Concerns about a potentially campaign-ending player plan.

[Telasi]

I am concerned about a situation in my campaign. My players, a group of my personal friends, have formulated a plan that could potentially end the campaign far ahead of schedule. When I say "end the campaign," I mean that it could easily result in one or more of the following: the deaths of the entire party but one, the death of a BBEG, the complete destruction of a pocket plane, and significant damage to a region of the Prime Material.

Allow me to provide specific context. Every weekend, I GM a Pathfinder/3.5 game for a group of my friends. In the normal course of this game, the players have come into contact with a powerful mage, who they have reason to suspect is a major threat to the world. This mage, Kiravahn, is their current employer. The party was hired to recover a cache of magic items on the Elemental Plane of Earth, with a particular staff being Kiravahn's main concern. During the course of that adventure, they discovered that the staff in question is, in fact, a world-specific greater artifact version of a Staff of the Magi called Caelinor's Staff. They are unaware of the properties of Caelinor's Staff beyond those of a normal Staff of the Magi. They also discovered that the cache holding the staff is guarded by a young crystal dragon and made peaceful contact with him.

Since that session, I have been approached by several of the players asking questions about various aspects of a plan they devised, apparently based on their best-case scenario for using the retributive strike function of Caelinor's Staff to assassinate Kiravahn. Though I was not given the details of the plan, I answered the questions they could reasonably have known the answers to in-character and warned them of several potential hazards involved in their plan.

I believe that my players intend to carry out their plan in spite of my warnings. If they do, there is a strong possibility that all their characters except one (who is separated from the rest) will die for one of several reasons. For my part, I currently intend to play out the plan and its results honestly, regardless of the outcome. I predict that the result will be a TPK, either in the destruction of the artifact or from Kiravahn's retribution if he survives (which is possible, but not guaranteed). The current situation in the world means that such an event would effectively end the campaign in a PC defeat, albeit an impressive one.

Given the information above, I am concerned that I may be being too harsh. The plan counts on the best-case guess of Kiravahn's stats being accurate to succeed, in conjunction with other questionable assumptions based on the information they have been presented. Unfortunately, all of the information I have heard from them indicates that their assumptions vary from slightly to grossly inaccurate, which is why I chose to explicitly warn them of the potential repercussions. That said, I would like to hear some opinions and analysis to advise my decisions.

Finally, to anyone among my players who reads this post, shame on you.

[dsmiles]

Let 'em go. That's the best part of the game, when players come up with some off the wall **** to save the day. I'd love it if my players pulled that out of their collective behind.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'd say drop one last hint that they may not be correct about his stats, then continue as you are. Dealing with the repercussions of this might be a nice starting hook for your next campaign!

Finally, to anyone among my players who reads this post, shame on you.

This is something you usually put at the beginning of a post. Before they've already read it

[Gamer Girl]

I don't see how this is game ending.


So the players want to trick the great mage into dropping his guard and getting killed? Ok...normal enough. Not a big deal.

Random thoughts:

1.If Kiravahn has an intelligence over 5 or so, he will be ready. This is what smart people do. For example, a smart person would never walk into a room of potential armed enemies, even if said enemies worked for them. For example, the average cop, FBI agent or solder can not just walk up to the president armed(or even more so with say a nuclear bomb they found). That just does not happen.

2.There is no reason Kir can't send a servant to get the staff. Just in case. He can even take the step of ploymorphing or using and illusion on a servant so they look like Kir. Not to mention projected image or even magic jar.

3.Kir could always have an active anti-magic field up...looks kind of obvious, right?

4.Don't forget the classic bad guy move: innocents. Kir shows up with a bunch of 'human shields'. Even worse if it's someone the characters know/care about.

5.Even if Kir puts on his dumb hat for the day and gets blown up....well, death is not so permanent for your average typical powerful wizard. Clone, resurrection, wish......


More Thoughts:

1.So this special staff can blow up a planet and/or a plane. That's a bit powerful. Maybe the bast won't be 'that' destructive. Maybe it's mostly hype. A staff that destroys a city or even a country might be powerful enough.

2.If the retributive strike is so special and powerful...maybe it takes more then 'just' breaking the staff to trigger it. Would you walk around with a billion mega ton nuke that had a 'Big Red Button' that said 'push me to die'?

3.Maybe the special retributive strike does not do pure damage. It's special right? Maybe it drains all magic. Maybe to teleports everything to the Abyss..or the Demiplane of Imprisonment.

[Amnestic]

If they want to break the staff, do it. They will go out in a blaze of glory quite literally like no other.

Sure it'll mean your campaign is somewhat screwed (which sucks for you depending on how much work you've already done), but it also means that they will always remember the ending that they chose.

[Marnath]

If it's a homebrewed version of the artifact, why even allow it to make a retributive strike?

[Tyndmyr]

I'd say drop one last hint that they may not be correct about his stats, then continue as you are. Dealing with the repercussions of this might be a nice starting hook for your next campaign!

Pretty much.

You've given them the obligatory warning when they're about to do something incredibly risky. But, yknow, players often don't listen. Play it straight and see what happens. At a minimum, they'll go out with a bang, and it'll be an ending to remember, win or lose.

[Knaight]

I'm all for this. It ends the campaign in what is likely a Pyrrhic victory, and is at a shallower level completely awesome. This sort of stuff is memorable, and there is no reason to restrict it just because it goes against the plan.

[Kylarra]

I find the death of everything in a retributive strike to be awesome.

[Sydonai]

Warn them outright that their plan has a high-chance of TPK. If they decide to go through with the plan anyway then smash them that much harder, they would literally be asking for it at that point.

[Telasi]

Lots of responses saying to go ahead with it. Sounds like my players aren't the only ones thinking that a worst case of going out with a bang isn't so bad.

I should probably clarify some things, though. First, Caelinor's Staff is meant to be used for a retributive strike; the maker used it as a safeguard to make assassinating him dangerous, since he could destroy a city in revenge. Essentially, a magical mutually assured destruction deterrent. He also had a secondary means of activating the strike through a ritual, but that was lost to history when he died. The ritual use was to be significant later in the campaign.

Second, I'm okay with them killing Kiravahn. Throughout this campaign, I've been trying to get the players to be self-motivated and rewarded clever plans, and this qualifies on both counts. My concern was more about the fairness of letting them kill themselves using an artifact without knowing the full consequences of that decision in-character.

In general, it seems that my original reaction is the one shared by the majority of the responding posters here. To be honest, it is an awesome way to end the game. Thank you for your responses.

[dsmiles]

I'm all for this. It ends the campaign in what is likely a Pyrrhic victory, and is at a shallower level completely awesome. This sort of stuff is memorable, and there is no reason to restrict it just because it goes against the plan.

Exactly. Plans only last until the first shot is fired.

[Amnestic]

Exactly. Plans only last until the first shot is fired.

When creative players are involved, you're lucky if they last that long

[Nero24200]

I say let them do it.

If you let them they may fail, it may end the campaign, but it also shows just how much freedom their characters have in that they can attempt such world-shifting events (even if they fail those attempts). Keep any consequences their actions might have - If they fail it could even set up for another campaign where another party attempt to clean up the mess of the previous campaign.

If you don't let them on the other hand it comes across as rail-roady "This villan can't be killed until the DM says it's the end of the campaign" even if it's not the case.

Besides, a campaign ending isn't always bad. All campaigns have to end eventually - it's just a matter of them ending in a good way (defeating the BBEG or having a suitable heroic sacrifice etc) or ending in a bad way.

[TheStranger]

If you're feeling really mean, and if the retributive strike kills all the PCs, don't tell them whether they succeeded in killing Kir as well. Just tell them they see him recoil, then there was a roar of light, sound and pain, then there was nothingness. Then see if they want to roll up new characters with no connection to the old ones and go try to figure out why there was an explosion that took out a good chunk of a continent. If they learn that Kir survived, you can pick up the plot from there. If they learn that they successfully killed him, you can tie that event into a new campaign. Either way, making them find out in-game whether their plan worked makes it even more epic, if they have the patience to do it that way.

[Analytica]

If they die, let them become Vestiges available in the sequel.

[dsmiles]

If they die, let them become Vestiges available in the sequel.

Especially if they win.

[Telasi]

If they die, let them become Vestiges available in the sequel.

Actually, that's a good idea. One of my players is fond of Binders (the one who came up with this plan, ironically).

[Dr Bwaa]

I agree with everyone else. I mean, if your players are planning a retributive strike of some kind anyway, they've got to know how dangerous that is to the party (50% chance on a normal SotM to kill the breaker, too, right?)--and they also know that they're planning to destroy an artifact, which has its own inherent issues to compound with that. I say let 'em go for it. It will be a session everyone remembers.

[Shyftir]

Or perhaps turn the BBEG into the vestige if he dies. Also you could have the blast have some kind of permanent affect on the BBEG even if he does survive so that if they find themselves playing new characters going after him, they don't feel like the other characters died for nothing.

[Hat-Trick]

Or perhaps turn the BBEG into the vestige if he dies. Also you could have the blast have some kind of permanent affect on the BBEG even if he does survive so that if they find themselves playing new characters going after him, they don't feel like the other characters died for nothing.

Phobia: intense fear of snapping noises?

[Quietus]

I'll chime in with everyone else - let the players go through with their plan, and give them the end result they earn through it. If your BBEG dies, that's fine. If all the characters die, that's fine too. If one is left standing, he has to deal with the fact that his friends all just sacrificed themselves, and an entire city, to end the threat presented by this one apparently very scary individual. All that's left is a crater, but the bad guy, and a number of people he cared very deeply for, are gone. Fade to black.

[Stegyre]

I don't know that the plan has much hope of success without the players overcoming two logical defenses that any high level wizard should have in place:

1. A contingency to get himself completely out of the area, instantaneously. (I am thinking Contingency (Teleport) trigger: "when I want" or perhaps "when death is imminent.")

2. Your Daily Dose of Divination: Foresight or Moment of Prescience will help him survive this (or any) assaults, while Scrying or Detect Thoughts may alert him to the PCs' plans.

These thoughts don't even take into consideration the possibility that he already has a clone or that his "personal" interactions with the PCs are not all by simulacrum (far more trustworthy than casting a glamer over some minion).

Your PCs should probably be doing a lot of scrying and divination themselves to learn more about their target. These and other defenses can be countered, but it should never be nearly so easy as, "I walk into the throne room and activate my nuclear holocaust."

IMHO, YMMV.

[Mewtarthio]

Your PCs should probably be doing a lot of scrying and divination themselves to learn more about their target. These and other defenses can be countered, but it should never be nearly so easy as, "I walk into the throne room and activate my nuclear holocaust."

IMHO, YMMV.

If the players sacrifice the entire party, saying "But he figured you'd do that, so you really died for nothing!" is kind of a jerkish thing to do, regardless of how realistic it is. Besides, what are the odds that this guy expects anyone to pull a trick like that on him? Nuclear holocaust is a deterrent, not Plan A. The BBEG should not expect that the PCs hate him so much they'll destroy themselves if it means taking him down in the process.

[Ranos]

It seems like they're not expecting the thing to blow up half the plane. Maybe if they did, they would change their plans. Drop obvious clues as to the staff's exact function when they reach the cache of items. Then, once they know what the staff is for, let them make an informed choice. If they still go ahead with it, so be it.

[Telasi]

The players have been warned that the staff is an artifact and that it will cause a significantly larger blast than normal for a staff of the magi. It's not exactly a plane-shattering artifact, but it will take out a decent chunk of countryside. Even a weakened Apocalypse from the Sky like the staff's secondary detonation effect is not generally taken lightly.

To be fair, recent conversation has indicated the players are also going to try to escape the blast radius by unspecified means. Since they can't teleport, that will take some doing, but staying in the blast is the last resort option.

Using divinations is not an option for either the PCs or Kiravahn. The players simply don't have them, and I've specifically promised that I won't abuse divinations in the manner suggested here. Simple, long-duration buffs are a given, but largely irrelevant to the functioning of the PC plan. The PCs just aren't powerful enough that Kiravahn considers them a real threat.

In any case, I'm looking forward to the session Sunday. I'm very interested to see how they plan to pull it off. I expect the results to be spectacular regardless of the outcome.

[Kyberwulf]

lol "Nuclear holocaust is a deterrent, not Plan A." You never met my Players. >.> <.< >.>

[Blood_caller]

for my players "Nuclear holocaust" is the Instinctive aktion... let us hear how it goes, always likes a good boom

[nedz]

I'd say let them have their moment, they may even suprise you and survive
You might want to throw in a Are you sure ?, but thats a question of your style.
If there is one PC who is likely to survive anyway: can't he just ressurect/reincarnate them?

[Talakeal]

I would step out from behind the screen for a moment and tell them that if they go on with their plan they will not be happy. I would then explain to them that you are going to play the game straight as you have designed it, and that they shouldn't blame you if things do not go as they hope.