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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    So... let's say I'm playing a Wu Jen, right? I've got the spell giant size, which (unless I'm wrong, which I very well could be) allows me to become Colossal-sized. What happens if my character is swallowed whole (by, let's say, a Purple Worm, which is gargantuan) and I cast this spell on myself, what are the consequences of such a thing? Does it do damage to the worm? Am I free from his nasty, acidic stomach? Is he still gnawing on an arm or a leg or something? How would you guys rule this?
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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Enlarging spells typically fail if your expansion is constrained by physical barriers.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    So, if anything, I think that you're taking more damage.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Spells that increase size all specify that, if one cannot expand past a certain point, your expansion halts there.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    The right spell to cast when swallowed by something is Prismatic Sphere--as witness this tale.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieOC
    So... let's say I'm playing a Wu Jen, right? I've got the spell giant size, which (unless I'm wrong, which I very well could be) allows me to become Colossal-sized. What happens if my character is swallowed whole (by, let's say, a Purple Worm, which is gargantuan) and I cast this spell on myself, what are the consequences of such a thing? Does it do damage to the worm? Am I free from his nasty, acidic stomach? Is he still gnawing on an arm or a leg or something? How would you guys rule this?
    I'd rule it according to the rules.
    If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing itó the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size.
    So, whats the break DC on a Purple Worm?
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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by The Logic Ninja
    The right spell to cast when swallowed by something is Prismatic Sphere--as witness this tale.
    That's the best ever. Forget giant size.
    -Robbie

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by NEO|Phyte, Keeper of IRC
    I'd rule it according to the rules.
    So, whats the break DC on a Purple Worm?
    Living creature = break DC of unable to be made
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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by NEO|Phyte, Keeper of IRC
    So, whats the break DC on a Purple Worm?
    How about strenth score? That'd be 35. It's only 16HD and CR12 so that's not unreasonable.


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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrael
    How about strenth score? That'd be 35. It's only 16HD and CR12 so that's not unreasonable.
    THIS IS A BAD PRECEDENT TO SET. No break DCs for creatures. No break DCs equal to their Strength scores. Especially NO destructive raging frenzied berserkers winning encounters with a Strength check!
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    'Psionics' is just tapping into the core of magic within yourself, whereas the mumbo-jumbo dancing, gibbering, and flinging around esoteric material components is like trying to paint-by-numbers when the guy next to you is rendering works from Picasso by memory alone.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    It was said mostly in jest.

    But, on the offhand that your frenzied strength monkey fighter manages to get himself ingested, figures out how to cast Giant Size all of a sudden, increases his total STR score to 60 (+25, needs to roll a 10) and then busts his way out again, I'd give him the XP.

    'Cause that's pretty hard for a CR12 PC to do.

    A more reasonable approach is to say the STR check that the rules legitimately give you would automatically fail if made inside a living being.


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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    The downside to setting a break DC is it doesnt have to be made inside the critter. And you dont have to be expanding to make it.

    "I run up to the guy, frenzy, and with my 26 str, I only have to roll a 5 to break him in half!"

    I mean... you could snap commoners in half all day if they had a break DC == strength.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    ...as opposed to being able to cut them in half all day even as a level 2 fighter?

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigeld2
    "I run up to the guy, frenzy, and with my 26 str, I only have to roll a 5 to break him in half!"

    I mean... you could snap commoners in half all day if they had a break DC == strength.
    On the first point: It would probably be a lot harder than that. Even if you were strong enough to rip a conscious, fighting opponent in half, it would require more than just making a strength check; probably a grapple and then some, unless there were unusual circumstances, i.e. being swallowed.

    On the second point, I absolutely agree with you: commoner=10 str, which means commoners could rip each other apart...literally, with more than a 50% success chance. I'm not necessarily against a break DC for creatures, gruesome though it may be, but DC=Str is unacceptable.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    This has brought up a question that keeps reoccuring, since wizards set no standard at the force that enlarging spells make you grow. And having creatures be unbreakable is ridiculous, adamantine has a break DC, I'm quite sure that most of us have exeeded the break DC on one of your bones at some point in our life. Its not easy, but it can be done if you expand forcefully enough. I'd allow it, but I just like seeing worm guts all over the players.
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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by ishi

    On the first point: It would probably be a lot harder than that. Even if you were strong enough to rip a conscious, fighting opponent in half, it would require more than just making a strength check; probably a grapple and then some, unless there were unusual circumstances, i.e. being swallowed.

    On the second point, I absolutely agree with you: commoner=10 str, which means commoners could rip each other apart...literally, with more than a 50% success chance. I'm not necessarily against a break DC for creatures, gruesome though it may be, but DC=Str is unacceptable.
    The worst part is how it changes the dynamics of battles. High CR enemies wouldnt need to be attacked, you could just send a wave of commoners after them until oe rolled a 20 beating the creatures str score and ripping it in half.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    If all it takes is a str check, you don't even have to worry about your BAB.

    This would also make pretty much make all non-fighter types super fragile at high levels. Or any level, for that matter. As long as your strength is below 20 or below, anything with a strength of ten has at least a 5% chance to break you.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    how about str plus con.... and no insta-win on nat 20 that should make it less horrible...

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    As it was said somewhere, do not add rules only for realism's sake or modify rules that already work fine to make them more realistic.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Holy crap folks. No one is really suggesting that you should be able to just STR-check break an enemy to win combat. Jeebus.

    A more reasonable approach is to say the STR check that the rules legitimately give you would automatically fail if made inside a living being.
    And I still that that as a level 12 character if someone...

    manages to get himself ingested, figures out how to cast Giant Size all of a sudden, increases his total STR score to 60 (+25, needs to roll a 10) and then busts his way out again
    ...that he gets the A for effort. That's WAAAY harder to actually accomplish than cutting our for 25pts of damage.


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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Oh ****, Thread Necromancy by accident. Sorry everyone. >_<
    Last edited by Eldritch_Ent; 2008-08-29 at 03:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojotech View Post
    Oh ****, Thread Necromancy by accident. Sorry everyone. >_<
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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    You know, I've always thought that the Wu Jen was such a wasted opportunity. Giant Size is the perfect example - a spell that turns you Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal (depending on your caster level) is ridiculously useful. Except that its a 7th level spell, with a Personal range, for a class with d4 hit die. Cool idea, cruddy execution.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrael View Post
    Holy crap folks. No one is really suggesting that you should be able to just STR-check break an enemy to win combat. Jeebus.


    And I still that that as a level 12 character if someone...


    ...that he gets the A for effort. That's WAAAY harder to actually accomplish than cutting our for 25pts of damage.
    Well since it's been Necroed, I can get a +22 mod to Break checks at level 1. I could make an ECL 7 Goliath who would break Purple Worms in half on a one. So in fact, this would make all melee monsters a joke.

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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    I'd say let them make a new grapple check to get back up to the monsters mouth, or out completely if they're to big to be grappled. Normally you can't grapple your way out of a swallow whole unless the entry says so, but this is a special case, where the PC is potentially becoming to large to fit inside. Since there is a way out, back out of the mouth, the PC does have room to expand, unless the creature can prevent it by holding it's mouth closed, hence, opposed grapple checks, using the size the PC will become if he hits full size.

    Incidentally, that does seem to be the limit of force with which a creature expands: the amount of force they can apply at full size when they're done expanding. I guess that means that the spell doesn't apply any force from growth at all, since the creature is only using it's new strength, unless you count the fact that they're not at full size yet, and consider the rest of the bonus to be from the force of the spell.

    Wouldn't it be pretty hard to cast inside a purple worm? Taking continual damage and you're considered grappled to boot. In any case, even if you can't reach full size, you can at least use new strength from the size you can reach to deal more damage to the gut and cut your way out.
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    Default Re: Wu Jen, Purple Worms and Giant Size

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezina View Post
    Living creature = break DC of unable to be made
    I think Alphonse @ 0:17 would beg to disagree with that statement.

    Anyways, given that for many creatures capable of swallowing creatures whole they list a stomach capacity, growing to the maximum capacity (and then some) would lead to a killer case of indigestion for the poor sod. For fun, I'd impose a circumstance penalty on the creature for the discomfort ie, free "aid another" actions from the one inside for being lateral about the situation.
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