Doctor Who (again) [SPOILERS]

[factotum]

Rory's story purpose is that he's the chaperone--he's Amy's husband and it makes it absolutely darned sure there won't be any Doctor/Companion romances with him around. Personally I think that's a GOOD thing, I got sick of every female companion in Nu Who (with the notable exception of Donna Noble) practically fainting in the Doctor's presence because they wuvved him so...

Besides, I think he has some cool moments. Old Rory in the episode at the weekend, for example, or the scene in the episode before where this conversation happens:

Rory: But Rome *fell*.
Doctor: Yes, I know, I was there.
Rory: So was I.

Fact is, Rory still has some part of him that spent 2000 years waiting for Amy to come out of the Pandorica, and I reckon there'll be some interesting stuff coming out of that this series.

[Mauve Shirt]

As Factotum said, I think Rory's a good thing because he prevents Amy from falling in love with the Doctor, which happened too often with Tennant. They do like to use the "who is Amy talking about when she says this? D=" plot a little much though.
Matt and Eccleston are my preferred Doctors (I haven't seen old Who) because their companions don't fawn over them, and because they're less "it's the curse of the time lords " as that picture says. Matt had his moment of "I'm the last of the time lords" in the last episode, but he doesn't have those "it's all my fault!" moments in every single episode like Tennant did. Eccleston was angry, and also had his moments, but angry is better than super-sad.

[The Big Dice]

Matt and Eccleston are my preferred Doctors (I haven't seen old Who) because their companions don't fawn over them, and because they're less "it's the curse of the time lords " as that picture says. Matt had his moment of "I'm the last of the time lords" in the last episode, but he doesn't have those "it's all my fault!" moments in every single episode like Tennant did. Eccleston was angry, and also had his moments, but angry is better than super-sad.

That picture should have all eleven Doctors on it. I could just see Hartnell saying "Ice cream? Ice cream? You are wasting my time with such frippery, child!" But if you think Rose didn't fawn over Ecclestone, go back and watch season 1 again. She's completely smitten with him right from episode 1. She gets jealous in End of the World and the way she's talking about the age gap in Aliens of London makes it pretty clear she's not looking at the Doctor as just a friend.

I find it fascinating that people feel the need to aggressively put down David Tennant, a man they were claiming was the greatest thing to ever happen to the show only a few years ago. It's like there's this need to defend Matt Smith from the nasty man that came before him.

And to those people, I say this. Go watch The Christmas invasion, Tooth and Claw, The Satan Pit, Smith And Jones, Gridlock, Human Nature/Family of Blood, Utopia, Fires of Pompeii and Midnight. Be reminded of David Tennant's range, ability and sheer quality as an actor.

Then remember that he's not on the show anymore. You don't have to defend Matt Smith from him, because the two aren't in direct competition. And even though the ratings are dropping in a way that would see an American show cancelled, because of the unique way the BBC is funded it's likely that us Brits will keep paying for Who for at least two more years.

The fact is, arguments about who is better as the Doctor have been going on since The Power of the Daleks, Patrick Troughton's fist story. And one I wish they'd animate in the same way they did the lost episodes of Invasion. They're never going to go away and really, there's no point to them anyway.

[Mauve Shirt]

You're right, Rose did fawn over the Doctor, but the Doctor wasn't fawning over Rose yet. At least not as much as David did. The whole "I think you need a Doctor" bit was more "Aw" and less "Not AGAIN."
And I feel the need to defend and restate my position as not a Tennant fan because of the sheer overwhelming amount of Tennant fanboys I know and associate with him. The kind that will throw things at you and kick you if you say you don't love him more than anything.
Tennant was a good actor, had a great range and I like many of his episodes, but he was too mournful and apologized for his actions too much. He also behaved more like a human than Matt. Matt behaves eccentrically enough to be a 900-year-old alien. And he looks like one too, he has no eyebrows.

[Eldan]

Interesting though that the first Doctor was the one chosen by the Tardis, then

[Kato]

I find it fascinating that people feel the need to aggressively put down David Tennant, a man they were claiming was the greatest thing to ever happen to the show only a few years ago. It's like there's this need to defend Matt Smith from the nasty man that came before him.

Oh, I don't think many people feel the need to put him down. He's a great actor, I acknowledge that and I think he did great stuff as the Doctor but YMMV on what kind of Doctor you prefer and I think Eleven just is more entertaining instead of gloomy, I guess. Yes, Ten could be fun, too no argument there. It just was (again) many of the situations Davies put him in or... the image of him he created which was kind of putting me off.


Another short note on companions: Someone earlier mentioned s/he liked Martha because she was independent. I'm sorry, are we talking about the same person? The Martha I remember focused pretty much all of her life on the Doctor from the moment she met him. It felt to me like her sole purpose was to mope around because he was still saddened by his loss of Rose (thus she couldn't get in his pants). Or in Family of blood be jealous of that other woman the Doctor started to... well, go out with, for the lack of a better word. I was really glad when they exchanged her for Donna who had none or only the slightest hint of romantic affection for the Doctor.

[Dienekes]

I find it fascinating that people feel the need to aggressively put down David Tennant, a man they were claiming was the greatest thing to ever happen to the show only a few years ago. It's like there's this need to defend Matt Smith from the nasty man that came before him.

How is this any different from your need to put down Moffat every episode?

Also, I have never claimed Tennant was the greatest thing to ever happen to the show. I thought he was a decent Doctor, but his problem was his relationship with his companions. Rose/Martha were basically there to fawn over him. I honestly couldn't care less about their desire to get into the Doctor's pants. Mickey was like Rory as the old relationship before the Doctor, but he was a whiny prat always talking about how it's never going to be his turn. Honestly man, dump the chick can move on. You're acting pathetic. Jack never did anything for me. I don't have anything really against him but I never liked him much. The only good ones were Donna and Wilf. Wilf because he was awesome and Donna because she tried to act on an even footing with the Doctor. Even then they tried to ram the old relationships in our face every episode with the two exclaiming how they're not in a relationship. It got old.

Because first and foremost the relationship between companion and Doctor is what best describes the Doctor. Sure one might be angry or kooky but we best see that in how they act with the companions. Tennant was the forlorn lover, and honestly I didn't care about that.

Now unlike others. I don't think Tennant was actually bad. I think he did a great job and I won't say anything against his acting ability and some of his episodes were absolutely fantastic. But personally I like Smith's better. The romance they stuck him with is interesting in it's mystery and nothing else and I actually like the companions he's brought along with him and I think he interacts well with both of them.

[Helanna]

I find it fascinating that people feel the need to aggressively put down David Tennant, a man they were claiming was the greatest thing to ever happen to the show only a few years ago. It's like there's this need to defend Matt Smith from the nasty man that came before him.

Then you're not paying attention, because nobody is doing that. At all. Nobody is putting down David Tennant, and I'm fairly sure nobody who's complaining about aspects of the Tenth Doctor were the ones fanboying so much over him a few years ago. Do you find it difficult to believe that one could honestly, simply like Eleven more than Ten?

And to those people, I say this. Go watch The Christmas invasion, Tooth and Claw, The Satan Pit, Smith And Jones, Gridlock, Human Nature/Family of Blood, Utopia, Fires of Pompeii and Midnight. Be reminded of David Tennant's range, ability and sheer quality as an actor.

I'm saying that Tennant wasn't an awesome actor, I'm saying that the role he was placed in drove me crazy. He had some truly fantastic episodes, yes. But especially by the end of his run, the majority of the episodes focused around him moping around being angsty. That's not fun to watch. Matt Smith running around being quirky is much more fun to watch. I'm not trying to "defend" Matt Smith from David Tennant - I simply like his character more.

The fact is, arguments about who is better as the Doctor have been going on since The Power of the Daleks, Patrick Troughton's fist story. And one I wish they'd animate in the same way they did the lost episodes of Invasion. They're never going to go away and really, there's no point to them anyway.

Well, they're fun if nobody takes them too seriously, which nobody tends to on these boards. So there's that.

[The Big Dice]

I'm saying that Tennant wasn't an awesome actor, I'm saying that the role he was placed in drove me crazy. He had some truly fantastic episodes, yes. But especially by the end of his run, the majority of the episodes focused around him moping around being angsty. That's not fun to watch. Matt Smith running around being quirky is much more fun to watch. I'm not trying to "defend" Matt Smith from David Tennant - I simply like his character more.

The last three specials Tennant did were more intense than a lot of things that came before. They were the kind of stories you can only tell once with a character like the Doctor. But you can't tell me that The Next Doctor was all emo. And after rewatching some DVD box sets recently, I'm really getting the feeling that the people dissing Tennant and Russel T Davies since Moffat took over are half remembering things and generally forgetting what made the show such complusive viewing since it came back on screen.

But such is the nature of fandom. It's the same thing that has movies getting massive receptions at ComicCon and then not getting anything like the kind of box office the studio thought that was going to translate to. And current season Who ratings are dropping compared to previous years.

And there are also rumours floating round the UK press that either Matt Smith or Karen Gillan will be leaving the show at the end of the 2011 season.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Everyone* hated Russel T Davies' finale episodes during RTD's run. Not at first, but by season 3 at least.

People hated RTD's messianic rubbish he stuffed into both Torchwood and Doctor Who. People hated the deus ex machina endings. People hated the sameyness. This wasn't a problem the first time those happened but as they kept happening people got annoyed. My dad noticed the Kal El comparisons back near the begining of season 1.

The actor I feel most sorry for is John Simm, whose awesome the Master didn't actually get to appear in a good episode.

RTD is an amazing guy who managed to revive a dead series and turn it into the most popular thing on TV. But he just couldn't write a new good two parter to end every series.

*its called hyperbole. I just mean that the anti-RTD faction had its origins back then

[Eldan]

What. I hope Smith doesn't leave. I mean, I get that actors move on, but every time they change Doctors, it takes time to establish a new one, and for the audience to get their identification figure back. They can't keep changing them that quickly.

[Aotrs Commander]

RTD is an amazing guy who managed to revive a dead series and turn it into the most popular thing on TV. But he just couldn't write a new good two parter to end every series.

Well, you can't top Daleks verses Cybermen, can you?

(Though I'll grant you, after that moment of Awesome, the whole Rose bye-bye thing wasn't so good... Well, seeing the back of Rose was, but I'm not a fan of romance (unless it provides the opportunity for humour), and tragic starcrossed romance absolutely least of all. I've said it before and I'll say it again, bugger what Joss Whedon said, people being miserable is not even remotely entertaining for me. Miserable =/= in peril.)



But me, I like to see a larger cast in anything. I really like the current set-up; it's worth noting that at no point prior to Matt Smith have I watched every single episode of New Who per season. I just like ensemble casts; it's one of my favourite things about Naruto, X-Men (in it's various incarnations), Babylon 5 (though among it's many, many other stellar traits) and many others. It's one of the reasons Batman the animated series has never lastingly appealed to me, nor Superman TAS, but Justice League/JLU I thought were superb.

I have never really liked many of the Doctor's companions, new or old. Ace and Nyssa are the only two that stood out (I admit, I've not seen enough of Three or Four, when UK Gold was showing the old series, to have an opinion of Sarah Jane (God rest Elizabeth Sladen's soul) or Leela (though the former was pretty cool in the new series.) So for me Amy and Rory - and River - are a real breath from fresh air, and I really enjoy seeing them all. (In fact, for my money, River could be a permenant member of the crew.) I like seeing them interact with each other, and with the Doctor, because they all have their own dynamics. Hell, I didn't really like Mickey, but I'd have preferred it if they have let him to go along too.



As to purpose, does any character really need a "purpose", other than to provided entertainment? When you get down to it, the primary "purpose" for having companions, like at all, is to give the viewer some exposition dump, and for that job you could replace them with an intelligent sandwich. (I'd bet souls to sabres very few children give a rat's arse about anyone other than the Doctor, the same way very few gave a rat's arse about the human characters like Spike Witwicky or Scott Trakker in Transformers or MASK when I was younger.) It's not like, if they could be arsed, they couln't have found a clever way to have gotten around that (so many other shows do) if they really wanted (and have several times). But they don't, generally, because companions provide someone for the Doctor to interact with, and as far as I'm concerned, the more of that the better.

Rory provides a foil for a lot of humour, and some touching moments (if you like that sort of thing), and a different sort of interaction with the Doctor. And that to me, making me laugh, is by far the most important purpose in any show (especially those with a serious tone.) I find that something devoid of humour, no matter if it's quite technically clever otherwise, is just not entertaining anymore.

Also, Lichemaster forbid we actually see something even vaguely close to a stable romantic relationship/marriage in sci-fi for once. I mean, seriously, perish the thought.


Though if they choose to replace the companions completely with a good-aligned Dalek sidekick (or even a not-good aligned Dalek for extra fun) instead, I'd be TOTALLY okay with that.

Actually, I'd even still watch it if the replaced the Doctor with, I dunno, Dalek 746, who gets lost in time due to a fragup in his temporal shift matrix or something , and renamed the show Dalek Who. Because it would be awesome.

[The Big Dice]

Everyone* hated Russel T Davies' finale episodes during RTD's run. Not at first, but by season 3 at least.

That would be everyone posting on the internet then. So about 25 people. I'm sorry, but internet opinions don't count for a thing. Yes, even mine.

People complain about the reset button. Like the one at the end of last season. And the sonic screwdriver being able to do everything. Which started in The Empty Child, written by the guy who is current showrunner. What people don't realise is, season 1 was an experiment, nobody knew if it would work 15 years on or not. Season 2 had a finale that was basically Russel T Davies writing his childhood Doctor Who fantasies and making them come true. Season 3 was bringing in a villain that was a credible threat to the Doctor. One that actually defeated him. The Season 4 finale wasn't about the spectacle. It was about the ghastly fate that Donna suffered.

Look at Doctor #10 in these terms. He's managed to overcome his survivor guilt after his entire species was wiped out by his own actions. The girl who helped him recover and get over his trauma got trapped in an alternate reality. Because of him.

So he goes for the rebound human. Who he proceeds to lie to, break her heart multiple times and generally put the responsibility for cleaning up the mess he leaves in his wake on her shoulders. And on top of that, because of him, her family spends a year getting tortured by a madman that the Doctor enabled. A year that nobody else remembers.

And most horrible of all was Donna. Someone he described as his best friend. Someone who could have been more than just a friend, she could have been an equal in intellectual terms. And he had to erase her memory of him or she would die. Because of him.

People complain about the way Doctor #10 was angsty and emo towards the end. It's because the reset button wasn't used. Or not in the way that people accuse RTD of using it, anyway.

People hated RTD's messianic rubbish he stuffed into both Torchwood and Doctor Who. People hated the deus ex machina endings. People hated the sameyness. This wasn't a problem the first time those happened but as they kept happening people got annoyed. My dad noticed the Kal El comparisons back near the begining of season 1.

The only difference between now and the 60s, 70s and 80s is, now the technology is there to make the benevolent alien larger than life. Tom Baker was questioned about the messianic overtones of the show on his first promotional trip to the US. That's hardly a new thing.

And just how was the Russel T Davies era 'samey' in the least? Each season he was part of felt very different from the other seasons, and not just because of changing companions. It went from damaged and traumatized Doctor, to running round time and space having a grand old time until it all goes horribly wrong. Then it was the rebound and not seeing what's right under your nose. Finally comes the good friend and the tragedy.

The actor I feel most sorry for is John Simm, whose awesome the Master didn't actually get to appear in a good episode.

Well, other than the five episodes he was in. Yes, I am counting his little appearance at the end of Utopia. The closing trilogy of season 3 was absolutely magnificent, and even the silly angelic Doctor (which was actually foreshadowed in the episode before) couldn't spoil how awesome those episodes really were.

The Doctor got beaten not once, but twice in a row by the same person. The only other time I can think of that the Doctor got beaten that soundly was in teh Sea Devils. And again that was by the Master.

RTD is an amazing guy who managed to revive a dead series and turn it into the most popular thing on TV. But he just couldn't write a new good two parter to end every series.

RTD didn't just bring back one show. He brought back Who, plus he gave us Torchwood and the Sarah Jane Adventures. And quite honestly, I thing Torchwood: Children of Earth is some of the best British science fiction ever put on screen. That inclues things like Quatermass, Day of the Triffids and classic Who at it's best.

Each end of season story is highly relevant to the season it took place in. And each one is a bit better, a little bigger and a bit more powerful than the one before it.

Go watch them again and see if I'm wrong.

[Dienekes]

The only difference between now and the 60s, 70s and 80s is, now the technology is there to make the benevolent alien larger than life. Tom Baker was questioned about the messianic overtones of the show on his first promotional trip to the US. That's hardly a new thing.

Being used before doesn't make it good, nor does it make it bad. Messiah Doctor was kind of annoying in this incarnation of the show.

Well, other than the five episodes he was in. Yes, I am counting his little appearance at the end of Utopia. The closing trilogy of season 3 was absolutely magnificent, and even the silly angelic Doctor (which was actually foreshadowed in the episode before) couldn't spoil how awesome those episodes really were.

Sort of agree sort of disagree. I liked the Master's episodes, but the ending of each was crap. Messiah Doctor actually made me laugh out loud at how stupid it looked and felt. Sure it was foreshadowed but that was just dumb and it was possibly the largest Deus ex Machima in the show so far. Hated that ending. The Toclafane were brilliant though, no argument there. Mini-Doctor looked a bit ridiculous but that's a small problem compared to Messiah Docor. The special good-bye to Tennant also would have been pretty good, but again that ending. Hated the wistful waving goodbye to everyone. If I ever rewatch that finale I always skip the end.

Though that was a pattern with him. The first season end was pretty cool until Rose become Tardis-Rose. Then it just got weird and wrapped up too quickly (though maybe that was just my Dalek loving self being disappointed by them being beaten at all). Davies made great concept stories that were amazing, really, but he couldn't quite find a good way to end them.

[Drolyt]

Well, other than the five episodes he was in. Yes, I am counting his little appearance at the end of Utopia. The closing trilogy of season 3 was absolutely magnificent, and even the silly angelic Doctor (which was actually foreshadowed in the episode before) couldn't spoil how awesome those episodes really were.

I have to agree with you here, I loved all The Master's episodes. I'd rather see more of him than the one episode a series Dalek quota. The only thing I didn't like is the Deus Ex Machina they used to defeat him in Season 3. Davies really was bad with the Deus Ex Machinas, that isn't something you can argue with. He didn't use it all the time though, The End of Time was set up pretty well without pulling anything out of Davies behind.

Regardless, criticizing Davies doesn't mean we don't like him.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And quite honestly, I thing Torchwood: Children of Earth is some of the best British science fiction ever put on screen. That inclues things like Quatermass, Day of the Triffids and classic Who at it's best.

I couldn't be bothered to watch Children of Earth because of how the previous seasons I slogged through gave me no confidence in it what so ever.

There were about four episodes of Torchwood I actually liked.

Random Shoes
Captain Jack Harkness (part 2 of that story sucked)
To the last man
Reset

But looking at the episode guide I had to get those titles from there are also about 5 episodes I missed. About half the ones I didn't like and watched were absolutely dire and the other half were okay at best.

Jack Harkness was fun in The Empty Child because he was a charming rogue you couldn't trust. Making him Jesus kind of ruined the point.

[Helanna]

The last three specials Tennant did were more intense than a lot of things that came before. They were the kind of stories you can only tell once with a character like the Doctor. But you can't tell me that The Next Doctor was all emo. And after rewatching some DVD box sets recently, I'm really getting the feeling that the people dissing Tennant and Russel T Davies since Moffat took over are half remembering things and generally forgetting what made the show such complusive viewing since it came back on screen.

Except that I, along with plenty of others, were complaining about Tennant and Davies well before Smith or Moffat came along. Why do you keep assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is mis-remembering or just doing it to defend something else? Some people just didn't like the Tenth Doctor much.

Like I said, I loved the vast majority of Tennant's run. I'm not trying to say that all his episodes were bad or that he didn't produce any great ones, because he absolutely did. But by his last episode I really felt that it was time for him to leave. However, I was still expecting a sad, touching, fitting end to it, and I was indeed getting pretty sad . . . until he spent ten minutes doing nothing but wandering around moping some more, finishing off with "I don't want to go". I'd explain why that was such a horrible ending, but Welshy already did.

That would be everyone posting on the internet then. So about 25 people. I'm sorry, but internet opinions don't count for a thing. Yes, even mine.

Not even close. Obviously, way more than 25 people complained. And I'm not sure why anyone's opinion on the internet would matter less than someone's opinion in real-life, seeing as they'd be the same no matter what medium they were expressed in. Davies' season finales just weren't very good. He kept trying to build up these huge super-epic plots, but then couldn't think of a way to end them short of massive Deus ex Machina. And yes, this was a problem I had with last season's finale - getting out of the Pandorica with time loops seemed like a pretty cheap way to create false drama. But at least the entire plot wasn't solved with such a huge anti-climactic piece of trickery. And Davies' plots just got ridiculous sometimes - I really couldn't take the Doctor seriously at all during Last of the Time Lords. Everybody clap your hands if you believe, huh?

People complain about the way Doctor #10 was angsty and emo towards the end. It's because the reset button wasn't used. Or not in the way that people accuse RTD of using it, anyway.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, I'm saying it's not entertaining and got on quite a few people's nerves. It can be done well - the first season episode "Dalek" is one of my favorites - but I just don't think it was here.

[The Big Dice]

Like I said, I loved the vast majority of Tennant's run. I'm not trying to say that all his episodes were bad or that he didn't produce any great ones, because he absolutely did. But by his last episode I really felt that it was time for him to leave. However, I was still expecting a sad, touching, fitting end to it, and I was indeed getting pretty sad . . . until he spent ten minutes doing nothing but wandering around moping some more, finishing off with "I don't want to go". I'd explain why that was such a horrible ending, but Welshy already did.

So you don't get the ending. If you can't understand that the Tenth Doctor had more joy, more love of life and just more life to live than any other incarnation, that he still felt he had things he wanted to do and he had that all too human reaction of it not being his time yet, then I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

And that ten minutes moping around as you put it. That was saying goodbye to the previous five years of the show, bringing it all full circle. I seriously doubt any characters from the RTD run on the show will be back. And that's good. And those lst few appearances by people were the full stop on the end of the character stories,

And the way the change over was done isn't the problem with the Moffat/Smith run on the show. The problem is, Matt Smith is a gifted actor that isn't being allowed to act to the fullest of his ability. The scripts aren't challenging him. Steven Moffat is a very good writer, but he only does one story. When he tries to move away from the nightmare fuel, we get Girl in the Fireplace. Or worse, Curse of Fatal Death revised.

Not even close. Obviously, way more than 25 people complained. And I'm not sure why anyone's opinion on the internet would matter less than someone's opinion in real-life, seeing as they'd be the same no matter what medium they were expressed in.

Because people never say anything nice on the internet. They just bitch and complain. Or to quote Kevin Smith, the internet is made up of equal parts porn and people bitching about movies.

And the real life opinion of the current Who is, 1.2 million viewers per week have stopped watching the show. There's something that the British public don't like about it.

Davies' season finales just weren't very good. He kept trying to build up these huge super-epic plots, but then couldn't think of a way to end them short of massive Deus ex Machina. And yes, this was a problem I had with last season's finale - getting out of the Pandorica with time loops seemed like a pretty cheap way to create false drama. But at least the entire plot wasn't solved with such a huge anti-climactic piece of trickery. And Davies' plots just got ridiculous sometimes - I really couldn't take the Doctor seriously at all during Last of the Time Lords. Everybody clap your hands if you believe, huh?

Considering the psychic network things was how the Master got into power in the first place, I think you're seeing a God from the Machine where there isn't one. That said, I thought the ending was cheesy, or rather it was schmaltzy. But for me, the ending wasn't about the Doctor being turned into a younger guy again. It was about Holmes and Moriarty, it was about using false information as a weapon and most importantly, it was about the Doctor losing yet again. For the third episode in a row, the Master won.

And considering that was the only time a reset button was actually used for a season finale in all of RTD's run on the show, I think there's a considerable over reaction to it.

And quite honestly, flying the Pandorica into the TARDIS that had been exploding for almost 2,000 years and had somehow managed to stop anything from ever having happened was a very cheap, special effects driven way to end the series. It wasn't dramatic, it wasn't big. It was pretty to look at and not much else.

The way the Doctor was brought back was also extremely cheesy. HE was saved from never having existed by Amy and her something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue?

And Russel T Davies gets accused of getting himself out of plot corners in a bad way?

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, I'm saying it's not entertaining and got on quite a few people's nerves. It can be done well - the first season episode "Dalek" is one of my favorites - but I just don't think it was here.

Dalek was a staggeringly good episode. We had a return to the Daleks being TV's Most Awesome Bad Guy, pathos for that same Dalek, the Doctor literally frothing at the mouth and of course the Dalek overcoming their ancient weakness. And mass exterminations, too.

BUt then, RTD had characters going through changes, being slightly different at the end of a season from who they were at the start. Maybe it's slower in coming, but I haven't seen much of that now. Moffat has returned to the old model of once you get in the TARDIS, you're off and you don't know if you'll ever come home. He's not interested in teh effects the Dcotor has on the people who get left behind.

And I think that's a shame.

[Triscuitable]

I seriously doubt any characters from the RTD run on the show will be back. And that's good. And those lst few appearances by people were the full stop on the end of the character stories,

Am I the only fan who wants the return of the Ninth and Wilf?

...and of course the Dalek overcoming their ancient weakness. And mass exterminations, too.

New 'Who' fans may be wondering said weakness. It's stairs. Fifty years, and stairs are their greatest enemy. Not the denizens of Gallifrey, not the Cybermen, a couple planks of strategically elevated wood was all it took to stop them.

[Areswargod139]

lol, old joke, old joke.

Careful with that one, it's an antique!

[Closet_Skeleton]

But by his last episode I really felt that it was time for him to leave. However, I was still expecting a sad, touching, fitting end to it, and I was indeed getting pretty sad . . . until he spent ten minutes doing nothing but wandering around moping some more, finishing off with "I don't want to go". I'd explain why that was such a horrible ending, but Welshy already did.

I'd disagree there. I liked him saying "I don't want to go" because I thought it showed exactly why he had to go. By the end of Tennant's run the doctor was a shell shocked egoist with massive amounts of blood on his hands. Showing him accepting death might have been better but wasn't really needed since he already accepted death when he chose to save Wilf.

For the stupid messianic comparisons, Jesus' last words aren't "I'm happy to die and I'm going to get ressurected anyway" they're "god why have you forsaken me?" Okay, that's only in Mathew and Mark. In the other gospels he basically says "I'm happy to die and get resurected." This is probably part of why we don't discuss religion on this board. So back to Doctor Who...

Timelords aren't Jesus Space Aslan. They're much more pheonix equivilants. The 10th doctor had to die so he could be reborn without the sin/baggage that was crushing him down. A popular interpration of Jesus Space Aslan is that he doesn't have any sin in the first place. The comparison really doesn't work.

I thought the End of Time or whatever is was called was mostly a stinking piece of crap. But that was mostly a matter of execution rather than concept.

Doctor Who works best as a kids show that doesn't treat its audience like idiots*. I think all the Christmas specials and shoe-horned in event episodes caused it to lose a lot of that.

*that and as an anthology scifi/historical series. Stories like this latest one that are basically about the doctor and the tardis are okay now and then but shouldn't happen too often. The tardis is a premise that allows adventures to happen, the moment it becomes an adventure in itself you're losing sight of the premise. The doctor works best when he's a bit mysterious because they stories aren't supposed to be about him, they're supposed to be about the people he meets.

New 'Who' fans may be wondering said weakness. It's stairs. Fifty years, and stairs are their greatest enemy. Not the denizens of Gallifrey, not the Cybermen, a couple planks of strategically elevated wood was all it took to stop them.

Only example I remember of that actually happening is the one where Davros is ressurected for the first time and its actually a sheer veritical wall that the doctor has got up using a rope. Then there's Rememberance of the darleks which actually has stairs and the dalek floats just like in the new series.

So you don't get the ending. If you can't understand that the Tenth Doctor had more joy, more love of life and just more life to live than any other incarnation, that he still felt he had things he wanted to do and he had that all too human reaction of it not being his time yet, then I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

The tenth Doctor still had a love for life after his last proper non-specials season ended? Could have fooled me. I didn't see the bus one (and by all reports I didnt' miss much) but it seemed to me by the end he only existed to genocide whatever threat was in front of him. I think he lost most of himself when he decided not to have a companion anymore.

[Areswargod139]

My take on it: the tenth doctor was the beginning of the over-attachment that eventually becomes the Valeyard. 10 is just too attached to his life, waaaay more attached than most of the other doctors. One thing I'll disagree with Welshy on though--the regenerated Doctor's don't necessarily have all the same mental traits and memories of the previous ones. It's as the 10th doctor says...it's mostly a new, unique person that walks off in the previous Doctor's clothes.

Some Doctor's are really good at piloting the TARDIS (10), some are really bad at it (11--look at the TARDIS bounce around in the Time Vortex!).

Some are smarter (7!), some are a little bit dumber (1!). They have a vague notion of who they were before, and have many of the same memories, but I've never been given the impression that they are the same being or that they look on those memories as anything more than what happened to someone else.

Also, I noticed that many regenerations seem like reactions to the previous one(s): 2 was goofy compared to the seriousness of 1--3 was also serious as a reaction to 2?

5 was really compassionate and 6 was a jerk.

8 wore fancy duds and had a fancy TARDIS. 9 dressed like some kind of biker/bum hybrid and had a much spartan-looking TARDIS.
10 was very attached to many, many people while being full of pop-culture references while 11 is a much more awkward "alien" who doesn't even understand a lot of human social interaction anymore. Doesn't make many friends and treats the companions he has as much more of an afterthought/bother than 10 did.

[Drolyt]

And the real life opinion of the current Who is, 1.2 million viewers per week have stopped watching the show. There's something that the British public don't like about it.

You are oversimplifying things. There are plenty of reasons for ratings to go down besides people not liking the show, such as perhaps it has stronger competition, I don't know. And even if less people like it, that doesn't necessarily mean it has lower quality. Tenant was extremely popular, his fans may simply be unwilling to accept anything other than him. Happens all the time when a popular character leaves a show, regardless of the show's merits thereafter.

[factotum]

New 'Who' fans may be wondering said weakness. It's stairs. Fifty years, and stairs are their greatest enemy. Not the denizens of Gallifrey, not the Cybermen, a couple planks of strategically elevated wood was all it took to stop them.

Wrong, actually--a Dalek was seen hovering up stairs during a Sylvester McCoy episode. OK, hardly anybody watched McCoy's Doctor, but I still remember that scene quite clearly myself, which is why it came as no surprise to me when the Dalek did exactly the same thing in "Dalek"!

[EDIT] Does anybody have viewing figures for Ecclestone's Doctor? How did they compare with Tennant?

[Juggling Goth]

I, too, think that Smith is the best Doctor yet. I might get shot for saying this in the wrong parts of London, but I actually think Tennant was the worst (or, more accurately, least-amazing) of the three new Doctors. I thought Eccleston portrayed the horror of the Time War and the massive guilt he had very well, and I think Smith does the crazy genius thing perfectly. Tennant was somewhere in between for me, and didn't have the personality I feel in the other two.

Eccleston was brilliant, but I think his run needed to be short. His Doctor was so intense and damaged.

Tennant, for me, was just too wacky. I actually find Matt Smith a bit calmer. I dunno; there's more subtlety to him. David Tennant had to be out there all the time. Towards the end of Tennant's run, it all just went a bit self-parody. (I seem to be the only person who really didn't like Human Nature/Family of Blood - the melodrama, the ongoing mistreatment of Martha, the clumsy terrible infuriating idea of including WWI and poppies.) And I think RTD's fanboyishness ended up in the words of the supporting characters far too often. Plus, Donna will always be my favourite Tennant-companion for not following him around like a lost puppy (and what did she get for it? Memories wiped and pushed aside in favour of her grandad). Martha's derailment into Unrequited Love Girl, in particular, made me really angry.

To me, Matt Smith's Doctor always gives the impression he's running on two tracks simultaneously - there's the guy running round talking about how cool his fez is, and underneath that there's something a lot colder and more calculating figuring out what's going on and what he's going to do. Matt Smith's Doctor comes across as properly weird and inscrutable. David Tennant's was just kinda inconsistent.

[The Big Dice]

You are oversimplifying things. There are plenty of reasons for ratings to go down besides people not liking the show, such as perhaps it has stronger competition, I don't know. And even if less people like it, that doesn't necessarily mean it has lower quality. Tenant was extremely popular, his fans may simply be unwilling to accept anything other than him. Happens all the time when a popular character leaves a show, regardless of the show's merits thereafter.

The only competition is a novelty celeb singing competition. Which isn't really any competition at all. And Matt Smith has potential that the producers won't let him realise. I'm getting a strong vibe that he's in a very similar boat to the one Colin Baker was in. That is, he's got no input into his costume (which looks like a costume rather than an outfit) and his performance. Which looks forced. There's moments when he shows flashes of what could be, but on the whole, the lighter, more believable performance from The Eleventh Hour is overshadowed by lame waving of hands and all that "I'm weird I am" stuff.

Wrong, actually--a Dalek was seen hovering up stairs during a Sylvester McCoy episode. OK, hardly anybody watched McCoy's Doctor, but I still remember that scene quite clearly myself, which is why it came as no surprise to me when the Dalek did exactly the same thing in "Dalek"!

[EDIT] Does anybody have viewing figures for Ecclestone's Doctor? How did they compare with Tennant?

I remember that too. But remember that Dalek was both fanservice and introducing a whole generation of kids to something they had absolutely no idea about just 45 minutes earlier.
There's a rough idea here of how well each episode up to Day of the Moon performed in the ratings. If anything, Tennant's run did a little better than Ecclestone, but only the specials got higher figures than Rose. Which kind of makes sense. Rose was the huge gamble, and quite honestly this trailer got me more excited about the show than anything else.

To me, Matt Smith's Doctor always gives the impression he's running on two tracks simultaneously - there's the guy running round talking about how cool his fez is, and underneath that there's something a lot colder and more calculating figuring out what's going on and what he's going to do. Matt Smith's Doctor comes across as properly weird and inscrutable. David Tennant's was just kinda inconsistent.

I find Matt Smith's Doctor to be like a Johnny Depp character from a Tim Burton movie. Shallow and he makes me want to shake him and shout YOU'RE A BETTER ACTOR THAN THIS" in his face. He's too fake, to cartoony and comes across as someone playing at being the Doctor, rather being than the Doctor. The subtle performance in The Eleventh Hour got replaced by silly bobble head antics.

And that's a shame, both for the show, which hasn't been renewed for next year yet, let alone the 50th anniversary. And for the ratings, which are quite frankly not great. Not the worst the show has ever seen, but certainly the worst the show has had in the last 6 years.

[Drolyt]

And that's a shame, both for the show, which hasn't been renewed for next year yet, let alone the 50th anniversary. And for the ratings, which are quite frankly not great. Not the worst the show has ever seen, but certainly the worst the show has had in the last 6 years.

Which is too bad, because I think the current cast has lots of potential. I'll admit last season wasn't as good as it could have been, but I maintain that that is due to writing and/or directing and that the current Doctor and his companions are awesome. Among last year's episodes, I thought The Beast below, The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Amy's Choice, and The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang were great episodes. The others were lackluster, despite great performances by the guest characters in Victory of the Daleks and Vincent and the Doctor, the later of which is somewhere between the good and bad episodes. None of the episodes were unwatchable though. As for this season, the opening two parter was brilliant, as was the Neil Gaiman episode, and the other one falls into the lackluster but watchable category.

I'm not sure what the problem is with coming up with great episodes. Moffat wrote some of the best Who of all time before he took the helm, so my best guess is he is trying to do too much. I love the myth arc of the last couple seasons, but the individual episodes don't seem to be working perfectly.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Vampires in Venice was the only episode from last season I didn't like. Victory of the Daleks was bad but I still kind of liked it. I didn't like the Lodger so much but thought it was still good and I thought Vincent and the Doctor was the best. Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone was dissapointing as a successor to Blink (well duh) and the Beast Below felt like a re-use of a discarding Eccleston script.

I'm getting a strong vibe that he's in a very similar boat to the one Colin Baker was in. That is, he's got no input into his costume (which looks like a costume rather than an outfit) and his performance.

Pretty sure Matt Smith did get input into his costume, according to the early season 5 behind the scenes promotional stuff.

Something about the designers wanting to dress him as a pirate and someone else (who I remember being Matt Smith but wasn't if you're right) saying that the designed outfit looked like something someone would dress the doctor in but not something the doctor would dress himself in.

[Thufir]

some are a little bit dumber (1!)

BLASPHEMY!

[The Big Dice]

Which is too bad, because I think the current cast has lots of potential. I'll admit last season wasn't as good as it could have been, but I maintain that that is due to writing and/or directing and that the current Doctor and his companions are awesome.

I agree that the writing and directing on Who has gone downhill since the change in production team. I blame the attitude they seem to have, which is change for the sake of change. Things that weren't broken were fixed, like the opening credits and the theme tune. And the Daleks, of course. With the core of experienced writers and directors they'd built up getting ignored in favour of people with no experience on the show.

I'm not saying that giving new people a shot is a bad thing. But there were also big changes in most of the departments that produce the show. Unfortunately, they seem to have had a bigger knock on effect than might have been hoped for.

I'm not sure what the problem is with coming up with great episodes. Moffat wrote some of the best Who of all time before he took the helm, so my best guess is he is trying to do too much. I love the myth arc of the last couple seasons, but the individual episodes don't seem to be working perfectly.

Part of the problem is Moffat is also showrunner on the new Sherlock Holmes adaptation the BBC are doing. Maybe that explains the ham fisted handling of the over arching plots we've seen in both the seasons he's supervised, who knows?