wrong; however, if you're at least struggling, you should have some room for mistakes. Otherwise, no one would be capable of becoming a Paladin, because the restrictions would be so strict, no one would meet them. Think of Roy when he gets audited on Celestia; that's how I envision the paragons of Good watching whenever someone fits to be a Paladin. If they strive, even if they fail, to be Good in word and deed, they're fit to become Paladins, because their quest will be one filled with strife, and failure.

And what i wanted to say when i said about gods having 40+ wisdom is that the paladin is a road for those very few and no god or greater power would want to see his paladin turn into a blackguard/antipaladin tomorrow....someone he chose and gave him his powers turn against him when the next guy tells him "i will offer u this......" u can put whatever u like between the dots!! thats why i am saying he should prove in most cases his worth against the sinister foes...and not just against simple minded goblins and kobolts!!which ur obviously gonna fight at 1st lvls!!

That last sentence deals with another concern: in my opinion, no evil is too small to be considered worthless.

Sure, no god, nor greater power, wishes for its champion to fall into Darkness. No god, or greater power, at least in D&D, is perfect to prevent that; otherwise, knowing that every mortal has the chance, and the choice, to follow Good or Evil (some more than others, particularly humans) and that said mortal has the chance to taste absolute Good and then fall, no god or greater power would grant the mantle of the Paladin to ANYONE save for their own angels (and even then, you see fallen angels around). They can choose a few that will be hardened enough to resist temptation, but it's not perfect. You have to also consider the nature of that offer; if the offer is pointless and you choose it, you did it because you wanted. But what about the conflict; when both choices are of equal value, and right (or wrong) are meaningless? When there's no third choice, or when time or circumstances prevent you from making a third choice? Will the paragons of Good lay down their banhammer to the Paladin because circumstances go against it?

Don't tell me "that's what Atonement is for", because that's not the answer. Someone who'll obviously choose the "right" answer leads to a boring story. When someone, conflicted between the choice of its lifetime or standing up for his beliefs, chooses his beliefs and surpasses its weakness of will, it creates an astounding tale. It's not the same when you have someone that you know that'll choose "no" when a fiend grants him power, than when you know that someone will choose "yes" and you suddenly hear that "I don't, and I won't" that leaves everyone speechless. It doesn't have the same weight. The former is your impression of Paladinhood; rigid, inflexible, hardened and tested. The latter is what happens when someone who's "unfit" to be a Paladin proves his mettle, and proves why he's really fit to be one. The former doesn't require a Wisdom of 40+; the latter requires an understanding of the individual that transcends a mere ability score.

To make it short: no evil, nor evil act, nor good, nor good act, is too small to be worthless. When a 1st level Paladin, yet untested on the world, finishes a small warband of orcs, it might not have shifted the weight of Good and Evil towards Good, but it made a small step, and probably helped a community that needed it. Knowing that someone devoted to good did it, and not someone who did it for glory or following the whims of a deity, matters to that community just as much. It's, once again, something best dealt with roleplaying, which is the core of your concerns.

now about not feeling good with major changes i thought i gave the impression of the contrary having said about a special prestige with 20 classes instead of the typical 10 u would find in most cases!!! anyways thats not my problem at all...i find all the prestige classes i found the same and exact thing the normal class has just stuffed in 10 lvls rather than in 20 lvls which the Phb has and was utter BS in 99% of the cases while urs had new fresh ideas and not just a recycling of the same all crap and thats why i commented here!

Now why i believe the class should be prestige is cause i believe someone to fullfil the role of a paladin should have somethings as requirements....for example i believe a paladin should have a good wisdom! in most cases we see people playing the lawful stupid paladin! i have for example even seen guys trying to play a paladin and trying to convince a skeleton to not attack them!!!!!!! since the paladin is a leader he must not make hasty and stupid desicions cause in most cases its not just his own life at stake which he might want to throw away but since the whole party is following (not forgetting the cohorts etc etc) he cant make stupid decisions and put their live in front of certain death! he should have some certain experience to lead people,to listen what others have to say and not act hasty to realize whats going on around him and not run into traps..all those things i believe come from a good if not high wisdom score...and thats yet another reason why i believe a 15yr old cant still be a paladin...how can he lead other pple when he does not have the exp for that?!! and we want people to respect him of course not follow him just cause he shines on his way to their doom!!!
also...he should be able to interact in a good way with people....he dont want him swearing all the time in inapropriate situations...a dimploacy even if not that good i believe is a necessity and same goes for knowledge nobility(its not only to see if u know that king or the other paladin) but also in showing respect to people greater than him in a matter or ranks,experience,age etc etc...also,i believe a paladin should be able to treat his wounded frnds and companions a small rank in healing checks would only benefit him...he cant let them die when they are injured...he is the one who took him...his feeling of responsibility towards them makes him learn few things about healing methods,and of course for himself if he is travels alone,he cant always depend on the gods mercifulness!! moreover a knowledge of even the most basics in religions is smthg a paladin should have so he can distinguish the followers of good and evil gods their markings their teachings and of course what is that greater power who granted him those powers!!! in the end it might sound the same as good wisdom but i believe he should have an indomitable will,iron will or whatever will bonus so he can be considered someone who does not change his mind easily or runs away from problems only cause he doesnt like the way they sound...he must have that integrity and even maybe stubborness to not back off when facing an evildoer!!

To finish this off, my belief on what should be a Paladin is on the first page. The appendix is for those who don't like such a heavy change, and have a distinct way of seeing a Paladin...which is exactly what you seek. The Prestige Paladin minor fix is, as stated, minor because it's not what I really wanted to focus upon, but as an answer to people who, like you, prefer the Paladin to be something earned, not something given. However, a great deal of your argument was heavily rooted on solutions that could be dealt with roleplaying, and which don't need a mechanical change at all, or as few mechanical changes as possible. You could make use of the Prestige Paladin, perhaps just the first 10 levels, and change the requirements so that they fit your vision of what a Paladin MUST be.

I could say, and it would be correct, that I did the fixes in the appendix essentially half-hearted, if only because I'm satisfied with my solution (the one at the first page of the thread), and I did it so that it would be a starting point. That doesn't mean it can't be refined, but if I want to refine it, it has to appeal to more than one person.

Part of the changes were to deal with mechanical concerns that more people than you have mentioned. The lack of mention to Wisdom comes from the idea that Paladins require far too many ability scores to be effective; the dreaded Multiple Ability Dependency, or MAD. Paladins need good scores in Strength (because they're martial characters), Constitution (because they're martial characters and intend to draw all hate towards themselves) and Charisma (which fuels many of its powers), and there are a lack of synergies between the three that require each to have equal importance. Wisdom in order to have a good amount of spells and perhaps some decent Will saves but nothing else just adds to the problem; hence, I removed the need for Wisdom. The concerns you state are mostly roleplaying ones; Paladins played unwisely doesn't involve the ability score, but the player's motivations; the lack of a strong will to resist compulsions is a mechanical concern, but best solved in a different way. One important concern is that "a leader is wise", but also "a leader is experienced"; experience SHOULD imply a deeper amount of Wisdom, but sometimes you can be aloof, distracted, and yet someone with a solid perspective on what things have to be done (or not), even if in others the character is a complete dunce. The mechanics of D&D weren't made to exemplify that; they're abstractions, which really cannot represent the actual Wisdom or Intelligence of the player, which may be higher (or lower) than what they have written. As proven with the problem of the Code, trying to bind mechanics to roleplay in an extremely deep extent can only lead into trouble. The big problem is that, as with most games with a strong simulationist bent, D&D has a rigid set of rules that don't favor choices that HAVE to be explained through roleplaying, even if the game IS a roleplaying one, as the idea of the game is overcoming challenges to become stronger and more powerful, in order to overcome tougher challenges. This requires (note how I used "imply" and "require") a minor degree of optimization, which requires to suspend the notion that all choices have to have some roleplaying explanation, because otherwise you may be unfit to solve some of the challenges (and hence find the problems with the Monk, the Paladin, and most classes at Tier 5 and so on).

Again, to shorten this: sometimes, it's best to think of the mechanics instead of roleplaying. That doesn't mean roleplaying isn't important; however, bad mechanical choices will lead to less chances to exploit your roleplaying, which is not good.

about ur 3rd comment...i read the pladin alone and just the 1st 2-3 pages of comments in which u had added other classes like the blackguard so i dont really know the whole context of what has been said (but u cant blame a man when u write so much lol-but anyways i was looking for a new idea for a paldin really)

Well, this is a pretty large thread, so undoubtedly you'll find yourself ending up with "TL;DR" and getting the itch to post whatever problems you have. However, that's the reason why I have a first page with the table of contents (with all the stuff you need to see) and why the appendix has that title; it's shorthand for what you might be looking for, but didn't find on the first page.

sorry for the huge comment...hope u understand what i am trying to say and sorry for my english!! peace!

Sir, I will admit three things.

First, I thrive on huge comments. I dissect them carefully and study every bit, even if at times I might seem to give it a light read.

Second, I like huge comments, because the larger the comment, the larger the response will be, and the more elaborate the answer.

Third, English is not my native language. I don't expect you to speak perfect English; I don't consider myself a native speaker (but pretty darn close). If you have any comments you feel you can speak on your native language, and that language happens to be Spanish, you can PM me and I can explain better. If it's another language, then we'll have to struggle with the English. Now, if your native language IS English...well...I'd like to say you have an excuse but that might not be possible. I incline that English is not your native language, but it was less "a mess to understand" and more "a mouthful" (as in, just speaking your mind out instead of going slowly with it), which makes it easier to understand than "a mess". So don't feel bad by it.

If I remember correctly, in the older editions the Paladin was a prestige class, and you needed to have 17 (!) Cha in some cases in order to take it.

So I can see the design choice you are agreeing with here.

Well said.

That might be true of 1E, but 2E AD&D the paladin could be taken at base... but required some high scores in order to even take it. My PHB for that edition is not in reach, but I can go grab it if you need me to.

It's worth noting that every "Fighter" type class (Warrior/Ranger/Paladin) all basically got Leadership free at 9th level in the prior edition.

Also, none of them could cast spells, so yeah.

Time to clear things out! I love when this theme comes out.

If going with Basic D&D (OD&D) and the Rules Cyclopedia, the Paladin technically was a "prestige" class of the Fighter. The Paladin was, in essence, a 9th level Fighter of Lawful alignment that refused to hold a land, and instead decided to travel the world.

If going with AD&D 1st Edition, the Paladin was a base class, or to be a bit stricter, an alternate class (or, if going through Pathfinder terms, archetype) of the Fighter. The Paladin had minimum requirements in 5(!) ability scores. The Unearthed Arcana supplement shifted the sub-class of Paladin (again, alternate class or archetype) from Fighter to Cavalier.

If going with AD&D 2nd Edition, the Paladin was exactly the same as with AD&D 1st Edition, except that the Paladin could be considered more of a base class rather than an alternate, as it belonged to the set of Fighter classes but the Fighter class proper was its own class.

But, if one thing they ALL have, is that they could cast spells. Right from Rules Cyclopedia, they could cast spells as a cleric of one-third its level (thus, a 9th level Paladin could cast spells as a 3rd level Cleric). From AD&D 1st Edition and afterwards, they cast spells using their own table. 3rd Edition grants them spells five levels earlier, but slows their progression to a snail's pace.

Recall that the first proper "prestige" class in existence was the Bard, as it required you to have levels in three classes (Fighter, Thief and Druid), and replaced your Druid levels with Bard levels as well as keeping all the stuff from Fighter and Thief (what eventually the Fochlucan Lyrist made). Paladins as Prestige Classes exist mostly on Wizardry games, where you couldn't make a Lord character at character creation unless you had real good scores, and instead relied on changing classes after a while (and even then, since you could become a Lord if you had 30 bonus points or so, it's not really a prestige class but a class proper). So, there weren't any "prestige" Paladins roaming around.

But, since you're piqued by the "prestige" version of the Paladin, I ask of you: would you like a prestigious version of the Project Heretica Paladin? Do you find the existing fix to the Prestige Paladin decent enough (aside from Gareth, who mentioned his discontent for the dead levels), or do you find it could have a slight boost? Recall, for the last one, that it should be friendly enough for skeptic DMs to consider usable, instead of anathema.

[NineThePuma]

My apologies for the misinformation about inability to cast spells. I think it slipped my mind because the Paladin (as written in 2e) did not interest me very much.

Also, as a random aside, while we have your attention, Oskar.

Do you have any plans to revisit your Ki-Chassis classes, particularly the Ninja? Like any older work, it ages, and I feel like you could give it more justice now than you did back then. =X

[T.G. Oskar]

Also, as a random aside, while we have your attention, Oskar.

Do you have any plans to revisit your Ki-Chassis classes, particularly the Ninja? Like any older work, it ages, and I feel like you could give it more justice now than you did back then. =X

Well, as you know, the Monk had an extensive revision, the likes of which I'm fully satisfied. The Samurai and the Ninja are, indeed, overdue for a revision, but I haven't had the inspiration for it. I know the Samurai is at least solid given the amount of playtesting given by Arguskos, but the Ninja feels much like the Monk did (more of a build, though the large amount of skills and skill points was a saving grace).

I've always felt tempted to make the Ninja similar to that of Naruto, but it wouldn't have made justice at all. I got a lingering wisp around that led me to think that I could make some of the ki-based skill boosts work in a similar way to the (300% more complex) Monk's Way of the Beasts, but I would have to work other class abilities to justify it.

As for the Samurai...I really wanted the class to have its own weight, without having to rely on maneuvers. Unlike the Monk or the Ninja, the Samurai never felt like a build, if only because the combat styles made the class quite distinct. However, it feels like it could have something else to contribute at. Yet, whenever I think what else to add, it always ends up with maneuvers. Something as having a pool of general maneuvers (Stone Dragon, perhaps White Raven) and then a specific discipline for each combat style (Kenjutsu = Iron Heart or Diamond Mind, the other becoming part of the general maneuvers; Kyujutsu = Falling Rain, the homebrew ranged discipline, Nitoujutsu = Tiger Claw?; Seigan = no idea; Jujutsu = Setting Sun), but it would end up no different from a Warblade with a focus on Wisdom instead of Intelligence (and proficiency with ranged weapons). If I can pull something that depends on no maneuvers, I'll definitely jump on it; however, so as long as anything seems even close to a maneuver, I have to decline. Samurai was already hard to work with, so I have to make justice if I'm to improve it.

[NineThePuma]

Ninja is more important to me than samurai in this case, as you've managed to handle the "Fighter" the "White Mage" and the "Black Mage" 'archtypes' so to speak fairly well over the course of your career as a home brewer. The rogueish skill monkey stuff though is sorely laking in your portfolio.

[Pakis54]

well 1st of all i am sorry but i am greek!!
but we have something in common..bad economies lol :p

i am also not familiar with 1st or 2nd and had just 1yr exp in 3rd edition but something like 8 yrs exp in 3.5 and now pathfinder i am also not used to some acronyms but i pretty much got the idea of what ur saying...i think!!

About the Lawfull thing...i know this could just get is in a huuge (even more than what we already have anyways) conversation about AL and i am not sure its gonna serve anyhting and i can respect the fact u have different opinion than mine in what you like,in the end its your paladin but i wanna say about this:
"As for whether it HAS to be Lawful...you can expect the paragons of Good to trust someone that's disciplined, but sometimes that doesn't need to be the case. The idea of "Lawful Stupidity" stems from the idea of someone who follows the way of Law far more than it follows the way of Good; when the "right" thing to do conflicts with the Good thing to do, and you insist on the "right" thing even if it's morally ambiguous. If you HAVE to be equally Lawful as you are Good, you'll end up unable to act in that way, which leads to inaction through negligence, which can be far worse than doing something wrong."

if u follow this you are more of a Divine champ like u put it than a Knight...a knight is someone who obeys the rules no matter what!!
About the fact that people who tend to follow more the Lawful axis than the Good one i believe its mostly cause they dont read "behind the lines" they dont get the essence of what is beeing said and just fallow the "rules" blindly!! i think a good GM should point out to them what the real meaning of the law is and also they should on their own dwell more in both their AL and code of conduct!

Lawful Good

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A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. He combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.


Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.

Lawful good can be a dangerous alignment when it restricts freedom and criminalizes self-interest.

While strict in their prosecution of law and order, characters of lawful good alignment follow these precepts to improve the common weal. Certain freedoms must, of course, be sacrificed in order to bring order; but truth is of highest value, and life and beauty of great importance. The benefits of this society are to be brought to all. Creatures of lawful good alignment view the cosmos with varying degrees of lawfulness or desire for good. The are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest. (1)

Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When people respect the laws and try to help one another, society as a whole prospers. These characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm. (2)


These characters have a strong moral character. Truth, honor, and the welfare of others is all-important. They are convinced that order and laws are absolutely necessary to assure that goodness prevails. Lawful good beings will not want to lie or cheat anyone, good or evil. They will not stand for treachery and will not let obviously dishonorable people use their own honor against them, if they can help it. They will obey the laws and customs of the area that they are in, but will attempt to find legal loopholes to disobey a law which is clearly evil or unjust. (3)


Lawful good characters are group and order oriented, and will cooperate with authority in all cases to promote the common weal. Not all lawful good beings view the cosmos with an equal desire for lawfulness and goodness, so there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced "lawful good" attitude (nor a perfectly balanced attitude for any other alignment, for that matter). In general, however, a lawful good character promotes the ideals and rights of the majority over those of the individual (and this includes himself as well as others) and upholds the rights of the weak and oppressed members of society, who should be allowed to reap society's benefits with equanimity. The lawful good being feels this is the best way that all members of society can enjoy the rights of existence together. Life is important to the lawful good being, but life is not exclusive of order, and vice versa. (4)


Lawful good can appear to be a difficult alignment to uphold, but it must be remembered that lawful good characters are not necessarily naive or unrealistic. At the heart of a lawful good alignment is the belief in a system of laws that promotes the welfare of all members of a society, ensures their safety, and guarantees justice. So long as the laws are just and applied fairly to all people, it doesn't matter to the lawful good character whether they originate from a democracy or a dictator. Though all lawful good systems adhere to the same general principles, specific laws may be different. One society may allow a wife to have two husbands, another may enforce strict monogamy. Gambling may be tolerated in one system, forbidden in another. A lawful good character respects the laws of other lawful good cultures and will not seek to impose his own values on their citizens. (5)


However, a lawful good character will not honor a law that runs contrary to his alignment. A government may believe that unregulated gambling provides a harmless diversion, but a lawful good character may determine that the policy has resulted in devastating poverty and despair. In this character's mind, the government is guilty of a lawless act by promoting an exploitative and destructive enterprise. In response, he may encourage citizens to refrain from gambling, or he may work to change the law. Particularly abhorrent practices, such as slavery and torture, may force the lawful good character to take direct action. It doesn't matter if these practices are culturally acceptable or sanctioned by well-meaning officials. The lawful good character's sense of justice compels him to intervene and alleviate as much suffering as he can. Note, though, that time constraints, inadequate resources, and other commitments may limit his involvement. While a lawful good character might wish for a cultural revolution in a society that tolerates cannibalism, he may have to content himself with rescuing a few victims before circumstances force him to leave the area. (6)


When will a lawful good character take a life? A lawful good being kills whenever necessary to promote the greater good, or to protect himself, his companions, or anyone whom he's vowed to defend. In times of war, he strikes down the enemies of his nation. He does not interfere with a legal execution, so long as the punishment fits the crime. Otherwise, a lawful good character avoids killing whenever possible. He does not kill a person who is merely suspected of a crime, nor does this character necessarily kill someone he perceives to be a threat unless he has tangible evidence or certain knowledge of evildoing. He never kills for treasure or personal gain. He never knowingly kills an innocent being. (7)


A lawful good character will keep his word if he gives it and will never lie. He will never attack an unarmed foe and will never harm an innocent. He will not use torture to extract information or for pleasure. He will never kill for pleasure, only in self-defense or in the defense of others. A lawful good character will never use poison. He will help those in need and he prefers to work with others. He responds well to higher authority, is trustful of organizations, and will always follow the law. He will never betray a family member, comrade, or friend (though he will attempt to bring an immoral or law-breaking friend to justice, in order to rehabilitate that person). Lawful good characters respect the concepts of self-discipline and honor. (7)


Here are some possible adjectives describing lawful good characters: friendly, courteous, sensitive to the feelings of others, scrupulous, honorable, trustworthy, reliable, helpful, loyal, and respectful of "life, love, and the pursuit of happiness."

The Ten Lawful Good Commandments

A list of Ten Commandments for a lawful good religion may look like this:

1. You shall not lie.
2. You shall not harm the innocent.
3. You shall not murder.
4. You shall help the needy.
5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes goodness.
6. You shall follow the law.
7. You shall not betray others.
8. You shall bring criminals and evil-doers to justice.
9. You shall not steal.
10. You shall seek unlimited good for others and unlimited order in society.

Ten Lawful Good Sins

Likewise, a lawful good religion may list the following as sins. This list is given in the order of least severe infraction to most severe.



1. Failing to show respect to lawful good churches, governments, and/or beings.
2. Failing to speak out against corruption, sin, greed, pride, etc.
3. Being motivated by pride, avarice, gluttony, or some other sinful impulse.
4. Theft, robbery, or willful vandalism.
5. Causing harm to a pious or virtuous being.
6. Failing to assist or aid good beings when in need.
7. Blasphemous or heretical acts.
8. Allowing a crime or major act of evil to go unpunished.
9. The murder of an innocent.
10. Aiding the servants of Chaos and Evil.

Lawful Good and Society

A lawful good being...
Respects the authority figures in his family and obeys their mandates.
Values lifelong commitment to a romantic partner.
Obeys all personal contracts.
Respects the laws and authority figures of the community and nation.
Considers public service in a leadership role an honor.
Supports the legal procedures of the nation, without regard to their own discomfort.
Seeks secure employment, believing hard work will pay off in the end.
Will not want to disappoint his family.
Will support their family even if it means personal discomfort.
Will never betray a friend and enjoys having close friends.
Considers the needs of the community in personal life.
Will give his life in defense of his community.
Will take actions to aid others during times of crisis, even if unprofitable to do so.
Believes everyone should be treated fairly and kindly.
Feels guilt when he commits a wrongdoing and will seek to right his wrong.
Uses wealth to help others who are less fortunate.


A community with a lawful good government usually has a codified set of laws, and most people willingly obey those laws. In a lawful good society, the people are generally honest, law-abiding, and helpful. They mean well (at least most of them do). They respect the law. As a rule, people don't walk around wearing armor and carrying weapons. Those who do are viewed with suspicion or as trouble-makers. Some societies tend to dislike adventurers, since they often bring trouble.

The Philosophy of Lawful Good

Lawful good is the philosophy that goodness is best achieved through law and order. It is a philosophy of altruistic collectivism. This philosophy holds that people should behave altruistically and put the needs of the group ahead of individual desires. Lawful good can also be associated with rule utilitarianism and ethical altruism.

Lawful good philosophers generally maintain that there is metaphysical order in the multiverse and thus may support doctrines of hard determinism, predeterminism, fatalism, predestination, and/or necessitarianism. They may believe in fate or destiny. They tend to be moral objectivists, holding that values exist in the external world independently of and external to our comprehension of them; that they can be found and known; and that they must be used as principles for human judgments and conduct.

The ideal government for this alignment is an authoritarian state with codified laws supporting a social order in which altruism is rewarded and radical egoism is punished. Lawful good beings want the power of the state to be used for the benefit of all. Rehabilitative justice is used to reform criminals and evil-doers.

i believe that if someone really gets this and realizes a Lawful guy not just a paladin is something like what happens in in the militia for those that have served...you put rules in your daily life and live by them...u have priorities....saving someones life is more important than lying for example...so the rules are important...but they come with some prioroty accoridng to their significance...(by the way the numbers in the sins for example dont go from most important to less important they are random) maybe a paladin is more strict to that and maybe not....this has also to be with the general idea his has....with his deity's commands,holy bible..whatever!!!

i have no idea what "Stormwind Fallacy" is and google didnt really help me but ya ur right that i would preffer to see the person in game get the class rathen than just say out of game...u managed it...cause u had this great backround and then find out the hard way that the player is not capable of actually playing that character..which will probbaly result in the end of having a fallen paladin and maybe a blackguard which is the most usual route in such occasions!! i dont wanna be absolute on this though but most of the times i think people just say "whatever" or "we have atonment" which is sooooo often used like panacea (and thats of course the Dm's fault),on this forum actually a guy wrote "i will have an atonment scroll on me and use it if i fall from paladinhood" and no one said a thing and i was like WTF???

in the end what i wanna say is...if u really try to play the class...i think you will be greately rewarded and the differences in what is Lawfull and what is not wont seem so great!and since this is more or less a pact between the player and the dm that i am gonna play this way (which actually benefits the dm) he should help and pay more attention his paladin and the difference that occur mostly cause of the very abstact and bad imo AL system!

" If you're roleplaying a Paladin wrong, it shouldn't be because you're trying to dodge a mechanical penalty, but because you're playing the Paladin wrong; however, if you're at least struggling, you should have some room for mistakes. Otherwise, no one would be capable of becoming a Paladin, because the restrictions would be so strict, no one would meet them. Think of Roy when he gets audited on Celestia; that's how I envision the paragons of Good watching whenever someone fits to be a Paladin. If they strive, even if they fail, to be Good in word and deed, they're fit to become Paladins, because their quest will be one filled with strife, and failure."

+100 here!!!

about this:
"Sure, no god, nor greater power, wishes for its champion to fall into Darkness. No god, or greater power, at least in D&D, is perfect to prevent that; otherwise, knowing that every mortal has the chance, and the choice, to follow Good or Evil (some more than others, particularly humans) and that said mortal has the chance to taste absolute Good and then fall, no god or greater power would grant the mantle of the Paladin to ANYONE save for their own angels (and even then, you see fallen angels around). They can choose a few that will be hardened enough to resist temptation, but it's not perfect. You have to also consider the nature of that offer; if the offer is pointless and you choose it, you did it because you wanted. But what about the conflict; when both choices are of equal value, and right (or wrong) are meaningless? When there's no third choice, or when time or circumstances prevent you from making a third choice? Will the paragons of Good lay down their banhammer to the Paladin because circumstances go against it?
"

sure no one is perfect (in the end even gods are roleplayed by a human) i am just saying they could and should be more cautious in their choices thats all!! i think i gave a bad example when talking about goblins and kobolts! they are of course evil! and maybe i am wrong in comparing pelor's goodness with how much of a big evil a goblin is!!

and maybe i do think of roleplaying to be of huge importance in comparsion to the mechanics i guess its how i work most of the time :p

[T.G. Oskar]

Seasons' Greetings to all of you people!!

So...it's 15 days before Christmas, and it'd be bad not to give a gift to all of you, at least one related to this HUUUUGE project, no?

I was planning for a "Twelve Days of Christmas" thing, but it'd be difficult to provide twelve new/unreleased bits of homebrew, one for each day. I believe I have enough material, of course, but the difficulty consists on something else, namely posting each bit of content, and what would be fitting for each day (and that includes any playing days, of course).

However, one thing I can do is provide new material for the Project. You might wonder "well, what else?" I have classes, PrCs, and even equipment.

How about spells?

Since most of these spells are exclusive to the four classes presented here, I deem it fit that they're presented as part of the Project, rather than devote a new thread. Most of these spells require a shield as a focus, and complement all classes. Spending 12 different posts to present one spell per day would be creative, but excessive; ergo, the compromise is that I post the spells during Christmas.

Also, I should post the Justiciar and the Anarch on the good and proper D&D Wiki any time soon, and I need to figure what gift should I give you guys (in terms of homebrew, of course) from the Magi.

That'd be all. It's essentially a glorified *bump*, but one that promises to deliver future material.

If you're curious: two spells are retooled, the other are brand new, save for one which covers a spell Wizards get that Clerics don't (unless by means of domains). I'll leave that as discussion until Christmas.

[T.G. Oskar]

Merry Christmas, everyone! Let's see what Santa has left you on the...

Hunh? Whaddya mean Christmas is over? What about the Epiphany? The 8 days after, giving thanks to the Magi? The two weeks of further celebration? The feastdays reminiscing St. Sebastian? February 2nd?

Well, since most of you have finished their Christmas celebrations, let's see what Santa left on the...

Stockings are empty! Why, jollly fat old elf, why!?

Oh, wait...the Magi left you gifts all! And, fittingly, they left a wealth of knowledge...regarding spells for Divine Champions! Hooray!

Oh, one of them left me a note, mentioning that he was a bit unhappy that some spells were too weak, so they researched some improvements to them. So, here they are:

GLORY OF THE MARTYR
Abjuration/Conjuration (healing) [Good]
Level: Anarch 4, Justiciar 4, Paladin 4
Components: V, S, F, DF
Target: One creature/level

This spell acts as shield other, except as mentioned above and as follows. All affected subjects gain a +1 sacred bonus to Armor Class and all saving throws per three caster levels. If you die while the spell is in effect, all creatures immediately heal 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels.

Focus: A platinum ring (worth at least 50 gp each) worn by you and each of the warded creatures.

GLORY OF THE MARTYR, LESSER
Abjuration/Conjuration (healing) [Good]
Level: Anarch 2, Justiciar 2, Paladin 2
Components: V, S, F, DF

With a brief, yet sublime prayer on the nature of martyrdom, the caster imbues the ring with a pale light. Once the rings are donned, wisps of light bind to the caster as ethereal wings of light manifest and cover the ward.

This spell acts as shield other, except as mentioned above and as follows. The warded subject gain a +1 sacred bonus to Armor Class and all saving throws per three caster levels. If you die while the spell is in effect, all creatures immediately heal 4d8 points of damage plus 1 per caster level.

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These are two of the spells changed, and if you can't use the main version, the lesser version is fair play.

Glory of the Martyr is one of the best spells, IMO, available on Book of Exalted Deeds that was never ported into latter games. The spell was, in essence, an area of effect version of Shield Other, down to the deflection bonuses to AC and resistance bonuses to saving throws, except that if the caster died, there was also a healing effect. Being a high level Paladin spell, the idea is to make it truly worthwhile, so something had to be done.

The first thing I did was to boost Shield Other so that the bonus scaled. Doing that, Glory of the Martyr shifts the deflection and resistance bonuses into sacred bonuses, meaning they stack with many other bonuses to AC and saving throws. Finally, the healing effect bound to the spell was vastly improved, because something along the lines of a Mass Cure Light Wounds spell isn't exactly fair. Lesser Glory of the Martyr grants the equivalent of a Cure Critical Wounds spell, but since it's a 2nd level spell, it's quite potent nonetheless.

HOLY SHIELD
Abjuration/Transmutation [Good]
Level: Paladin 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: Shield touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Waving the hand upon its surface, the shield begins to shine with a bright light, pulsating brighter and dimmer as if it was a heartbeat. Less than an inch from the shield’s surface, the sigil of the caster’s faith shines.

This spell allows you to channel holy power into any shield you choose. The shield acts as a +5 shield of spell resistance (providing a spell resistance equal to 15 + caster level); if used to shield bash, the shield acts as if a +5 holy weapon (gaining a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls and dealing an extra 2d6 points of damage against evil creatures). Any evil creature making a successful non-reach melee attack against you takes 2d6 points of damage from a surge of holy power. While wielding the shield, you are always considered as if brandishing your holy symbol. The spell is automatically canceled 1 round after the shield leaves your hand. You cannot have more than one holy shield at a time.

If this spell is cast on a magic shield, the powers of the spell supersede any that the shield normally has, rendering the normal enhancement bonus and powers of the weapon inoperative for the duration of the spell. This spell is not cumulative with shield of warding (see Spell Compendium for details on the spell) or any spell that might modify the shield in any way.

If your character level exceeds 20th, this spell imbues the shield with an enhancement bonus of +6, plus 1 for every two caster levels over 12th. If you hold a weapon enhanced with the holy sword spell and a shield enhanced by the holy shield spell at the same time, the two spells have a synergy effect: so as long as you wield both weapons, any evil creature that makes a non-reach melee attack against an ally within your magic circle against evil takes 2d6 points of damage (as if attacking you), and you deal this damage against any melee attack against you, so as long as the enemy is within range of the magic circle against evil effect.

This spell does not work on artifacts.

Note: the caster level enhancement assumes the paladin’s caster level is equal to half its class level. If the paladin has a caster level based on other means (such as equal to its class level, or equal to its class level -3), the enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels after the 21st.

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One of the new spells, and as you may expect, it makes reference to one of the spells that got a change.

The question behind this was as follows: if Paladins could get a temporary magic sword, why not get a suitable temporary magic shield? Thus, based on the specifics of Holy Sword, a shield variant was added.

As you can notice, the spell provides you with a shield that grants spell resistance (which may be a bit redundant with the existing ones from the Project Heretica Divine Champions, but not to the vanilla 3.5 or PF Paladin), that also provides a bonus to attack and damage when used as a weapon, AND provides retributive damage. This is a big thing I want to emphasize, because it adds to the total damage a character can provide, particularly (as you'll see with latter spells) if the damage is pretty much inevitable.

Since it's based off Holy Sword, it's natural that a synergy effect exists between both spells. As mentioned before, the best form of retributive damage is the one that's pretty much inevitable. A Magic Circle against Evil effect has a decent range (10 ft.), so if positioned correctly, enemies that attack your allies will still get damaged, thus making the Divine Champions deal damage even when it's not their turn (and particularly hurting those that land multiple hits).

HOLY SWORD
Evocation [Good]
Level: Pal 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Touch
Target: Melee weapon touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Kneeling, thrusting the sword upon the ground, the caster chants a small prayer to the forces of Good to imbue it with holy power. As the chant ends, the sword begins to glow with bright light, and an aura of goodness projects from the sword outwards.

This spell allows you to channel holy power into your sword, or any other melee weapon you choose. The weapon acts as a +5 holy weapon (+5 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, extra 2d6 damage against evil opponents). It also emits a magic circle against evil effect (as the spell). If the magic circle ends, the sword creates a new one on your turn as a free action. The spell is automatically canceled 1 round after the weapon leaves your hand. You cannot have more than one holy sword at a time.

If this spell is cast on a magic weapon, the powers of the spell supersede any that the weapon normally has, rendering the normal enhancement bonus and powers of the weapon inoperative for the duration of the spell. This spell is not cumulative with bless weapon or any other spell that might modify the weapon in any way.

If your character level exceeds 20th, this spell imbues the weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6, plus 1 for every two caster levels over 12th. At caster level 15th, the holy enchantment becomes holy power.

This spell does not work on artifacts.

Note: A masterwork weapon’s bonus to attack does not stack with an enhancement bonus to attack. The caster level enhancement assumes the paladin’s caster level is equal to half its class level. If the paladin has a caster level based on other means (such as equal to its class level, or equal to its class level -3), the enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels after the 21st. Likewise, the paladin gains the holy power upgrade to the weapon at caster level 30th.

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And yeah: Holy Sword was upgraded.

The first, and most notable boost, is that the spell is now cast as a swift action, almost duplicating the use of this spell. Since it works on any weapon equipped, you have the capability of starting the battle with a magic weapon, even if you're only limited to a mundane weapon.

The second bit is that the spell improves beyond Epic levels. It's great that at level 14 you have a +5 holy weapon, but not the same after 21st level. However, having a +9 weapon of holy power as a swift action IS worthwhile at 30th level.

PRISMATIC SWORD
Evocation/Transmutation
Level: Anarch 4, Duskblade 4, Sorcerer/Wizard 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Melee weapon touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Brandishing and presenting the sword, the caster utters the words of the spell’s incantation. The sword begins to shine with the colors of the rainbow, gaining a crystalline sheen that alternates stripes of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet.

This spell allows you to channel magic power into a melee weapon, temporarily imbuing it with the power of spells such as prismatic sphere and prismatic wall. The weapon gains a +5 enhancement bonus (plus 1 for every three caster levels after the 18th). Any time the wielder makes the first successful attack against a creature of 8 HD or lower, the target becomes blinded for 2d4 rounds (no save).

Once per round, the wielder of the enchanted weapon may unleash a burst of blinding energy against a creature attacked by it as a swift action. If the wielder of the weapon succeeds on the attack, the target is affected as if struck by a beam from the prismatic spray spell: roll a d8 and determine the result on the table. If the die result is 1, 2 or 3, the target is automatically affected by the damage, requiring no save.

While the weapon is enchanted, the wielder also gains several properties. The wielder is immune to any cone of cold, gust of wind, disintegrate or magic missile spell cast upon it, but only once per each individual spell per round, and this results in the spell temporarily losing its effects until the beginning of the wielder’s next turn. The wielder can also dispel any daylight spell (and specifically daylight) in effect within the area. However, any dispel magic (and specifically dispel magic) automatically ends the effect; any other dispelling effect automatically fails.

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Hey look, this spell snuck into the spell lists of Duskblades, Wizards and Sorcerers! You may be probably bashing me now because it's not an Anarch-exclusive spell, but hey, it's a pretty solid bone I threw them.

So, basically, this is a unique version of Holy Sword, except the effect is much, much different. It's based on Prismatic Bow from Spell Compendium, with the main difference that it can be used every round, for a large amount of rounds (at least for a minute, to be exact). The reason why it's pretty much tailor-made for the Anarch is evident: the random effect of Prismatic Spray, which is somewhat less powerful than Prismatic Wall but nonetheless pretty potent (you can kill instantly with poison, petrify or banish) or deal a large amount of damage (80 points of electricity damage, no save, no SR). You're essentially leaving to the RNGs whether the enemy will survive or die brutally.

Since the Prismatic effect is sustained, it gets affected by a variety of spells, much like the Prismatic Wall; the main difference is that you don't lose a fraction of the effects when the right spell affects you. You also get protection against Disintegrate (and Cone of Cold and Magic Missile, but the last one is easy to block), which is pretty nice as well.

SHIELD OF REFLECTION
Abjuration
Level: Anarch 4, Blackguard 4, Cleric 7, Justiciar 4, Paladin 4
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Until expended or 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

Upon finishing the incantation of the spell, the shield takes on a reflective sheen, with divine runes floating an inch from it. Whenever a spell is cast, the divine runes react and the reflective sheen expands to cover the caster’s body, taking the shape of a globe.

This spell enchants the caster’s shield so that it reflects spells cast upon the target. The spell duplicates the effect of spell turning, except the caster must wield a shield for the duration. If the caster is the target of a spell with the [harmless] descriptor, it may choose to negate the effect of this spell and allow the other spell to affect it. As well, if the attacker succeeds on a touch spell, but would fail otherwise if adding the AC from the shield, the attacker is considered to have touched the shield, allowing the caster to reflect the touch spell.

This spell is not cumulative with shield of warding (see Spell Compendium for details on the spell) or any spell that might modify the weapon in any way.

Focus: A light, heavy or tower shield, which must be worn for the duration of the spell.

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This is the first of a series of spells (including the next four that follow) that involve damage redirection in one way or another, but this one is the strongest of them all. In essence, you get the Spell Turning effect but improved, as it affects touch spells too (it still doesn't affect AoE spells, though) and it discerns between buffs and dangerous spells. Clerics get it roughly at the same moment (in fact, one level HIGHER) that the Divine Champions get the spell, so they don't get special predilection.

SHIELD OF RETRIBUTION
Abjuration
Level: Anarch 2, Blackguard 2, Justiciar 2, Paladin 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)

The caster puts his shield forward, uttering the incantation while putting its hand behind the shield. With the incantation complete, the shield glows with a dim light and a soft hum, which turn into a bright flash and a loud clang when the wielder is struck.

This spell enchants the caster’s shield so that it returns part of the damage dealt to it. Whenever the caster takes successful damage from a melee attack, half of the damage taken by the caster is dealt to the attacker. The damage comes from divine origin and cannot be reduced by means of damage reduction or energy resistance, but creatures with spell resistance ignore the attack if the caster does not succeed on its spell resistance check.

If this spell and either shield other or glory of the martyr are active at the same time, the spell creates a synergistic effect. Whenever the caster absorbs damage from a melee attack done to one of its wards, it returns half of the damage received (effectively one quarter of the damage dealt by the attacker).

This spell is not cumulative with shield of warding (see Spell Compendium for details on the spell) or any spell that might modify the shield in any way.

Focus: A light, heavy or tower shield, which must be worn for the duration of the spell.

Special: If using the Project Heretica classes, this spell creates a synergy effect with the divine champion’s auras. A Paladin, Blackguard or Justiciar emitting its Aura (or Sanction) of Retribution returns damage equal to half the damage dealt plus the amount of damage dealt by the aura or the total amount of damage, whichever is lower; spell resistance only affects the damage from the spell. A Paladin emitting an Aura of Devotion returns the damage taken by it from any successful melee attack done to a protected ally.

SHIELD OF RETRIBUTION, GREATER
Abjuration
Level: Anarch 3, Blackguard 3, Justiciar 3, Paladin 3

This spell works like shield of retribution, except that the spell also returns damage from ranged attacks.

SHIELD OF RETRIBUTION, LESSER
Abjuration
Level: Anarch 1, Blackguard 1, Justiciar 1, Paladin 1
Duration: 1 min./level
Spell Resistance: No

This spell works like shield of retribution, except that the damage dealt is the equivalent of a shield bash attack. Roll for damage as usual for a shield bash. The caster retains its shield bonus to Armor Class, however.

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The three are essentially the same spell, but in a lesser and greater version. The lesser version of the spell counters the attack with a shield bash, which can be either weak or pretty powerful (depending on how you modify the equipped shield). The normal version returns a specific amount of damage (half of the received damage), but this damage is non-typed and thus can't be resisted. The greater version also applies against ranged attacks, and doesn't specify which kind (so as long as they aren't ranged touch attacks), so it can return damage from, say, a ballista. The lesser version comes as early as 3rd level, and the normal version covers a spell level that's usually weak for vanilla 3.5 Paladins, so it's a set of win-win spells.

Being designed for the Divine Champion as well, they get a very nice synergy effect with the auras, where the damage is further multiplied if you activate the Aura of Retribution, or the Aura of Deflection (because those two auras deal with damage redirection). I'll see if I can work other spells that buff Aura of Consecration, Aura of Courage and Aura of Vigor (for the Paladin), Aura of Cowardice, Aura of Covetous, Aura of Desecration, Aura of Vengeance (for the Blackguard), the other Sanctions (for the Justiciar) and the Auras of Happenstance, Disturbance, Ennui, Rowdiness and Unpredictability (for the Anarchs).

SHIELD OF VENGEANCE
Abjuration/Evocation
Level: Anarch 4, Blackguard 4, Justiciar 4, Paladin 4
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)

Upon finishing the prayer, the shield shines with a brilliant glow, with a burst of divine energy expanding outwards. Enemies within the area feel threatened, their every aggression returned with a feeling of menace.

This spell enchants the caster’s shield so that it shifts the aggression from the attack against all enemies in area. Whenever the caster takes successful damage from a melee attack, all of the damage taken by the caster is equally distributed amongst all enemies within a 15 ft. radius of the caster. Divide the damage by the number of enemy targets within area (round down to the nearest number); this determines the amount of damage dealt by the spell. The damage can be negated by a successful Fortitude save. This damage comes from divine origin and thus is not reduced by means of damage reduction or energy resistance, but creatures with spell resistance ignore the attack if the caster does not succeed on its spell resistance check.

This spell is not cumulative with shield of warding (see Spell Compendium for details on the spell) or any spell that might modify the shield in any way.

Focus: A light, heavy or tower shield, which must be worn for the duration of the spell.

Special: If using the Project Heretica classes, this spell creates a synergy effect with the divine champion’s auras. A Paladin, Blackguard or Justiciar emitting its Aura (or Sanction) of Retribution deals an additional amount of damage equal to the amount normally returned, regardless of the result of the Fortitude save. A Blackguard emitting its Aura of Cruelty deals damage to all creatures affected whenever attacked, regardless of the result of the Fortitude save.

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Yep, this is like the other three spells, but turned into an AoE source of damage. This almost invites a lack of damage reduction or damage mitigation effects, so that you may get even more damage to redistribute. It also invites you to take damage, but since you get a large deal of hit points and healing abilities, it should be enough.

SHIELD OTHER
Abjuration
Level: Anarch 1, Blackguard 2, Cleric 2, Justiciar 1, Paladin 1, Protection 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

As the incantation is finished, the two rings glow with a pale light, a wisp binding both. Once the rings are worn, an ethereal shield projects from each ring, the wisp becoming a bond of pale light.

This spell wards the subject and creates a mystic connection between you and the subject so that some of its wounds are transferred to you. The subject gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus on saves for every three caster levels.. Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including that dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you. Forms of harm that do not involve hit points, such as charm effects, temporary ability damage, level draining, and death effects, are not affected. If the subject suffers a reduction of hit points from a lowered Constitution score, the reduction is not split with you because it is not hit point damage. When the spell ends, subsequent damage is no longer divided between the subject and you, but damage already split is not reassigned to the subject.

If you and the subject of the spell move out of range of each other, the spell ends.

Focus: A pair of platinum rings (worth at least 50 gp each) worn by both you and the warded creature.

Special: If using the Project Heretica classes, this spell creates a synergy effect with the divine champion’s auras. The damage reduction from the spell stacks with that of the Paladin’s Aura of Devotion, and if the Paladin or Justiciar emits its Aura (or Sanction) of Retribution, the effect activates if the attacker hits either the caster or its ward. A Justiciar using its Sanction of Interdiction deflects damage twice (the damage taken by the caster and that taken by its ward).

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The last modified spell is, of course, the spell that pretty much promoted all these new spells and changes: Shield Other.

As a 2nd level spell, Shield Other is one of the best spells a Paladin can get. Lasts for hours, provides a moderate bonus, and most important of all, spreads the damage between two people, improving survival of both sides against single solid attacks.

The drawbacks? It only provides a piddling bonus (let's face it: what protection is offered by a single +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus to saves if you probably, by 8th level, already have a cloak of resistance and a ring of protection?), and in the case of Paladins, it's gained a wee bit too late (8th level minimum) and with a piss-poor CL.

So, while the class itself boosts Shield Other, it's important to notice that the effect still remains kinda weak. Thus, as a minor boost, the spell now provides a boosted amount of deflection AND resistance, making it a composite buff (extra AC, better saving throws and the main protective effect). As well, in order to make it very useful, it's now turned into a 1st level spell for all Divine Champion classes, making the spell available to them as early as 3rd level. This is a superb boost, considering that you can start protecting people from low levels, and right at the moment where you have access to the auras, which means you get synergy right from the get-go.

UNHOLY SHIELD
Abjuration/Transmutation [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 4

This spell works exactly as the holy shield spell, except the shield acts as a +5 unholy shield when used for a shield bash, and if you are attacked by a creature with a non-reach melee attack, you deal 2d6 points of negative energy damage.

UNHOLY SWORD
Evocation [Evil]
Level: Blackguard 4

This spell works exactly as the holy sword spell, except the weapon becomes a +5 unholy weapon, and the weapon projects a magic circle against good.

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And, finally, evil versions of Holy Sword and Holy Shield. Unholy Shield's retributive damage doesn't help against undead creatures, but affects a wider variety of alignments (as in, ALL alignments). It's weird that there are no equivalents to Holy Sword aside from Lawful Sword, so this should be fair to Blackguards.

[Cieyrin]

Interesting, I approve. The only thing I see mentioned but unseen is Lawful Sword, which could probably use the buff of Holy Sword, unless you wanted to make it opposite the Anarch's Prismatic Sword. Which could be neat but I'm not sure how to opposite colors.

[T.G. Oskar]

Interesting, I approve. The only thing I see mentioned but unseen is Lawful Sword, which could probably use the buff of Holy Sword, unless you wanted to make it opposite the Anarch's Prismatic Sword. Which could be neat but I'm not sure how to opposite colors.

Well, I'll have to check it up again, but the intention is that Lawful Sword is basically the equivalent to Holy Sword, and there should be a Lawful Shield as well (or something along the lines for Justiciar). In fact, Justiciar and Anarchs should have exclusive spells of their own.

--

That said, I believe it's time to address something. I rarely do this, but I feel this has gone a wee bit too far. In fact, this goes directly to one poster, and it's mostly a clarification of a position said poster has assumed in various other Paladin 'brew threads, when I've invited discussion here.

toapat, you've mentioned that the Paladin as presented in Project Heretica suffers of a specific problem, and that is shoehorning the class into tanking and specifically sword & board. I've mentioned this twice: if you have such concerns about my work, please, mention it here. I'm always eager to answer and deal with any comment. In fact, I recall about 5-7 months ago doing exactly that with you, and nowhere do I see that complaint about shoe-horning. It leads me to think that, during those few months, your perception about the Paladin has changed. That's completely fair.

However...several times I've seen how you've started decrying the work of others, because they don't seem to comply to a specific design. Now, if I were to say I haven't done so, that'd be relying on my memory and it can betray me, so I won't say I haven't done so before (nor that I will, because I'll never know when I will); however, I find it a bit distasteful to give examples of particular 'brews that you find lacking and short of that perfect design you seek for the Paladin (or any other class, by the way). There's a proper way to mention it: remove the specific examples, turn them a bit more generalized, and you'll aid people who wish to do work on the Paladin while respecting the work that has come before. This is important because you never know when that 'brewer will do a change. jiriku's work on the Monk is respected because of its simplicity, and even if I don't agree with his philosophy, I don't take to bash him because he's popular or anything, and I've even posted on his thread to further the discussion and perhaps point things he might have missed. So far, I've seen that attitude in three threads, and people have pointed this out politely.

Now, to the concern proper: shoehorning.

Perhaps I might have my vices, but I don't find the class completely inclined to tanking and/or sword 'n board. Sure, it does that very well: that's the intention of the class, because I perceive the Paladin as a tank first and foremost, and particularly one that does a rare form of tanking (namely, damage redirection: think Shield Other, Glory of the Martyr, Empathic Feedback, Share Pain, the Amulet of Retribution, and other such effects). However, I find the class does other things well: a Strength-focused Paladin will have very dangerous smite effects and will naturally incline towards a two-hander, which can compensate what you'd otherwise get from Charisma (particularly if you add spells to boot), and the retributive forms of damage (Divine Punishment, Divine Deterrence, aura of Retribution) make for a very solid damage dealer when Strength is emphasized. Shields improve the effects of auras; note that as a complement and not as a necessary thing to have. Note also that the class still has Turn Undead (which is neither a tanking ability nor requires a shield), which is slightly better as the Paladin has better Charisma and its power is equal to that of a Cleric, and it still has Lay on Hands (which is definitely one of the best methods of healing, since while it lacks range and speed, it more than compensates in sheer amount of healing potential). Of the switchable auras, only one or two (Devotion and Retribution) could count as "tanking" feats, since Vigor buffs healing (explain how healing is a part of tanking, other than "it improves survival", because that means there's no healer class, but rather a "heal-tank"), Consecration is the go-to aura when fighting against undead and evil creatures, and Courage provides a nicer bonus to those under a fear effect, but it only offers moderate protection from fear.

One of the things I've heard you mention a lot is how people seem to underestimate Paladin spellcasting. I dunno, but the focus of Divine Champion spellcasting in Project Heretica takes advantage of those few awesome spells Paladins get, and modifies that list a bit further. If that STILL underestimates the spellcasting potential of the Paladin (which is limited at best, given that it doesn't improve as it should until you reach 14th level (in 3.5; PF makes it a bit more useful at 11th/12th level but lacks the spells from the Spell Compendium). Adding the Cleric spell list to the Paladin spell list is, IMO, a very elegant method to improve Paladin spellcasting. Perhaps it could be improved a bit more, adding more spell slots at earlier levels (removing the 0 spells at earlier levels); there are ways to handle it without improving the amount of spell slots to Duskblade or Bard degrees. I reckon we agree on that part. Now, if their spellcasting is pretty good (the only thing that could be perceived as a nerf is the switch from prepared to spontaneous), which by itself could be enough to improve the class one tier, why you still consider it a (high) Tier 5 that shoehorns you into tanking, exactly? One thing I don't agree with you is how you feel that they need to have Sword of the Arcane Order and Battle Blessing from the get-go, when the solution could lie elsewhere (such as, say, making full spellcasters' casting times slower?).

Another thing I've noticed is that your critique focuses exclusively on the Paladin class: indeed, while I've mentioned repetitively that the Project encompasses much more than the Paladin retooling, pretty much everybody (save a few: Cieyrin comes to mind, and so does Gareth, Grod and Nine) just focuses on the Paladin and ignores the Blackguard, the Anarch, the Justiciar, the ACFs, the spells, the Holy Avengers, the Armor Suits of Virtue, the PrCs and the lesser attempts to provide patches and fixes that don't involve a full retooling. Considering all four use the same chassis, it wouldn't be easy to collapse all four of the PBAJ classes into a single one, ignore alignment requirements and choose exactly what you wish to play. Is the Blackguard focused exclusively on tanking and shoehorned into sword 'n board? Is the Justiciar? Is the Anarch? If you remove Standing Before Adversity for Divine Spirit, does it stop being less of a tank and more of a buffer? If you replace SBA for the Mount, does the class stop being a tank? Many of the times I've seen your fixes, they always include Divine Spirit, so I know very well you prefer that as a class feature: the Project Heretica Paladin doesn't include it as an actual class feature, but it allows you to replace another. Sword of the Arcane Order and Battle Blessing are available to the Paladin.

But then again, I can't deliver the proper answer unless you explain in clearer terms what exactly you feel is the problem; exactly how the Project Heretica Paladin (or indeed, the project as a whole) does not follow (I'd say "how it violates") the design paradigm you ascribe to. I'm always open to discussion, because I always find that the product could be improved. Right now, I'm satisfied. I recall you mentioned, and I'll quote you directly:

Build it the way you want it Oskar.

...and I recall I mentioned I was right at the middle: always accepting ideas, but building it the way I liked it. I've always tried to help people in that way: respecting their work as much as I can, being a bit harsh at times but trying always to think outside the box and provide ideas on how to buff their already-existing proposals without making them blatant copies of mine. Some have taken a lot of ideas from my work, and I like that (so as long as they mention it), just as I'm sure people are appalled when their work is used as basis for those of others, or that find inspiration in their work to make their own. I don't think people find it inspiring when (and this is mostly how I perceive all of this) you speak of the flaws of others behind them, without at least trying to speak that with them directly. I believe I'm entitled to defend my work to the last, because otherwise I wouldn't post my work for others to critique.

Now, I'd like this rant to end in a positive manner. Reporting your posts would be disrespectful to your opinion, so I've refrained from doing so because I find that there's a thread and a topic to handle that (and also, because despite the disagreements, I find it's reasonable advice, so it'd be unfair to ask a mod to erase what's basically advice peppered with some bias). I've taken the initiative to speak about this, so I'd like to see how these 5-7 months have changed your perception, the basis of that design paradigm that you find is important for any and all Paladin 'brews that you find most of the prolific 'brewers have missed, and thus should be avoided (I mean, you mentioned Seerow's version, which was done in conjunction with OW4 several years ago, and its one of the best known fixes), and how applying it can improve my work. Otherwise, your statements will sound less authoritative and will adopt a tone of "holier-than-thou" that might annoy others.

[GunbladeKnight]

I love your classes (even if I would make my own minor tweaks on them), and usually point to yours first when suggesting homebrews/fixes, and your Paladin and subsequent ones are no exception.

One thing I can suggest is the aligned strike ability from the Knight of the Sacred Seal in the ToM. It would go well around level 7 or 8, but probably not any higher than 12.

[toapat]

*snip*

I try to stay away from giving a specific role to a class if it isnt intended to be, The paladin i wrote to specifically be Fold Wizard in Half was, well, To fold Wizards in half. I dont believe i actually put mechanical support into paladin itself for a specific combat style, but i will say, the Anti-Spellcaster Warcraft original style fluff paladin was bad. There were ideas behind it, but not the implementation. I Acknowledge that there were problems of too many things going on in that class, and so i quickly replaced it with a more recent brew, which i will cover in the next paragraph.

I have admitted several times in the past few weeks that i, personally, am extremely bad on the end of making paladin spellcasting relevant. Ive known fully well since before my last homebrew that SotAO has been a longterm copout ive been using. The good paladin spells, which there is at least a reasonable handful of, are extremely good, and typically people dont realize that as Printed (If they even know the spell exists), Glory of the Martyr is actually a 7-8th level spell. Divine Sacrifice may be 3rd level.

The reason my criticism doesnt extend to the other classes, is simply i havent read your other classes. The criticsim for your Paladin is specifically that you mechanically put support behind a specific combat style, which, while i do not entirely agree with the logic of JaronK, i get certain logic, such as that that puts knight and healer at Tier 5: if a class contains significant mechanical support is of one specific sub-mechanic, then there is a problem. I may be overestimating the actual weight of those mechanics though.

As i had attempted to say at the top, apparently in a different sleep depraved state, i think adding a huge number of abilities is actually, in a way, a trap people dont actually realize they write themselves into when homebrewing. I certainly did with both Templar attempt 2+ Warcraft Paladin.

[T.G. Oskar]

I have admitted several times in the past few weeks that i, personally, am extremely bad on the end of making paladin spellcasting relevant. Ive known fully well since before my last homebrew that SotAO has been a longterm copout ive been using. The good paladin spells, which there is at least a reasonable handful of, are extremely good, and typically people dont realize that as Printed (If they even know the spell exists), Glory of the Martyr is actually a 7-8th level spell. Divine Sacrifice may be 3rd level.

I've seen a lot of mention about Glory of the Martyr being a 7th-8th level spell, but to be quite frank, it doesn't reach any more than 6th level. I'm dead serious about it.

Note the effects: basically, you get the effect of Shield Other en masse, which often implies a spell 3-4 levels higher (for example: Bear's Endurance is a 2nd level spell, Mass Bear's Endurance is a 6th level spell; likewise, Conviction from Spell Compendium is a 1st level spell, whereas Mass Conviction is a 4th level spell). In fact, one of the earliest Mass spells (Mass Aid) is only two levels higher. The other effect is basically a Mass Cure Light Wounds spell in case the character dies, which is a 5th level spell effect placed as a contingency.

Had a Cleric gained access to Glory of the Martyr, the spell would have been of higher level, but nowhere near 7th or 8th level. At most, the spell would have been 6th level, as it's the normal ballpark for a mass spell based off a 2nd level spell, and how you have a 5th level spell placed in Contingency (which is by itself a 6th level spell). So that's two 6th level spells (or at least, one 6th level equivalent spell and an actual 6th level spell) plus a 5th level spell. Compare it to Holy Aura, which grants the effect of a double-strength Magic Circle against Evil PLUS spell resistance PLUS a retributive effect.

The notion you introduce is true, but exaggerate at best: 1st level Paladin spells are often equal to 1st level Cleric spells and perhaps a 2nd level spell, 2nd level Paladin spells compare to 2nd-3rd level Cleric spells, 3rd level Paladin spells compare to 3rd-5th level Paladin spells, and 4th level Paladin spells compare to 4th-6th level Paladin spells. However, that's not exactly the best way to handle it: instead, attempt to handle the spell on a per-spell basis. This is a reason why Dispel Magic is best considered a 1st-2nd level Paladin spell: because Paladins get 1st level spells at 3rd-4th level, and 2nd level spells at 7th-8th, which is where Dispel Magic becomes effective. Give it at spell level 3rd and it becomes useless (because your dispel check is limited to a +10 bonus, while a spellcaster of equal level already has a CL of 11th). Thus, Dispel Magic sucks as a 3rd level Paladin spell, has little worth as a 2nd level spell (it's worthwhile for at least 3 levels), and works well as a 1st level spell. It's a 3rd level Cleric spell, just to notice, whereas using your approximations, Dispel Magic should only be a 2nd level Paladin spell. Likewise, the Aid spell doesn't work well as a 2nd level Paladin spell, as its effect stops being relevant at around 5th level or so, which is still two levels behind when Paladin gets 2nd level spells. Note that the fix used by many people involve lowering the acquisition of spells a few levels earlier, and granting them higher level spells where they can get access to 6th and 7th level spells.

Thing is: the few spells that Paladins get that are pretty relevant? Gained at 14th level, and of those, you get only a bare few. So that means 13 levels of spellcasting without inherent worth, if you're going with the basic 3.5/PF paladin spellcasting, because many of the spells you treat as gems are often 3rd/4th level. Not everybody will notice this because by that level, the Paladin is focusing on something else or you retire the character for something better (such as, say, getting levels of Cleric and then dipping Prestige Paladin for the few rockin' spells that Paladins get, then get into ANOTHER PrC which grants increased spellcasting ability and features you might like, such as Ruby Knight Vindicator, Ordained Champion, Fist of Raziel and others).

The reason my criticism doesnt extend to the other classes, is simply i havent read your other classes. The criticsim for your Paladin is specifically that you mechanically put support behind a specific combat style, which, while i do not entirely agree with the logic of JaronK, i get certain logic, such as that that puts knight and healer at Tier 5: if a class contains significant mechanical support is of one specific sub-mechanic, then there is a problem. I may be overestimating the actual weight of those mechanics though.

Here's my main point of conflict. Exactly WHY you reach this conclusion? I'd like to see the steps that make you think my character's too focused on a "sub-mechanic", without considering that tanking might be a viable primary mechanic, that damage redirection as a method of tanking is a viable mechanic at all, or that there's several other things aside from tanking that the Paladin can do and that it can do well, which should be the hallmark of tier 3.

Then again, not everybody agrees with Jaron's proposal. I'd probably accept it if someone who wasn't familiar with my class would run it through a Same Game Test and see if it fulfills the requirements for High category, but running it with several different builds. Since "High" category roughly corresponds to tier 3, that'd be a fair comparison. If we're going for a forum-approved Tier arbiter (such as Morph), the Paladin falls right around borderline Tier 3-4, which is less than the target Tier I want it to, but higher than the base. Just fiddling with the spell list and spell slots should aim it towards Tier 4, IMO.

As I've seen it, the amount of bias behind your opinion (which is something natural, or else it wouldn't be an opinion at all) lacks enough data that could make it an informed opinion. Were it a bit more informed, it could be sustained (no less of an opinion, but one that could be defended); right now, your opinion seems a bit too heavy-handed and arbitrary, and it's starting to cause conflict, particularly when you're using the same examples over and over, and the vague (at least, how I perceive it) answer when reasoning is sought at. If, for example, you were to explain why tanking is a poor mechanic (with support behind that statement), that could be a good starting point: in that way, there could be a few points in which we might agree (or perhaps points where we agree, but for one reason or another we may seem to disagree), and that could serve as further support for any of the positions.

[toapat]

Exactly WHY you reach this conclusion?

the Divine Aura and the Protector's Might class features both give incentive to use a shield over other strategies. They also come at level 2+3 respectively

asto no low level paladin spells worth using: Divine Sacrifice and Rhino rush are level 1. I can also see the practical purpose of Silverbeard, Angel Skin, like Holy Sword, would be great if it had a duration better then Round/Level (or paladin had better caster level).

Revenance deserves an honorable mention amoung paladin spells because is also a 4th level cleric spell.

[T.G. Oskar]

the Divine Aura and the Protector's Might class features both give incentive to use a shield over other strategies. They also come at level 2+3 respectively

Just a slight question: does a buckler count as a shield? If so, the most effective way to work a Paladin is to get the best two-handed weapon around, wield a buckler, and eat the -1 to attack rolls while adding Cha to damage (plus 1.5 times your Strength) AND get the buckler's enhancement bonus to benefit all auras, and still get the best benefit from Power Attack. Wielding a buckler certainly doesn't count as "sword 'n board", and in fact many of the things that boost shields require shield bashes, WHICH cannot be done with bucklers. I don't see how that exactly promotes S'nB or tanking, particularly since a buckler nets you all the benefits of both 2H Fighting and the stuff that should be limited to Sword 'n Boarders. In fact, this wasn't intentional, as the idea was to promote wielding shields (instead of using Animated Shields), but given that bucklers are shields nonetheless, they are fair play. Bucklers aren't fit for sword 'n board because most of the feats that require shields often require making a shield bash, which is impossible when wielding a buckler (or a tower shield).

asto no low level paladin spells worth using: Divine Sacrifice and Rhino rush are level 1. I can also see the practical purpose of Silverbeard, Angel Skin, like Holy Sword, would be great if it had a duration better then Round/Level (or paladin had better caster level).

Revenance deserves an honorable mention amoung paladin spells because is also a 4th level cleric spell.

That's too small a list.

1st: Deafening Clang (gets better the higher your attack bonus, the more attacks per round you get and the better chances to make full attacks), Divine Favor (a +3 to damage might be weak, but a +3 to attack rolls can compensate for the loss from Power Attack), Divine Sacrifice (much like Deafening Clang, except you sacrifice HP for damage), Lesser Restoration, Protection from Evil (best defense against mind-affecting effects).
2nd: Flame of Faith (it's Flaming Burst, so against enemies resistant to fire it's worthless, but against creatures vulnerable to cold, or if wielding a keen scimitar, you net quite a bit of damage), Resist Energy, Shield of Warding (requires a shield, but nets you a better sacred bonus to AC than Silverbeard), Shield Other, Strength of Stone (lasts for 1 round, but it's a +8 bonus to Strength; awesome for wands)
3rd: Find the Gap (the first attack is a touch attack, which is the perfect way to spend all your BAB on Power Attack and then get Leap Attack), Greater Magic Weapon (lasts for quite some time), Holy Storm (requires a vial of holy water, but it's an area of effect spell that deals decent damage per round), Righteous Fury (sacred bonus to Strength for minutes/level)

That goes without mentioning 4th level spells, or spells other than those in the PHB and the Spell Compendium (such as, say, Mark of Doom against hydras and people that do multiple attacks, which is on the PHB II). And that's just going for spells on the 3.5 Paladin spell list.

I didn't made the improvement to the Paladin's spell list without knowing my stuff. I took pretty much all spells the Paladin has access to naturally and gauged them in terms of how useful they are (not very useful, mildly useful, better as a wand or scroll, must-have on your slots), and I'd love to expand upon that, but that doesn't mean I haven't done my research on Paladin spellcasting before working on how the spells should be adjusted. When I mention how low-level spells aren't as useful as higher-level ones, it's because the proportion of good spells to not-as-useful spells is much lower at earlier levels than at higher ones, so you'll tend to prepare the same spells more often than not.

[toapat]

That's too small a list.

Buckler: Yes.

Although going back and checking, unless you explicitly left it so, you cant smite with archery. (*long archery commentary not relevant to this topic*)

What i Listed: I was going off of paladin exclusives, otherwise i would have noted Holy Storm, Axiomatic storm, pretty much every buff at level 1, and would have some mentions at 2nd level.
Note: Silverbeard (AC bonus) can stack with Shield of Warding (Reflex saves). I may be looking at different instances of the spells from you though.

as i said, i was lazy in including SotAO as a class feature, and i really should at some point do the work to even the field between paladin spells for mine

Edit: Really, i only ever considered SotAO for haste and Celerity.

[T.G. Oskar]

Although going back and checking, unless you explicitly left it so, you cant smite with archery. (*long archery commentary not relevant to this topic*)

Yes and no.

Yes: it's not part of the main Smite Evil/Smite Good/Verdict/Entropic Strike ability.

No: it's part of the Ranged Smite ACF, which can replace one of the selections you can make at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels.

ALTERNATE CLASS FEATURE: Ranged Smite
The power of a divine warrior's faith usually manifests through their weapon. Some divine warriors' smiting abilities aren't as strong or varied, but they have a better weapon at their arsenal; range.
Level: Paladin, blackguard, anarch or justiciar 5th, 10th, 15th or 20th
Replaces: Smite evil, smite good, verdict or entropic strike (see below)
Benefit: At 5th level, or at any level you may choose a new smite ability, you may instead choose to learn how to extend the range of your known smite abilities.

When choosing this option, you gain the ability to make smites with any thrown or projectile weapon. The smite is treated by all means as if it were a normal smite, except the range increases to the range of the weapon. In the case of thrown weapons, you may throw your weapon up to a distance equal to the range of your divine aura, fiendish aura, sanction or entropic aura, but only when making the smite.

At 15th level, you may choose to improve your ranged smites. You can make a ranged smite with your melee weapon, but only up to a distance equal to the range of your aura. When using your melee weapon to make the attack, you deal damage as if the enemy was within reach of your weapon, but you don't add any extra damage from your weapon special qualities (except for the weapon's enhancement bonus).

Relevant parts bolded AND italized (those that are merely bolded are part of the format).

Since all Divine Champions could take advantage of it, and since Smite Evil is nonetheless identical to its 3.5 counterpart, there's three ways to deal with it (ACF, feat, racial substitution level).

What i Listed: I was going off of paladin exclusives, otherwise i would have noted Holy Storm, Axiomatic storm, pretty much every buff at level 1, and would have some mentions at 2nd level.
Note: Silverbeard (AC bonus) can stack with Shield of Warding (Reflex saves). I may be looking at different instances of the spells from you though.

as i said, i was lazy in including SotAO as a class feature, and i really should at some point do the work to even the field between paladin spells for mine

Edit: Really, i only ever considered SotAO for haste and Celerity.

Deafening Clang is Paladin-exclusive. It's also innately swift, so no need for Battle Blessing on that one. Likewise for Strength of Stone. Both are very nice spells to have, though much better if you find them as wands (or, in the rare case, if you build them as wands).

Silverbeard and Shield of Warding doesn't stack, if using the Spell Compendium versions. Both Silverbeard and Shield of Warding offer sacred bonuses to AC, which means they overlap: by the time Shield of Warding offers a +2 sacred bonus, it eclipses the effect of Silverbeard.

Also: if you really considered SotAO for Haste and Celerity, you've missed on the wealth of spells you can acquire by those means. Enlarge Person is a formidable spell, particularly more since you innately don't get Righteous Might (it's one of the main additions of 'brewers when altering spell lists). Glitterdust/Stinking Cloud/Web remain useful at high levels, and so does Evard's Black Tentacles (it's a 4th level spell), particularly if you increase the Paladin's CL. However, it's best to keep it as an option than add it innately, because it's harder for Paladins to exploit it as the Mystic Ranger does, and further pushes for a "Mystic Paladin" variant which is one of the most common fixes around.

[toapat]

Also: if you really considered SotAO for Haste and Celerity, you've missed on the wealth of spells you can acquire by those means. Enlarge Person is a formidable spell, particularly more since you innately don't get Righteous Might (it's one of the main additions of 'brewers when altering spell lists). Glitterdust/Stinking Cloud/Web remain useful at high levels, and so does Evard's Black Tentacles (it's a 4th level spell), particularly if you increase the Paladin's CL. However, it's best to keep it as an option than add it innately, because it's harder for Paladins to exploit it as the Mystic Ranger does, and further pushes for a "Mystic Paladin" variant which is one of the most common fixes around.

1: Fair enough

2: I was using a website we cant link to for references, the version of both those spells on there are non-conflicting, as i said, probably looking at different versions. which i guess we were.

3: personal bias, yes i knew about some of the other buffs. I think save or Sucks really fall outside of the realm of realistic application of paladin spells.

[T.G. Oskar]

Just so you know, being the project to which I've devoted most of my effort, I still produce a lot for it, even when I'm working on other projects.

Take this, for example. I've been going through an extensive review of all SRD Magic items (including those from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, even if they overlap with the Magic Item Compendium, but no magic items from the MIC proper), and I'm right at the rings (after dealing with the weapons, armor, shields, and most of the clothing-based wondrous items, including placing Ioun Stones separately). The Ring of Friend Shield was kind of weird: it was sold in pairs, and the whole effort was to allow two people to cast Shield Other on themselves. The benefits include no limit on duration and range, which is phenomenal, but they felt...bland. They were one of the items that were extensively retooled, and that ring became this little baby (as usual, MIC format):

RING OF THE BODYGUARD
Price (Item Level): 40,000 gp (17th)
Body Slot: Ring
Caster Level: 10th
Aura: Moderate (DC 20); abjuration
Activation: -- and standard (command)
Weight: --
This thick platinum band has protective glyphs around the edges, which spell the phrase “united, we stand undying”. A red ruby and some small diamonds among the rim seem lifeless, but shine in presence of certain rings.
The ring of the bodyguard, on its own, provides no protection and may seem even useless. However, in the presence of other rings of the bodyguard (or a ring enchanted with the shield other spell), its gems shine, resonating with the spell’s power. To unlock its powers, the wearer of a ring of the bodyguard must attune with another, generally by having the rings in close contact (usually for 24 hours, in a bag). Once a ring is attuned, it remains attuned to all other rings until the same ritual is made. Removing a ring’s attunement requires having the ring be unworn for at least 24 hours, upon which the contact with all other rings are lost; if the ring is worn by a dead creature, it is treated as unworn for this same purpose.

Once attuned, the wearer of a ring of the bodyguard gains a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus to saving throws; these effects are always active until the ring is no longer attuned. Furthermore, as a standard action, the wearer of a ring of the bodyguard may choose to take half of the damage of another creature wearing a ring attuned to the wearer’s own, as per the shield other spell but with no effect on its duration and with no limit on range (so as long as they’re on the same plane). This effect can be activated or deactivated as an immediate action if one of the attuned ringwearer’s hit points fall under half of its maximum amount. Once this ability is active, other wearers of attuned rings cannot affect the wearer or its warden.

This ring, if used as a focus for the shield other or glory of the martyr (BoED; also, see above), provides greater properties. The wearer’s bonus on deflection and resistance bonuses increases by 1 for each character beside itself under the effect of these spells, and the wearer may choose to absorb all the damage from the attack, instead of merely half the damage. If two or more rings of the bodyguard are attuned by these means, the wearer can use any healing effect with a range of touch on any creature, regardless of its range (so as long as they’re on the same plane).

Special: Because of its affinity towards protection, attempting to improve the ring's deflection bonus to AC or resistance bonus to saving throws costs only half the usual fee (in both gold and experience). Thus, improving the deflection bonus to AC of the ring of the bodyguard from a +1 to a +2 would cost 3,000 gp (if done by an NPC crafter; if done by the wearer or a PC crafter, the cost is instead 1,500 gp) instead of 6,000 gp (the difference between 2,000 gp and 8,000 gp).

Note: if the wearer is a paladin using the Project Heretica variant, the ring of the bodyguard gains a further benefit so as long as the wearer projects an aura of devotion or aura of retribution. If the wearer projects an aura of devotion, the wearer absorbs an amount of damage equal to half the damage taken by the warded creature plus the amount normally absorbed by its aura of devotion, regardless of the distance, when the wearer activates the ring’s shield other ability. If the wearer projects an aura of retribution, the warded creature is treated as the wearer for purposes of activating the retributive effect, regardless of the distance (in effect, the warded creature is treated as if projecting an aura of retribution, as if it were the wearer). This effect also works with the justiciar’s interdiction and retribution sanctions, applying the effects of the auras of devotion and retribution, respectively.

Prerequisites: Forge Ring; shield other or the aura of devotion class feature
Cost to Create: 20,000 gp, 1600 xp

Spoiler

Show

As you can see, it provides the same effect of a ring of force shield, except that you get a permanent deflection bonus to AC and resistance bonus to saving throws if the ring's attuned (thus, you can save the shoulder and torso slots for other things). The Shield Other effect was left pretty much as-is, with no changes whatsoever; however, I decided to allow the rings to be used as the focus for the actual Shield Other (or Glory of the Martyr) spells, this further improving the bonus. The effect may not seem that much when dealing with, say, the improved versions of Shield Other I placed above, but it works wonders with the basic Shield Other spell. With attuned rings, the effect becomes even better, because it makes healing useful; a cleric can heal a paladin taking damage for it from a mile away, without problems.

There's another slight spoiler up there, and that's the affinity-based reductions. As you can see, the ring of the bodyguard has a strong affinity to protection spells, so improving their deflection or resistance bonuses becomes much, much easier, because the cost is essentially halved. Thus, you can make the ring provide a +5 deflection bonus to AC and a +5 resistance bonus to all saving throws for less cost that it would take to equip a ring of protection and a cloak of resistance of the same kind.

Because of the many improvements, the cost is more than one-and-a-half times higher than a base ring of friend shield, but because those were always sold (or found) in pairs, that means they get somewhat less expensive than the normal ones. I gauged the cost by determining the base cost of a permanent command-based item (level 2 spell x CL 10th x 1,800 gp), added half the cost of +1 deflection bonus to AC (1,000 gp) and +1 resistance bonus to all saves (+500 gp), and the rest was just to drive it into a nice multiple of 10, if we divided by a 1000 first. As it stands, it won't appear until much, MUCH later in the game, but when it does, you'll make sure to boost it and give it to all your allies, hopefully.

Oh yeah, and...of course, Paladins and Justiciars gain some serious benefit from it, mostly from their auras. Mostly the reason I posted it here.

So: questions? Comments? Better, or worse? The Price is Right, something Bunko would definitely recommend, or way too expensive for what it provides? Personally, I find the crafting rules in the DMG a bit too heavy-handed, and definitely not to my liking: I personally hate the idea that only spellcasters are allowed to create magic items, that dwarves can't do so unless they're a specific race (Midgard Dwarf) or part of a specific PrC (Ironsoul Forgemaster), and that even then, when you have a way to access Craft Magic Arms and Armor or a similar trait, you STILL have to depend on a spellcaster to enchant it. The residuum thing from 4e was nice, but it was digested so much that it makes no sense; why not, say, make it so that you got stuff like, say, animal fangs, or the blood of a fiend, and apply the residuum abstraction to that fluff as part of your treasure allotment? It could even replace XP when crafting, though not exactly gold, and it would allow anyone to craft. Then again, with the way professions are handled in D&D...