Rules for off the wall things players may try.

[Traab]

I was just wondering how things work for the dm in situations were the players will come up with the most insane thoughts and try to make them happen.

Odd stuff like, the party is talking to the king to get a quest. One of the players rolls for diplomacy to get the king to give them the treasury. Is there a set - to your roll for things like that? Or is that sort of thing generally left up to the dm to decide on a case by case basis?

Or say the party is in a fight and losing, suddenly one or more of the party decides they would rather try to join the bad guys and fight for them. Is there generally a rule set for deciding if the bad guy would accept?

[Kurald Galain]

Odd stuff like, the party is talking to the king to get a quest. One of the players rolls for diplomacy to get the king to give them the treasury. Is there a set - to your roll for things like that? Or is that sort of thing generally left up to the dm to decide on a case by case basis?

There is such a thing as automatic failure. If you're trying to jump to the moon, you're not going to accomplish that by rolling a 20. This is a similar example.

Or say the party is in a fight and losing, suddenly one or more of the party decides they would rather try to join the bad guys and fight for them. Is there generally a rule set for deciding if the bad guy would accept?

No, that's for the DM to decide. The appropriate answer may well be the Traitor's Reward.

[gurban]

In regards to the King and his treasury, Diplomacy and Intimidate, generally speaking, can't make somebody do something that is wholly against their nature. We'll use this example and show what I would do, in a very basic manner."
King to PCs "I've got a quest for you. Do it and I'll give you 500gp!"
PC wants to diplomacize the King, try to sweet talk some money out of him. OK, roll diplomacy.
1)Rolls middle, King says "I think the bounty is fair"
2) Rolls high, King says "You're right, that is low. Take this <insert magic item> or go down to magicmart and grab a new sword, just put it on my tab"
3)Rolls low, King says "500gp? Excuse me, I must have misspoken. I meant 400"

[MeeposFire]

You set a difficulty class for the roll. You will have to decide on your own how high of a DC this will take. How you decide is based on how likely you see this working out and secondarily on whether you actually want to let it work within reason.

For instance if one of my players asked the king to seriously give them all the money in the treasury via diplomacy I would have to decide on how strong willed the king is. Frankly unless the king has no sense at all (ie insane or perhaps an astoundingly low IQ) this should be extremely hard near impossible sort of check (in fact it could easily be impossible for this character at this time). Now you still allow the player to try but you assign a DC that makes sense which can be outrageously high (they do not get to know the DC so if you are certain he is not able to be convinced by diplomacy then you can just say they fail but they still get to roll). The DMG has some listed DCs for things that you want to have a reasonable chance at success. The most important thing to remember that if it is possible for a character to do something you should allow the check even if the result may be impossible (a player can try to jump a 100 foot high wall at 1st level and should be allowed to roll if he wants but he will fail since there is no way he can make the jump check and thats ok).

[Traab]

Ah ok, I understand now. In my first example, unless the king in question is written up as a spineless moron, or possibly bat&^% crazy, trying to make him do something that wouldnt happen no matter how smooth you are would end in an auto failure. However, if he is one or more of those three things, then there can be a roll with some level of dc on it depending on how close to impossible you think it should be.

[Tankadin]

Feel free to also use rich half-wit sons in case your party has a map to some buried treasure and needs to charter a ship.

Bonus points if the rich half-wit son talks to a small, invisible man that lives in his finger.

[MeeposFire]

Ah ok, I understand now. In my first example, unless the king in question is written up as a spineless moron, or possibly bat&^% crazy, trying to make him do something that wouldnt happen no matter how smooth you are would end in an auto failure. However, if he is one or more of those three things, then there can be a roll with some level of dc on it depending on how close to impossible you think it should be.

Yes though even if there is no chance you can still let the character roll. Just because there is no chance of success does not mean the player can't try anyway. Using Kurald Galain's example a character can try to jump the moon using their jump check-there is just no way it will actually succeed (but allowing them to roll allows you to adjudicate how well they did. In the jump example you will see how high he did jump in the king example a low diplomacy check might mean the king gets angry at the request while a high check might make the king laugh even if the character is serious as in he likes your moxie).

[Traab]

Feh, best bet to get the kings treasury anyways, is to get an important quest, "Retrieve my daughter and the royal sword of ultimate power!" then when you finish the quest tell him, "If you want to see either again, you will add a few zeroes to that reward you mentioned!" I bet the chance of a successful roll would be a hell of alot higher at that point. :p Just forget to inform the paladin of your plan, and make sure he stays behind when you go to meet the king. lol

[Mando Knight]

Feel free to also use rich half-wit sons in case your party has a map to some buried treasure and needs to charter a ship.

Bonus points if the rich half-wit son talks to a small, invisible man that lives in his finger.

And to hire Tim Curry as the ship's cook.

[Reluctance]

It's a 3.5 rule, but practically impossible tasks have a +20 modifier to the DC. Minimum. I see no problem porting it to 4e.

Look at it this way. By the time you're an epic enough con man to swindle the king out of the royal treasury, you could probably make more money by disenchanting one of your treasure parcels. Set the DC as appropriate for epic tricksters. Remind lower-level characters that they don't autosucceed on a 20.

And if you're going to try and renege on your deal or try and hold somebody for ransom, ask yourself what happened to the last person who tried that. Y'know, the person who you meted out justice to not that long ago. A slightly stronger, less greedy group of heroes might be in your future.

[MeeposFire]

Remind lower-level characters that they don't autosucceed on a 20.

One exception-a level 2 thief. They do auto double succeed at skill checks.

Though only in skill challenges.

[Traab]

It's a 3.5 rule, but practically impossible tasks have a +20 modifier to the DC. Minimum. I see no problem porting it to 4e.

Look at it this way. By the time you're an epic enough con man to swindle the king out of the royal treasury, you could probably make more money by disenchanting one of your treasure parcels. Set the DC as appropriate for epic tricksters. Remind lower-level characters that they don't autosucceed on a 20.

And if you're going to try and renege on your deal or try and hold somebody for ransom, ask yourself what happened to the last person who tried that. Y'know, the person who you meted out justice to not that long ago. A slightly stronger, less greedy group of heroes might be in your future.

True, but just think of how interesting the story of the campaign could become with THAT added wrinkle? The adventure party is off continuing the campaign however it runs, and behind the scenes the DM is arranging for an npc adventure party to be hired to track you down and kill you for the insult.

[The New Bruceski]

"You walk into my castle, with all of my guards, carrying the item I hired you to receive and you now want to demand more money? I have one word. Fire."

(phrasing should be adjusted if they are holding daughter instead of magical sword)

[Vknight]

No always have a plan.

Spoiler

Show

Flaming Sphere at the door to block passage. Coat the tiefling in straw and light on fire, then send down a path carrying oil that he drops on the ground from a sealed sack. Have the Bard strike at one Guard and the Fighter finish said guard. The King is now trapped in the thron room the only entrance guarded by a burning sphere a tiefling and his druid animal companion

Also heres my take let your players have fun, they do something crazy give an appropriate DC.
They want to jump to the moon make it DC:1000

They want to set a dead dwarf on fire and roll him down some stairs. Ok but they take damage handling a burning dwarf. And a skill check for the rolling

Also you could send a animal companion with a message informing the king he must accept a duel against the Fighter or they keep the item/daughter.
Kings wins he does not have to pay them. Fighter wins he gets the kingdom

Also the captain of the ship is a frog

[rayne_dragon]

I like to reward players for thinking outside the box. When someone does something unexpected I like to just roll with it and see where it goes to at least give the players a chance to do things the way they want to do things and maybe make an interesting story out of it. If their idea is really good I often try to throw some sort of reward their way, even if it isn't the reward they were looking for.

Of course, a lot of people have tried to do things like persuade the king to give them all his money by using the diplomacy skill. Lazy attempts at shortcuts like that aren't creative so they don't usually rate a reward, in my opinion, but at least still rate an interesting response - such as the one Meepos Fire suggested (diplomacy determining if the king is offender or plays it off as a joke).

[Oracle_Hunter]

As a rule: don't set DCs for Impossible Things

Tell the PC it's impossible and move on. Doing otherwise will ensure that they roll a natural 20 and screw up your campaign.

* * * *
More generally:

If a thing they are asking is difficult, but possible, use the level-appropriate Hard DC on DMG 42. If it's something which is difficult and takes a lot of time, set up an impromptu Skill Challenge (4/3 works well).

If the thing they are asking is doable, but something you never thought of, then use the level-appropriate Medium DC. Before having them roll, make sure you know what success and failure will entail and be prepared to narrate from there.

[MeeposFire]

Natural 20s are not auto succeed in skills (outside of the before mentioned thief in a skill challenge though in that case your results are predetermined due to the mechanics of skill challenges and any check you make that allows for success in skill challenges are "doable" so this problem should not come up).

[Erom]

I still agree, though, that setting impossibly high DCs for impossible tasks is bad form, and it's better to just tell players that what they are proposing is too difficult. It's not really metagaming - it's sort of the opposite. The character probably knows that the task is impossible due to common sense and living in this fictional world, while the player might not realize it since we view that world through the imperfect lens of a roleplaying game.

[Katana_Geldar]

No dice in the world will convince an NPC to do what he does not want to do.

[MeeposFire]

Well there are impossible things out there doe snot mean you have to say NO to letting somebody try. Yea you may not have a chance in the universe of convincing the king to give you money but a player may still attempt it since who knows it might be in character. Maybe the character is not wise enough to realize the problem. Dos not mean you have to say no though you might want to tell the player "I don't think it is going to work". People try to do impossible stuff all the time and fail. If they want to do something stupid or ridicules let them try. You might have a fun time from it.

Though if they ask "is this possible to do" and it is not it would make sense to be upfront and say "no I don't see it as possible".

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

DMG 42

This. Rule 42 is your friend.

Basically, page 42 in the DMG has all sorts of handy tables for quick skill check DCs by level. Use that when in doubt.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well there are impossible things out there doe snot mean you have to say NO to letting somebody try. Yea you may not have a chance in the universe of convincing the king to give you money but a player may still attempt it since who knows it might be in character. Maybe the character is not wise enough to realize the problem. Dos not mean you have to say no though you might want to tell the player "I don't think it is going to work". People try to do impossible stuff all the time and fail. If they want to do something stupid or ridicules let them try. You might have a fun time from it.

The important thing to remember is that, even though they are trying, they are not to roll any dice.

Rolling checks that it is impossible to make is bad form. If they ask to roll an impossible check, you just say "no, you can't succeed." Sure, if they want to ask the king for his treasury, they can - but they can't roll a Diplomacy check in the process.

[MeeposFire]

The important thing to remember is that, even though they are trying, they are not to roll any dice.

Rolling checks that it is impossible to make is bad form. If they ask to roll an impossible check, you just say "no, you can't succeed." Sure, if they want to ask the king for his treasury, they can - but they can't roll a Diplomacy check in the process.

And why not? Doing so allows you to adjudicate things based on how they did. For instance if you tried to to jump over the moon it helps to know how close he got since he may want to know or somehow it is relevant (such as it was a challenge by the shaman leader. If you jump impressively then you may influence the situation even though you did not make it to the moon). If you tried to convince the king it might be useful to know how charming you were. It could mean the difference between being slain for being rude and just being dismissed.

And there are a lot of people who just like to roll. If they want to let them.

[Katana_Geldar]

Asking the king for his treasury is not going to get you any favours from him if he's a reasonable king.

As for jumping over the moon, you can try but you'll never make it.

When a player proposes something unreasonable with a dice roll, I will tell them this. They can still roll, but unreasonable requests have consequences.

[MeeposFire]

For the king and his treasury if you roll low on your diplomacy you say something in a fashion that king perceives as very rude which will have bad consequences (and of course what would you expect in that situation). If you roll well the king does not take it so poorly. He may not give you something but he does not send you away immediately. Of course I tend to tell players when an action would appear to be impossible (partially so they can point out something I missed such as "you said the king secretly approves of initiative and bold statements in a previous encounter") but if they want to try regardless I won't stop them. I just let them have the consequences.

[Oracle_Hunter]

For the king and his treasury if you roll low on your diplomacy you say something in a fashion that king perceives as very rude which will have bad consequences (and of course what would you expect in that situation). If you roll well the king does not take it so poorly. He may not give you something but he does not send you away immediately. Of course I tend to tell players when an action would appear to be impossible (partially so they can point out something I missed such as "you said the king secretly approves of initiative and bold statements in a previous encounter") but if they want to try regardless I won't stop them. I just let them have the consequences.

The roll then just tells them how badly they lose. A waste of time, IMHO.

When the situation is "heads I win, tails you lose" then there is little point in forcing a die roll. If the Player just wants to roll for the hell of it, then by all means let them - but don't take it any more seriously than when a Player asks to roll to "win the game." When a Player makes a roll, they expect it to have some chance of success; having them roll when success by any measure is impossible is going to vex your Players when they catch on.

Besides, it's unnecessarily cruel to compound stupid decisions with the risk of Critical Failures. Like I said before - it's not the "wrong" way to run a game, but it's bad form.

[Gillric]

Ok, as this is in the 4e thread, I will point out there is no auto fail on a skill check....

[Kurald Galain]

Ok, as this is in the 4e thread, I will point out there is no auto fail on a skill check....

Sure there is. If a PC is trying to jump to the moon, or to convince the king to give him all of his treasure out of the blue, then that's an auto fail. It's most definitely not a level-appropriate DC with approx 30% chance for success if you're good at that skill.

[Gillric]

Besides, it's unnecessarily cruel to compound stupid decisions with the risk of Critical Failures. Like I said before - it's not the "wrong" way to run a game, but it's bad form.

What I meant was that you don't have "critical failures" in 4e. Ie, if the DC is manageable, you don't auto fail by rolling a 1. You add your modifier and see what the result is.

[mathemagician]

I might gently remind the players of the gravity of the situation, and offer them a skill challenge, which casts the event as an encounter, with clear tracks of failure / success. "Negotiating with the king and his advisors for something so grand is going to be set at a very high level skill challenge. The King is very busy, and will assuredly not appreciate wasting days of his time in petty negotiations. While you will (probably) not be executed for making a mockery of the king, at your level, this is the equivalent of you squaring off against an adult red dragon."