How to get Players to Play with Dice?

[Sir]

I DM a freeform group regularly, and we usually have fun, but I think they would be more suited to DnD. We play a game based on DnD, with gp in a fantasy world and all that, so they know the tropes, thus that will not be a problem. The party consists of:

1. The "RPer". Usually plays some sort of barbarian, says he RPs but only ever plays as a personality copy of his real life self, and is the one to think up all the crazy plans. He actually likes DnD, so that won't be a problem.
2. The Evil guy. Overshadows almost everyone else with his combat scenes, usually plays slightly modified video game characters, but plays a damn good evil guy. Hates the thought of DnD after a night where I made them try 3.5 and they spent hours figuring out the rules.
3. The rogue. Overshadowed constantly, this guy doesn't really talk that much at all, and hides in the back always. I try to throw him bones for stuff that only he can do, and it works most of the time.
4. The Mage. Always plays a mage or archer, and.. doesn't really RP much. One of the smarter players, doesn't go along with the stupid plans if he can help it.

Anyway, onto the point; How can I convince them to play DnD? I love the game, and I think they might to, but they are... not the best at it. I once rolled up characters for them and had them play a session, but they spent the session in one random encounter with a gorrila. This may have been my fault as I wasn't the best DM, but since then they will refuse to try any sort of DnD.

On this next session in two days, I was going to make them play shadowrun, as I thought it was an campaign setting for 4E DnD (DAMN YOU ABREVIATIONS!), but then I found out its really complicated. Whoops.
So, I have turned to other ways of introducing concepts, but haven't found a good one. I was either going to use Risus, or just give them simplified 4E (DnD) characters that they re-fluff as wanted, but I have doubts. Risus seems best at the moment, but now I'm thinking they might do good to just try out a simpler version of DnD...

So I ask thy, playgrounder, whats the best way to get them to like DnD, or mostly the concept of Dice in general?

[Eldan]

Eh. Start by kicking out most of the rules, and don't do much combat. It's how I start new players. Explain (for 3.5):

The six attributes, the three saves, armor class, the attack roll, the damage roll, the skill check.

These are all the basics, and they are all fairly intuitive. Start at level one, give everyone a few class powers, explain them to them. Not in the rule terms, really, just in general. "Magic missile creates a force missile that always hits, but deals little damage".

Let them play around with just that a bit. Give them a few environmental challenges. Let them steal something from a house, as an example. They'll need climbing, sneaking, perception skills, lockpicking, a spell or two. Then send them in a simple combat against a weak enemy. Make it quick and simple.

Only add more complex rules if they ask for it. If someone says "Can I grab that guy instead of hitting him?" do a grapple check.

[John Campbell]

You might try a simpler and less rule-bound version, like AD&D.

[Volos]

Run the Sunless Citadel. First offical adventure published for 3.5 D&D. It is simple, easy to run, and fun for players. It is designed to give the DM and players a chance to learn almost everything about the rules. I ran it with a newbie group that hated the idea of RPGs, much less D&D. I made gamers out of them, hardcore gamers my good sir.

[Mutazoia]

Personally I would try a simple dice system like the old WEG version of Star Wars. It only uses D6's and the skill progression is pretty easy to figure out.
You have a target number to accomplish a task, try to beat that number by rolling the D6's.

Skills progress as follows 1D, 1D+1, 1D+2, 2D etc. All skill check, attack rolls, defense rolls, etc. use the same simple system.

The basic overview of the D6 system can be found here

[erikun]

Are you familiar with any RPG systems? Because that seems to be half the problem. If you are familiar with the system, you can tell them in simple terms their chance for success - "You need to roll a 7 or better," not "Make a melee attack roll with a bonus from flanking against an AC 28." They'll be able to figure out the system on their own, eventually, if you can help them understand it.

I seem to recall Tri-Stat or something similar being remarkably easy to get into. Body, Mind, Spirit, and they buy the abilities you want the character to have. Other similar systems, such as GURPS, should work just as well as long as you don't bog them down with options.

[Epsilon Rose]

If this is a fairly RP heavy group you might be better off with something other than dnd. For example they might be able to create characters the like more in gurps (although that has a relatively complex set of rules). Alternatively you could try something like Amber which is a step between a fully ruled system (e.g. most systems) and free form games; you have rules and stats but you don't role die.

[Mutazoia]

Alternatively you could try something like Amber which is a step between a fully ruled system (e.g. most systems) and free form games; you have rules and stats but you don't role die.

And here I thought I was the only one that has ever heard of that game

[Epsilon Rose]

And here I thought I was the only one that has ever heard of that game

As did I. Now I'm tempted to suggest running PbP/internet game of it just to see it in use.

[Mutazoia]

As did I. Now I'm tempted to suggest running PbP/internet game of it just to see it in use.

The starting auction would be kind of tough to do by post, but I'm game ;) (no pun intended)

[Epsilon Rose]

The starting auction would be kind of tough to do by post, but I'm game ;) (no pun intended)

It might be better on Skype or IRC or some other analog, but if I remember how it works properly (I haven't read the rules in a while) simply pming the gm with what you're willing to spend might be enough.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Risus would be fantastic with this group; they could probably take it really seriously, actually.

As a completely different tack, there's this delightful little system called Snowball that I've run across. Totally different from any other game I've played. Mind-twisting way to RP. You play (or, rather, can play) the entire game in backwards-ordered scenes, so you have a resolution and then have to set it up. Introduce a pivotal detail in that scene, and you get to introduce its origin later. Introduce insignificant details into that scene, and give them their significance later.

The system itself is very narrative-driven, with the object of making the player invent radically different outcomes (positive or negative) that could happen.

Who knows--you might like it.

[Tyndmyr]

Break 'em in slowly, IMO. Start with very rules light games, and try a few different systems for variety. This is fun for it's own sake, and gets em willing to try different things. Paranoia is an excellent choice, for instance.

Amber Diceless is another good choice, yes.

D&D is a decent system for what it is...but it's fairly rules heavy, and it's a pretty big jump from playing straight freeform. Best to take an easier path to it if you're getting resistance.

Edit: While I've heard of Amber, I've never been able to play a game. I'm not adverse to trying, though.

[Epsilon Rose]

Perhaps we should post a recruitment/advertising thread in the rp section and stop discussing it here?

[stainboy]

Microlite d20 would be worth a look, especially if you want to ease them into D&D later.

[herrhauptmann]

Run the Sunless Citadel. First offical adventure published for 3.5 D&D. It is simple, easy to run, and fun for players. It is designed to give the DM and players a chance to learn almost everything about the rules. I ran it with a newbie group that hated the idea of RPGs, much less D&D. I made gamers out of them, hardcore gamers my good sir.

It was a 3.0 game actually. But besides the kobold sorcerer, and the Shatterspike sword, the sunless citadel was essentially unchanged.

Make a rules light game, and low level. There's less to deal with at low levels, making it easier to learn the rules. At level 15, they're going to be so inundated with options, they're going to freeze up, and not have any fun because they're trying to remember everything.

[Hawthorne]

And here I thought I was the only one that has ever heard of that game

That's the late Erick Wujcik's diceless RPG, right? I was anyways a fan of his Palladium source books, but never picked up Amber. Is it easy to pick up?

[UserClone]

WUUUUUUUSHUUUUUUU!

[Skorj]

I have to agree with those suggesting Risus. IMO, it just can't be beat as an introduction to RPing with dice. It introduces the most important concepts: that your abilities are quantified, that tasks succeed or fail according to dice rolls, and that those quantified abilities improve over time. Plus it takes just a few minutes to learn.

I wouldn't move to 3.5 until the group had bought in to the basic ideas above. But after an adventure or two, moving to one of the intrductory modules for D&D should be a lot easier.