A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
You can get A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2 now at Gumroad
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 47
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location

    Default 1st level feat question

    ok starting in a new 1st level game this week, so far dm hasn't restricted any sources rest of the party is

    wizard
    fighter
    rogue
    eldarin ranger
    and cleric.


    as most editions of d&d have taught me, in this instance bard seems like the perfect next man in the group. so am preping a half elf bard,

    now my indescion somes between two feats, do I go strength of valor, for my feat or group insight to boost everyone elses init and insight checks
    Join the bard defense league


  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Group insight.

    Thats just my opinion though, not sage advice. If I remember correctly the bonus is based on one of your ability scores, make sure you have enough to make it worth while.
    Haggis is Sheep's stomach filled with its intestines.

    My blog "Awkward GM"

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Its just a flat +1 to allies
    Join the bard defense league


  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    I'd go with the Group Insight. Damage bonuses are relatively easy to come by, while initiative bonuses are much rarer.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Metro Manila, Philippines
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Between the two, Group Insight seems like the better choice. Personally, however, I think you'd be better served with a MC feat. That's just me, though.
    "You can never have enough dakka."

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    tcrudisi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Strength of Valor is a bad feat. Assuming you heal twice an encounter (your maximum for 15 levels), you contribute an extra +4 damage. That's assuming that your allies even hit. They could miss and lose the benefit. You also have a Cleric in the party. He might end up doing all the healing so you don't even use your heals in combat. That also detracts from the feat.

    Between the two, Group Insight is a much better feat.
    Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    alright next posit then.

    group insight wins it, but now for a buffer what 1st level feat would be ideal?
    Join the bard defense league


  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    tcrudisi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Noneoyabizzness View Post
    alright next posit then.

    group insight wins it, but now for a buffer what 1st level feat would be ideal?
    Well, what kind of bard are you? Cunning, Valorous, Prescient?

    For general feats, I'd take a look at Improved Majestic Word or one of the Expertise feats. However, there are some incredibly good specific Bard feats. I'm looking at Advantage of Cunning and Extended Prescience.
    Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    Strength of Valor is a bad feat. Assuming you heal twice an encounter (your maximum for 15 levels), you contribute an extra +4 damage. That's assuming that your allies even hit. They could miss and lose the benefit. You also have a Cleric in the party. He might end up doing all the healing so you don't even use your heals in combat. That also detracts from the feat.

    Between the two, Group Insight is a much better feat.
    Strength of Valor triggers off of the Virtue of Valor, not the Majestic Word. It can go off as often as once per round.

    I still say Group Insight is better, but Strength of Valor is an okay feat.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Going with valor.

    Improved word seems ok, but already putting up temp hp with valor.
    Join the bard defense league


  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    tcrudisi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Strength of Valor triggers off of the Virtue of Valor, not the Majestic Word. It can go off as often as once per round.

    I still say Group Insight is better, but Strength of Valor is an okay feat.
    You are correct. I mis-read it when I looked it up. In that case, it is okay. I still definitely prefer Group Insight (when only comparing those two).


    Quote Originally Posted by Noneoyabizzness View Post
    Going with valor.

    Improved word seems ok, but already putting up temp hp with valor.
    There's a huge difference. Virtue of Valor only lets you react with temp hp. Your ally bloodies or kills an enemy? You give him temp hp. It's very reactive. It's not something you have any control over. Improved Majestic Word is proactive: you are healing someone who already needs it. If they need those hp, chances are they are still in the fire (so to speak). Giving them temp hp is definitely a huge boon for them. Furthermore, there's no guarantee that they will be able to bloody or kill an enemy to get the temp hp from your virtue. One last point: even if they do manage to bloody or kill an enemy, there's a very good chance they have already lost the temp hp or that someone else activates your virtue anyway. Those temp hp (in the early levels, I'd say heroic tier) are amazingly good.
    Last edited by tcrudisi; 2011-04-11 at 11:35 AM.
    Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Noneoyabizzness View Post
    alright next posit then.

    group insight wins it, but now for a buffer what 1st level feat would be ideal?
    One thing to remember is that in 4th edition, feats are generally pretty small. Getting an "ideal" feat is not going to be very much better than getting an okay feat, and getting an okay feat isn't that much more powerful than getting a terrible feat. If it sounds fun, go for it; you can always retrain it later if it's not working out.

    With that said, here are some things that may be worth looking at, depending on exactly how you want to play it:

    Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise give you accuracy bonuses; these make your encounter powers more likely to hit, and most encounter powers only provide buffs if they hit.

    Multiclass feats are fairly potent, and bards can take multiclass feats for multiple classes. You could pick up a tiny bit of extra healing by multiclassing into warlord or cleric, or (once per encounter) an extra accuracy bonus by multiclassing fighter or avenger, or any of a number of other interesting options. Keep in mind that one of the nice things about multiclass feats is that they provide skill training; they do become less valuable if you are already trained in the skill or skills they provide or if skill use doesn't come up very often in your particular game.

    And, of course, class-specific feats are generally designed to make your class better at what it does. With bards being a buffing class, you can't go too far wrong grabbing bard feats. Just keep in mind that damage is generally easy to get(and therefore probably shouldn't be top priority if there are other options that seem appealing), and you'll be fine.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Daftendirekt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    WI
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    I'm at a loss why a feat that only gives +1 Insight and initiative is getting so much attention and praise. Initiative is only important the first round of combat, and a +1 bonus is going to do next to nothing anyway.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    +1 Initiative? Um . . . hell . . . maybe multiclass into Warlord twice for the Combat Leader feature and take the Combat Commander feat at paragon. Instant +CHA to initiative for everyone, and I believe Bard can pull it off because of Multiclass versatility (not sure at all though).

    Anyhow, for a L1 feat, I suggest an appropriate Expertise feat (Implement, Versatile, Weapon, HotFL improvements): if your attacks aren't connecting, you're not getting their effects.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Food for thought.

    Larger reason I thought to go with group over an expertise feat is to give more bonus over the group. But the debuff for vicious mockery happening more frequently might be more useful...
    Join the bard defense league


  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2011

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    I'm at a loss why a feat that only gives +1 Insight and initiative is getting so much attention and praise. Initiative is only important the first round of combat, and a +1 bonus is going to do next to nothing anyway.
    Well, it's being compared to +2 damage under certain conditions but no more than once per round. Neither of these are exactly game breakers.

    When the initiative helps, it really helps(especially for the rogue or wizard). Plus it scales with party size, unlike Strength of Valor, and this party is towards the large size of things.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Out of curiosity, what's your dilettante power?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Euphonistan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Eldritch strike is a good choice for a valor bard.

    I also like the half elf Knack for success power since it is leader based and it is very versatile.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    tcrudisi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    I'm at a loss why a feat that only gives +1 Insight and initiative is getting so much attention and praise. Initiative is only important the first round of combat, and a +1 bonus is going to do next to nothing anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Well, it's being compared to +2 damage under certain conditions but no more than once per round. Neither of these are exactly game breakers.

    When the initiative helps, it really helps(especially for the rogue or wizard). Plus it scales with party size, unlike Strength of Valor, and this party is towards the large size of things.
    What theNater said. Also: initiative is extremely important. If your entire party goes before the bad guys, that's basically a free round to knock a couple of them out. It's amazingly good. Is +1 great? Well, no, but it's a start. It's certainly better than +2 damage for one person every round. That extra +1 init might make the difference between all your allies going first in round 1. The extra +2 damage will rarely come into play round 1, barring action points. "I bloody/kill it with my standard action." "Okay, by the end of your next round, you get +2 damage on your next attack roll."

    Round 1 is the most important round of combat.
    Thank you Ceika for the wonderful Avatar avatar!

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinon View Post
    Out of curiosity, what's your dilettante power?
    Hadn't decided yet. Was thinking eyebite to keep chr
    based but knack for success seems promising.
    Join the bard defense league


  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    I'm at a loss why a feat that only gives +1 Insight and initiative is getting so much attention and praise.
    Indeed. It is a pretty bad feat - but of the two the OP suggested, it is less bad than the other one. I could easily recommend half a dozen better feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    That extra +1 init might make the difference between all your allies going first in round 1.
    Well, there's a lot of superlatives in that post, but "might" in this case means "95% of the time, it won't do anything". That means that you can play several sessions without even noticing this feat; and a feat that doesn't make a difference at least once every session is, in my opinion, a feat not worth taking.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Metro Manila, Philippines
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Why not take a Warlord MC? Resourceful gives a damage bonus OR some temp HP on an AP. Might come in handy, especially with the extra skill.
    "You can never have enough dakka."

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Noneoyabizzness View Post
    Hadn't decided yet. Was thinking eyebite to keep chr
    based but knack for success seems promising.
    One of the reasons I asked is because there's the feat, Combat Virtuoso, makes Cha the to-hit stat for your dilettante and any multiclass feats you take later.

    Multiclass feats also, often give you the ability to use a class's implements, which dilettante alone is sorely lacking.

    Food for thought.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Gah...

    So many options...

    I spent so much time getting books for the someday playing 4e and now that someday has come so much possible usefulness.
    Join the bard defense league


  25. - Top - End - #25
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Oct 2009

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Just pick what looks fun now. You're first level; it'll be fine.
    Last edited by Sinon; 2011-04-11 at 08:02 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    salt3d's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    GMT+10

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    The single most useful feat you can take at level 1 regardless of class is [whatever] Expertise. +1 to hit sounds boring but with so many effects triggered by actually hitting in the first place, it will come into play almost every round of combat.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by salt3d View Post
    The single most useful feat you can take at level 1 regardless of class is [whatever] Expertise. +1 to hit sounds boring but with so many effects triggered by actually hitting in the first place, it will come into play almost every round of combat.
    Sorry, but no, it won't. +1 to hit makes a difference exactly 5% of the time, so that means it comes up once every 20 attacks. Since you don't make anywhere near 20 attacks every round, that means it won't come up every round.

    That said, Expertise is a good feat to take, and certainly much better than Group Sight; but perhaps surprisingly, some feats are actually better than Expertise. The most common examples are Skill Power and Enlarge Spell.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Daftendirekt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    WI
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    You know, while Enlarge Spell is nice, it fails on the aspect of wizardry that 4e wizards really excel at: PURE control. My party's wizard took this, mostly because he KNEW it is a great feat. Except as he went for pure, awesome control, about 10% of his powers rolled damage, so the feat was almost completely wasted.

    I guess you could make a blaster, but sorcerer is more made for that, and would have to MC to get Enlarge Spell.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    Quote Originally Posted by Annulus View Post
    You know, while Enlarge Spell is nice, it fails on the aspect of wizardry that 4e wizards really excel at: PURE control. My party's wizard took this, mostly because he KNEW it is a great feat. Except as he went for pure, awesome control, about 10% of his powers rolled damage, so the feat was almost completely wasted.
    That's odd. There are many powers that control while also doing enough damage to be enlargeable; for example, Freezing Burst, Grasping Shadows, Color Spray, and Twist of Space.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Leolo's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 1st level feat question

    @Annulus: Nevertheless the expertise feats are just feats most of the characters should take as one of their feats. Not neccessary as the first feat. Or the second.

    There are enough feats that are strictly better than them for nearly every build. But they are also one few feats that are top10 feats for nearly every build, and thats why sooner or later every character will take one of them.

    (Technically even if only 10% of your powers would be affected this still could be more important than hitting additional 1 of 20 attempts, though.)

    And as Kurald has said: There are many powers that controlls and do damage.

    Also if you are a pure controller there might be still better feats.
    Last edited by Leolo; 2011-04-12 at 05:03 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •