Multiple Weapons of Legacy?

[NineThePuma]

Hey, is it possible to have more than one 'Weapon of Legacy' on the same character? Or am I missing something important about them.

I freely admit, I haven't seen the book in a while, so me being forgetful is hilariously possible.

[Cog]

From the Least Legacy feat: "Choose one item of legacy..."

Taking the feat allows you one item. The feat has no clause about benefiting from taking it multiple times, so you're stuck with just the one.

[Aharon]

From the introductory section:
Each legacy feat is specific to the particular item whose connected ritual the wielder performs. For instance, if Aedwar completes the ritual of Sanctification of Darkness associated with his legacy weapon, Exordius, he gains the Least Legacy (Exordius) feat. From now on, he can use the weapon’s least abilities (assuming he has attained a high enough level), but only when wielding Exordius. If he were to wield another item of legacy, the Least Legacy (Exordius) feat wouldn’t allow him to use that item’s least abilities—he’d first have to research the new weapon’s history and perform its specific legacy rituals.

So the feats are item-specific, and can be taken multiple times.

[Runestar]

I think the bigger problem is their penalties stacking, so you may end up with your attack bonus much lower with them!

[Aharon]

The elegant way to avoid this would be founding your legacies yourself (DM permission assumed). Say you are a Gish: You could make one legacy item with the penalties from the warrior tables, and one with the penalties from the caster tables. Combining those, you lose some stuff from both sides, but a well-constructed legacy item is actually worth that. The written examples are bad barring a few examples. Digging through the menu choices yields some ok-ish abilities. I.e., make both items intelligent and give them SLAs, for getting more actions per round.

But even founding one legacy requires a DM who likes the Legacy item system enough to read into it, for getting him to allow you to found two, you require a DM who really, really loves the system.

[Cog]

So the feats are item-specific, and can be taken multiple times.

Perhaps that was the intent, but if so, they failed to express it in the proper format.

If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.

Unfortunately, the introduction doesn't make it clear that two items can be wielded simultaneously; it just says you'd have to do the research another time. If you perform the least ritual for Bloodcrier's Hammer and later find the bones of Li-Peng, already having the Least Legacy feat would give you no special abilities with the Bones; that's what the introduction is saying. You could then perform the ritual for the Bones instead, and gain a second copy of the Least Legacy feat. Without any references to simultaneous wielding, even in the introduction, learning that new version would unfortunately simply make the old version of the feat redundant. There is one benefit: if you somehow lost the feat for the Bones, the old feat would still be there, and you would immediately regain the use of the Hammer without having to perform the rituals again.

[Aharon]

@Coq
Due to the wording, I disagree. You don't gain the same feat more than once, you gain different feats with similar names: The feat is item-specific in a way that changes its name: you don't gain the Least Legacy feat, you gain the Least Legacy (Exordius) feat.
Least Legacy (Exordius) is a different feat from Least Legacy (Bones of Li-Peng), making them non-redundant and thus stacking.

[Cog]

Writing the feat as "Least Legacy (Exordius)" does not make the feat not Least Legacy any more than "Weapon Focus (Greatsword)" makes the feat not Weapon Focus. Weapon- and Item- specific feats are written with parenthetical comments simply so that when you're reading a stat block you don't have to guess what item it's intended to apply to. For example, Weapon Focus still has the text,

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

That's not just a reminder. Putting that comment under the Special header means it is a specific exception to the default. Without that statement, you could not benefit from Weapon Focus (Greatsword) and Weapon Focus (Dagger) at the same time.

(By the way, my handle is Cog, not Coq. There's a slightly different pronunciation. )

[Aharon]

Actually, the Special Line is exactly that - a reminder.
In the explanation of the format found in the PHB, it is detailed as

Special: Additional facts about the feat that may be helpful when
you decide whether to acquire the feat.

This implies to me that it is meant to contain helpful reminders, rules interactions that aren't immediately clear. Weapon Focus would work the way it does without the special line, as it derives its properties from the stacking rules.

Edit: I'm sorry, Cog. The way the name is underlined made the lower part of the g hard to distinguish at a glance. I was already wondering how your username escaped moderater notice

[Cog]

"Additional facts" does not limit the content to reminders. There are instances of feats where the Special information certainly is new; Improved Critical, Manyshot, Power Attack, and Toughness each give new material in their Special section. The general rule is that you may only benefit from a feat once, while the descriptions of Weapon Focus et al. say, "You can gain this feat multiple times," and not, "Treat this feat is a different feat when you take it for a different item." They are providing exceptions to the generally-stated rule.

[true_shinken]

"Additional facts" does not limit the content to reminders. There are instances of feats where the Special information certainly is new; Improved Critical, Manyshot, Power Attack, and Toughness each give new material in their Special section. The general rule is that you may only benefit from a feat once, while the descriptions of Weapon Focus et al. say, "You can gain this feat multiple times," and not, "Treat this feat is a different feat when you take it for a different item." They are providing exceptions to the generally-stated rule.

It's funny that you mention that. Least Legacy and it's cousins are special in that they don't need a feat slot to be taken... but that's not mentioned in a special heading.
You don't take this feats, you gain them as bonus feats when you perform the rituals. They're the core of my true dilettante build.

Also, page 9 lists an example of a character with a legacy weapon and says he would have to perform the rituals to use another legacy weapon. It can be done, plain and simple.

Also check Devious and Vicious, page 67, two legacy weapons that are supposed to be used together, complete with the statblock of a character that does use them together on page 71.

Defense rests.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think the bigger problem is their penalties stacking, so you may end up with your attack bonus much lower with them!

This. I have no idea why the penalties for a legacy weapon are so big.

[true_shinken]

This. I have no idea why the penalties for a legacy weapon are so big.

Because someone thought they were too powerful.
I just ignore the penalties altogether in my games.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because someone thought they were too powerful.
I just ignore the penalties altogether in my games.

Yeah, they're in no way too powerful. At 20th level, you're better off with a +5 keen flaming speed weapon then a weapon of legacy.

[Cog]

It's funny that you mention that. Least Legacy and it's cousins are special in that they don't need a feat slot to be taken... but that's not mentioned in a special heading.

That's right. It is, however, explained in the introduction. Double-wielding is not.

You don't take this feats, you gain them as bonus feats when you perform the rituals.

The general rule refers to "having" the feats, not "taking" them. That they are bonus feats is irrelevant.

Also, page 9 lists an example of a character with a legacy weapon and says he would have to perform the rituals to use another legacy weapon. It can be done, plain and simple.

Yep. I addressed that in post #6, second paragraph.

Also check Devious and Vicious, page 67, two legacy weapons that are supposed to be used together, complete with the statblock of a character that does use them together on page 71.

That is a very good argument for RAI; with that, it's obvious that they intended to allow dual-wielding, so the argument is academic. They still failed to follow through on the RAW, though.

[true_shinken]

That is a very good argument for RAI; with that, it's obvious that they intended to allow dual-wielding, so the argument is academic. They still failed to follow through on the RAW, though.

RAI is so clear here that I find any further discussion pointless. It's like saying monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes.

[NineThePuma]

RAI is so clear here that I find any further discussion pointless. It's like saying monks are not proficient with unarmed strikes.

... Why would they be proficient? (I jest.)

Alright, so basically, "No, there isn't, but the penalties might kill you."

[Claudius Maximus]

I think this could be solved with a little homebrew:

Oh God You're Serious [General]

Two Legacy Weapons. You just had to do it didn't you? Well now your mad interest in poorly executed subsystems has finally paid off.

Prerequisites: Least Legacy x2

Benefit: In each area in which penalties are assessed by your Legacies, you only suffer the worse of the two costs.

Normal: Your character cries.

Special: You also gain a +2 bonus to Truenaming checks, while we're at it.

[NineThePuma]

I am literally laughing. Not figuratively. That +2 to truenaming was what I wanted the whole time!

[Aharon]

Claudius, I'm so totally going to use that when I have the chance. You're a genius! Legacy Champion is about the only class that advances truenaming. And the bonus is even unnamed!