RPing Foe Yay (ie, Villain Attracted To Arch-Enemy)

[Leliel]

Well...that.

In a PbP Exalted game-ultimately secondary to the topic, it's just some background-I play a Defiler who favors Kimbery's Charms, and has a real thing for Genesis (magical genetics).

Since I think Spider (the ST) doesn't read these boards, and I want it to be a bit of a twist for everyone-"guess what, everyone, I wasn't just making joke fodder!"-I want him to go through that odd, supervillain pseudo-attraction to a nemesis of his. Preferably hetero, given how he's implied to be perfectly straight and has no impetus to change that in the backstory.

Except it isn't "pseudo" at all, I want it to be the tip off to how emotionally screwed up he's becoming under Kimbery's influence (she's basically the ultimate Yandere; if she loves you, she hates you for maybe possibly sort of betraying her in the future). A sort of "Hello, Kojin? You're not working for the good guys here!"

So, how do I roleplay Foe Yay, and the eventual realization that it exists?

[BayardSPSR]

The same way as anything else, or any other dramatic revelation? Except more uncomfortable for the players, I guess... I really don't know. I once had a player roll too well for his male character to seduce the old wizard who was previously their enemy; that's as close as I've come to what you're describing.

But... I don't play Exalted and I'm not quite sure exactly what you're describing. Could you clarify?

[TheCountAlucard]

So, how do I roleplay Foe Yay, and the eventual realization that it exists?

Well, mechanics-wise, having an Intimacy toward said Foe should be sufficient, but you're asking about RPing it, which is a whole other thing... Given how you're a Defiler with Kimberry, this is naturally going to be a very unhealthy relationship, only strained by the nature of your being enemies. As such, you'll be diving straight into Uncomfortable Territory, but if you think the group is mature enough to handle it...

First, you'll want to spend a bit of time thinking on why your character would develop such feelings for a person. Find a reason, and the emotional context, and get into that mindset. I've found this to work for RPing most things my Exalt had Intimacies toward. If nothing else, it serves as an excellent springboard from which other ideas can surface.

But... I don't play Exalted and I'm not quite sure exactly what you're describing. Could you clarify?

Well, see, part of what he's saying is Exalted stuff, but the other half is TVTropes terminology. Both are pretty alien languages, and to see them mixed can often give some very alien results.

Kimbery? She's one of the Primordials in the setting, and his character emulates her through his magical miracle-working talents, but also a bit in mindset - Kimbery is an obsessive and ultimately poisonous creature, who has amazing capacity for love, and even moreso for hatred at being betrayed.

[BayardSPSR]

Well, see, part of what he's saying is Exalted stuff, but the other half is TVTropes terminology. Both are pretty alien languages, and to see them mixed can often give some very alien results.

Yeah, I speak TVTropes, just not when pidgined with Exalted.

[Coidzor]

Well, this isn't quite as pertinent due to it being PbP, but a very important consideration is whether the players are willing to put up with that kind of behavior from the GM without smacking the GM for being a huge pervert.

Plus you've got the combination of all of the awkward unpleasantness associated with RPing out sex or even just romance with one's GM and added a heaping helping of unfortunate implications.

[Leliel]

Ehh, don't worry about Spider being a pervert-he's specifically ruled that "tasteful fade to black/curtains" is as far as any sex scene is going to go.

[Coidzor]

Ehh, don't worry about Spider being a pervert-he's specifically ruled that "tasteful fade to black/curtains" is as far as any sex scene is going to go.

It's more an in general kind of thing rather than any specific acts of perversion... aside from the whole really wanting to do it on the GM's part, which is, after all, a much more nuanced thing than can generally be dealt with using general cases due to dependence upon style and player tolerances/expectations.

Though in this case I think the whole rapey overtones are the only thing that might cause any issue with the other players and this is Exalted, so I recall that there's already some of that as part of the setting so it might not be the same sort of deal as introducing the concept in a game of vanilla D&D.

[Leliel]

It's more an in general kind of thing rather than any specific acts of perversion... aside from the whole really wanting to do it on the GM's part, which is, after all, a much more nuanced thing than can generally be dealt with using general cases due to dependence upon style and player tolerances/expectations.

Though in this case I think the whole rapey overtones are the only thing that might cause any issue with the other players and this is Exalted, so I recall that there's already some of that as part of the setting so it might not be the same sort of deal as introducing the concept in a game of vanilla D&D.

Oh!

I'm sorry, I seriously didn't see the implications of a person who is literally attracted to and hates an enemy. Okay, I got "screwed-up", and "not a healthy relationship", but definitely not "rapey". Kojin just doesn't have those urges, and he's disgusted by the concept.

Though, it wouldn't be out of place, seeing as how we are playing loyalists (ie, working for the demons). Malfeas (Exalted Hell) is a savage place, and it's under of the dominion of even more screwed up beings (one is the literal Cosmic Principle of Lying, Cheating, and General Douchbaggery, and he's one of the weaker ones) and the other players have embraced the villain role (the most normal member of the Ring is a daughter of Adorjan*).

So yeah, bunch of psych cases over here. So "hate/love" is sort of accepted for Exalted villains.

*: One of the Yozis, and by far the most legitimately insane. For the record, she desires all people to be free from attachment...so she kills them, and let's the amnesia of reincarnation wash it away.

[tonberrian]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily call Adorjan the craziest of the bunch. All the Yozi (basically eldritch abominations who can only think and act within a certain proscribed mindset, unable to concieve of anything outside of it [like, say, defeat]; Yozis are a particular subgroup of Primordials who were castrated and trapped within the body of their leader, Malfeas - yes, he's a being and a place, most of the Yozis are) are crazy by human definitions. Adorjan just happens to be the one that all the other Yozis think is crazy.

Judging by the description, this particular character channels the themes of She Who Lives in Her Name and Kimbery. The latter was already described, and the former is a collection of just shy of 100,000 telekinetic spheres (she had a fit and broke three, this unmade most of reality) who thinks trifles like chaos and free will are stupid and should be eliminated, though she's willing to bow down to big brother Malfeas because he's the boss.

Edit: Oh, I should actually say something about the real topic. Umm, who's the unfortunate victim prospective lover ... unfortunate victim?

[Samurai Jill]

So, how do I roleplay Foe Yay, and the eventual realization that it exists?

The same way that you role-play any other genuine character motivation: by having the character do stuff/make sacrifices which demonstrate the sincerity of this motive.

Okay, your BBEG is secretly in love with one of the PCs. See, the thing is, if he's actually in love, that implies doing stuff to help the PC in question, if only surreptitiously or part of the time, rather than being a direct, 24/7 antagonist. There's no way to actually role-play a love/hate dynamic without some gestures of genuinely looking out for the other person.

What's driving the PCs to oppose this guy in the first place, or vice versa? How did these people meet? Do the love-interest and BBEG know eachother? Do you intend the BBEG to be smitten from the beginning, or at first sight, or have it develop gradually over time?

[Yukitsu]

Pick one player character.
Rest of party=obstacles for the 24/7 hours the psycho wants to spend with that PC.
Only thing that will make PC look at antagonist, and only the antagonist is to go all stab happy.

And if PC stands up for party instead of falling for the perpetual creepy of the antagonist, if antagonist can't have PC, then no one can have the PC!

[Samurai Jill]

And if PC stands up for party instead of falling for the perpetual creepy of the antagonist, if antagonist can't have PC, then no one can have the PC!

I... really don't think that the PC falling for the antagonist is very likely if it involves screwing over all the rest of the party. I mean, unless you lead up to this very gradually and invest a lot of effort in making the antagonist seem a genuinely sympathetic fellow (after a fashion.)

I mean, are we talking about Dracula from the '92 remake or Asami from Audition?

Look, the point I'm making is that there is nothing you can do to make the antagonist's affections seem sincere and still maintain him as a surefire antagonist (in the sense that the party will reliably oppose him.) You're trying to create a point of dramatic tension here, and dramatic tension cannot be reconciled with predictable outcomes in an interactive medium.

[tonberrian]

The way I read it, this is a protagonist that Leliel's playing. That changes a few things.

[Leliel]

...Guys?

I'm playing the BBEG. The PCs are playing other BBEGs. We happen to work for the BBEGs of the setting, or at least a significant faction.

Besides, this is really just a spur-of-the-moment idea, one that I'm examining whether to pursue or not. And this is supposed to be what sets him off on the long path to redemption when he realizes why he's acting that way (namely, what his powers are doing to his mindset).

Also, the prime candidate for his increasingly poisonous affections is his Lunar Mate (a single shapeshifter which is bound heart and soul to him-whether that be love or loathing).

[Samurai Jill]

...Guys?

I'm playing the BBEG. The PCs are playing other BBEGs. We happen to work for the BBEGs of the setting, or at least a significant faction.

Then in what sense are you talking about a 'nemesis' of the PC love-interest, any more than the rest of the PCs would be potential rivals? What is motivating the party to oppose this guy?

Besides, this is really just a spur-of-the-moment idea, one that I'm examining whether to pursue or not. And this is supposed to be what sets him off on the long path to redemption when he realizes why he's acting that way (namely, what his powers are doing to his mindset).

Again, I feel this is trying to combine dramatic tension with predictable outcomes, and that is very unlikely to work. It could work out that way, but that depends on how the PCs respond to his actions when the 'right' response isn't clear.

Okay, you want this 'nemesis' to have a love-hate relationship with the PC. So answer the questions. Why did/How does this happen? And what actions is the guy prepared to take to demonstrate his affection? What is he actually gonna do about it?

[Tael]

...Guys?

I'm playing the BBEG. The PCs are playing other BBEGs. We happen to work for the BBEGs of the setting, or at least a significant faction.

You're just playing Abyssals right? Not exactly BBEGs, more like somewhere in-between Lieutenants and the Dragon.

Also, what interaction has your Defiler actually had with Kimbery thus far?

[TheCountAlucard]

You're just playing Abyssals right?

Infernals - Defiler is a Caste of Infernal. Also, by default, I'd call Infernals more along the line of "Hell's Rockstars" than BBEGs, but then again, I've been hanging around forums too much...

[Tael]

Infernals - Defiler is a Caste of Infernal. Also, by default, I'd call Infernals more along the line of "Hell's Rockstars" than BBEGs, but then again, I've been hanging around forums too much...

/facepalm

Right, how did I get that mixed up again?

[MarkusWolfe]

Alright, someone needs to make this clear to me: what kind of sexually tense enemy relationships are we talking about here? Are we talking about the CG barbarian and the wicked sorceress babe, the dashing thief/conman/hero of the people and the greedy countess with expensive jewelery, the devout priest and the seductive heretic.......throw me a bone here.

[Leliel]

Alright, someone needs to make this clear to me: what kind of sexually tense enemy relationships are we talking about here? Are we talking about the CG barbarian and the wicked sorceress babe, the dashing thief/conman/hero of the people and the greedy countess with expensive jewelery, the devout priest and the seductive heretic.......throw me a bone here.

The savage-but-noble lycanthropic social engineer, and the brilliant-but-amoral mad scientist working desperately to save humanity from the demonic invasion he heralds.

Yes, Exalted is weird like that.

[MarkusWolfe]

The savage-but-noble lycanthropic social engineer, and the brilliant-but-amoral mad scientist working desperately to save humanity from the demonic invasion he heralds.

Yes, Exalted is weird like that.

......well, that's a new one.

Um......might I suggest that the scientist wants to capture her for 'experiments'? Dare I even say he wants to see if she's 'worthy breeding stock' for him?

[Silverlich]

Yeah, I speak TVTropes, just not when pidgined with Exalted.

Can i sig this?

[Yukitsu]

I... really don't think that the PC falling for the antagonist is very likely if it involves screwing over all the rest of the party. I mean, unless you lead up to this very gradually and invest a lot of effort in making the antagonist seem a genuinely sympathetic fellow (after a fashion.)

Yandere is at its best when they have an excuse to get stab happy to their individual of affection.

[Coidzor]

...Guys?

I'm playing the BBEG. The PCs are playing other BBEGs. We happen to work for the BBEGs of the setting, or at least a significant faction.

...Ok, I'm-a stop you right there for misusing the language and just muddling things up.

[MarkusWolfe]

...Guys?

I'm playing the BBEG. The PCs are playing other BBEGs. We happen to work for the BBEGs of the setting, or at least a significant faction.

THAT IS NOT HOW THE DEFINITION OF BBEG WORKS.

[Tael]

Indeed, Infernals are definitely not the top dogs of evil. You could call the Yozis a group of BBEGs, but definitely not the Infernals, especially as there should be almost 50 of them at any one time.

In any case, people get the point. You're evil.

Also, still need more background. How much interaction has your Defiler actually had with Kimbery so far, and what has it consisted of?

[Leliel]

Well, they still don't really trust each other-Kimbery actually used him as the first Infernal ever to favor her Charms, and she's still not sure if it was a good idea-not because he's shown a lack of loyalty, it's just how she is.

The first experience he had with her powers was using them to vivisect an Abyssal. Yeah, he really doesn't see the problem with growing shoggoth tentacles and summoning kaiju.