"You mean I don't have to roll a new character!?!": An Alternate Take on PC Death

[DabblerWizard]

In a recent thread concerning character death, I posted the following statements (slightly edited here) about my way of integrating death into a character's story, where it's essentially just another part of the adventure.

Please lend me your thoughts.

I just want to point out that PC death doesn't have to mean the end of the character.

In my campaign, which is based in d&d 4E, I set up the notion that (most) PCs that die would descend to the Shadowfell. This is partially based on the lore given in the texts. You can certainly insert whatever other afterlife you want.

This way, a player could still play their character, though they'd end up taking on their own mini-adventure to try and get back to the mortal plane, assuming that was their goal.

Also, the Shadowfell as I conceived it, wasn't just inert. For instance, there would be soul-slavers who would try to enslave the PC.

Super high level PCs would have an easier time of getting back from death, if they so choose... or perhaps they should have a harder time of it? Something to think about.

As an addendum, deva (which are a 4e PC race) wouldn't descend to the Shadowfell, being directly connected to the astral plane and the deity that gave them permission to enter the material plane.

[Masaioh]

In low-level games I just introduce the PC's long-lost twin brother/sister. Same character sheet, new name. Repeat as often as necessary.

In high-level games the party goes on a sidequest to rez the PC or just abandons him, in which case the player rolls a new character.

[Weasel of Doom]

@Dabbler

I think that's a really good way of running things if the pcs don't want to roll another character or continuity would be upset by a new character joining.

I tend to play Dark Heresy (set in the distant future of Warhammer 40k) and part of that system (to compensate for the potential lethality of combats) is that each character has a set of Fate Points which can be 'burnt' to avoid death. Avoiding death can be as simple as having the last plasma cannon shot miss but sometimes it has to be a bit more elaborate. Burning the fatepoint could result in the character being rebuilt from scraps of nervous tissue as a cyborg (with vat-grown organs, steel plating over their body and fairly substantial SAN loss) or a pact with a demon (at the cost of the character's soul and a large risk of execution for heresy by the party if they find out).

@Masaioh I'd find the long-lost twin method really destructive to the story but I guess it could work if the game wasn't too serious. Doesn't the complete lack of danger detract from the game though? The character's know they can just come back as a twin so where's the risk in anything?

[Urpriest]

The whole "quest to come back to life" thing is fun, but it gets gimmicky if it happens more than once, especially if it doesn't tend to happen to NPCs. It's also a poor choice for 4e, where the system is team-based enough that combat really doesn't work properly for a solo quest.

[DabblerWizard]

Thank you, Weasel of Doom. Being upset about re-rolling is one reason I came up with this. My players are sensitive.

Masaioh, pulling out the twin-character gig would be too gimmicky for my serious-minded players. Resurrection in my campaign world is highly guarded by certain groups, and isn't easy to come by. Divine intervention might also come to pass as well.

The whole "quest to come back to life" thing is fun, but it gets gimmicky if it happens more than once, especially if it doesn't tend to happen to NPCs. It's also a poor choice for 4e, where the system is team-based enough that combat really doesn't work properly for a solo quest.

Coming back to life shouldn't be easy. In fact, I would make the whole experience kind of harrowing and intense. Some sort of bargain that might (i.e. would) bite the character later on, for instance. This would be especially true with lower level characters that don't have the power, resources, or prestige to get their way otherwise.

I would allow returning over and over, but I know that my players would do everything in their power to avoid character death, so this is less of a problem in my group.

Theoretically, I might bring about some sort of cosmic intervention, or major consequence if it happens multiple times.

NPCs could come back this way, but because many of them are not heroes, with the awesome-sauce to figure out how, it just isn't likely to happen, unless the NPC is themselves pretty great, and willing to return.

[EccentricCircle]

I like the idea of a dead character following along parrallel to the main group within the shadowfell, trying to steer them in the right direction while trying to get some sort of spell/ artefact/ person to return them to life. you could use characters with shadow step or similar abilities to go into shadow to speak with them and keep in touch, maybe they could figure out how to manifest like an ethereal creature can in 3.5. its a nice idea and will be a fun one to try at some point.

[gbprime]

I tend to tie plotlines to each PC, and as a result I don't like people's characters getting snuffed out. Death is easy to recover from in D+D when you're high level. At low levels, though, this takes some DM fiat.

I never just hand out a Raise Dead. That's lame. Instead, something or someone will intercede and make the character's life (or lack thereof) difficult. Things I have used in the past...

• A sword that captures the weilder's soul, allowing any raise/reincarnate/revivify to work with no level loss. The downside... it forces levels in a shadow soul PrC.
• The sands of the Kazath Desert do not give up their dead. The dead character is ethereal, following as the PC's cart his body off, but discovering he cannot leave the desert itself. Soon he is picked up by a patrol of the desert's ghostly inhabitants... as a slave.
• A demon who has been watching the PC's for some time offers to do him a favor and return him to life. Price to be named later...
• An artificer reanimates the PC using an alchemical process and (s)he is now a construct... who secretly cannot disobey their creator's orders.

Death... is never the end. You just WISH it was.

[Eldan]

Well, in high-level Eberron, you can beat someone out of Dolurrh.

In Planescape, which I normally play, you can either resurrect someone (amongst other things, but dumping their body into the right spot of the positive energy plane), or just visit them in their respective paradise. Though talking to petitioners is a bit dull.

My favourite alternative to dying is Ghostwalk, by the way.

[hoff]

I once had a character with 4 twins, I only used 3 of them though...

[valadil]

That's actually what happened in Herc's Adventures on PS1, which was a really underrated and underappreciated game. When you died you went to Hades and had to fight through skeletons to get out. Each time you died the fight out was harder and harder, until you eventually didn't make it. For all intents and purposes you had lives, since after 5ish deaths you weren't making it through again, but the flavor was so much cooler than just having another dude.

I think this would be more interesting if the setting was based on this option. Is this something that just the PCs can do or have people been returning from Shadowfell for centuries? If they have, I feel like that would be reflected by society somehow.

What about keeping someone dead? If you were assassinating someone in this universe, you'd probably want them to stay dead, right? Well why not put some people in Shadowfell who will fight to keep someone else there. I kinda like the image of these elite assassins who get themselves killed if only to keep someone else in Shadowfell. That might be a fun way to keep the party on their toes after everyone's been through Shadowfell and no longer impressed by death.

[DabblerWizard]

Eldan - Visiting the character might be an interesting morale boost, especially if the other characters could help the journey along. EccentricCircle, you seem to be saying something along that line of reasoning.

gbprime - I like all your suggestions.

Valadil's Quote

Spoiler

Show

That's actually what happened in Herc's Adventures on PS1, which was a really underrated and underappreciated game....

I think this would be more interesting if the setting was based on this option. Is this something that just the PCs can do or have people been returning from Shadowfell for centuries? If they have, I feel like that would be reflected by society somehow.

What about keeping someone dead? If you were assassinating someone in this universe, you'd probably want them to stay dead, right? Well why not put some people in Shadowfell who will fight to keep someone else there. I kinda like the image of these elite assassins who get themselves killed if only to keep someone else in Shadowfell. That might be a fun way to keep the party on their toes after everyone's been through Shadowfell and no longer impressed by death.

These are interesting points.

I conceive of the Shadowfell as a kind of limbo. "Real" death would occur after an unspecified time on the 'Fell, when the soul disintegrates and is reintegrated into the cosmos (i.e. the Astral Plane) as some sort of ether, assuming no intervention in the meanwhile. Most in-game mortal scholars have little to no understanding of this phenomenon. Deities and other super powerful beings might have knowledge of it, though.

Some beings, like the Raven Queen would take it upon themselves to intercede on this process, to capture souls, put individuals into indentured servitude for a time, in exchange for re-life, etc. This whole thing could become a major plot point in a high level story where characters are asked to fix the problem of a stalled cosmic-recycling.

I would say that the general mortal populous on the Material Plane has no knowledge of planar travel, partially out of magical ignorance, and partially because political figures want to keep them ignorant. If too many people knew that death wasn't "permanent", then these tyrannical rulers would have a weaker hold on the people. So, a relatively small number of people know that you can travel through planes at will, and an even smaller number die and come back to brag about it. In fact, I would say that most people who come back to live another day would try and keep it a secret: because (1) talking about it openly might bring unwanted attention from the government which wants to hide the fact, (2) many people just wouldn't believe them, (3) if the death was caused by a killing, the killers might still be alive, and ready to try a second time.

I really like the idea of Shadowfell assassins trying to stop souls from regaining their bodies. Luckily the Manual of the Planes brings up a number of interesting "natural" inhabitants on this plane, like the Shadar-Kai, who would make great assassins with good motivations, since they are indebted to the Raven Queen.

[Masaioh]

@Masaioh I'd find the long-lost twin method really destructive to the story but I guess it could work if the game wasn't too serious. Doesn't the complete lack of danger detract from the game though? The character's know they can just come back as a twin so where's the risk in anything?

It was for the first campaign I ran. Our orc barbarian got OHKO'd twice in the same session at...4-5th lvl IIRC. One of the deaths was at the hands of a troll who rolled a natural 20 on his greataxe. The convo went something like this:

Me: Uhhhh...how much HP do you have?
Him: 43
Me: You now have -17 HP. The troll sliced you in half.

Before you ask why his HP was so low for a barb, he was running a leadership build for some Orc-only Faerun PrC, and his secondary stat was Dex.

[Daftendirekt]

Eldan - Visiting the character might be an interesting morale boost, especially if the other characters could help the journey along. EccentricCircle, you seem to be saying something along that line of reasoning.

gbprime - I like all your suggestions.

Valadil's Quote

These are interesting points.

I conceive of the Shadowfell as a kind of limbo. "Real" death would occur after an unspecified time on the 'Fell, when the soul disintegrates and is reintegrated into the cosmos (i.e. the Astral Plane) as some sort of ether, assuming no intervention in the meanwhile. Most in-game mortal scholars have little to no understanding of this phenomenon. Deities and other super powerful beings might have knowledge of it, though.

Some beings, like the Raven Queen would take it upon themselves to intercede on this process, to capture souls, put individuals into indentured servitude for a time, in exchange for re-life, etc. This whole thing could become a major plot point in a high level story where characters are asked to fix the problem of a stalled cosmic-recycling.

I would say that the general mortal populous on the Material Plane has no knowledge of planar travel, partially out of magical ignorance, and partially because political figures want to keep them ignorant. If too many people knew that death wasn't "permanent", then these tyrannical rulers would have a weaker hold on the people. So, a relatively small number of people know that you can travel through planes at will, and an even smaller number die and come back to brag about it. In fact, I would say that most people who come back to live another day would try and keep it a secret: because (1) talking about it openly might bring unwanted attention from the government which wants to hide the fact, (2) many people just wouldn't believe them, (3) if the death was caused by a killing, the killers might still be alive, and ready to try a second time.

I really like the idea of Shadowfell assassins trying to stop souls from regaining their bodies. Luckily the Manual of the Planes brings up a number of interesting "natural" inhabitants on this plane, like the Shadar-Kai, who would make great assassins with good motivations, since they are indebted to the Raven Queen.

I'm not sure why you think the Raven Queen would give anybody "relife" or a second chance or anything. That is completely against her dogma. To quote the compendium:

"She expects her followers to:
* Hold no pity for those who suffer and die, for death is the natural end of life.
* Bring down the proud who try to cast off the chains of fate. As the instrument of the Raven Queen, you must punish hubris where you find it.
* Watch for the cults of Orcus and stamp them out whenever they arise. The Demon Prince of the Undead seeks to claim the Raven Queen’s throne."

Also, "She marks the end of each mortal life, and mourners call upon her during funeral rites, in the hope that she will guard the departed from the curse of undeath."

[Urpriest]

@Annulus: Revenants are kind of a precedent.

[stainboy]

My favourite alternative to dying is Ghostwalk, by the way.

@DabblerWizard: Ghostwalk is a lot like what you're describing. It's 3.5 but it might be useful for fluff or a homebrew adaptation.

[DabblerWizard]

@DabblerWizard: Ghostwalk is a lot like what you're describing. It's 3.5 but it might be useful for fluff or a homebrew adaptation.

Could you describe the fluff of how this works stainboy?

Annulus, most of my precedent for how the Raven Queen acts has to do with my memory of my reading of the 4e books that I own. This is to say that I don't have the compendium, and that I'm going off of my memory.

[Taking time to look through Open Grave, PHB 1, and Manual of the Planes]

I can see where you're coming from Annulus. However, since the Raven Queen's home is housed in the Shadowfell, which is essentially a place of death, I could see her taking a new stance on death once souls are actually without their bodies. At least, this is how I'm deciding to fluff things.

The motivation could be: "Don't mind dying my little pretties. I'll make death seem appealing because I want you to reach my abode in the 'Fell, at which point I plan to X,Y,Z..." She could try to monopolize a kind of hideous "soul trade" towards whatever end.

Also, she might consider undeath a curse, but that doesn't mean that regular death is a curse in her eyes.

[Zaranthan]

I'm not sure why you think the Raven Queen would give anybody "relife" or a second chance or anything. That is completely against her dogma.

Just an aside: one of the things people tend to lose sight of when designing fantasy worlds is that mythology is supposed to be comprised of MYTHS. Sure, the church of the Raven Queen might BELIEVE that's her thing, and it might be close enough to her actual ideals that she draws strength from their prayers, but it might all just be a sham to produce souls of a certain attitude to fit into her true plans. Dabbler's soul trade scheme is an excellent example. Convince the populace that being brought back from death is a bad thing, and you won't have all those mourning parents begging for their children back.

[BRC]

I tend not to kill off player characters. If I did, I would hope to avoid the simple "Find a temple, pay lots of money" method of bringing them back. Maybe something would approach the dead character, offering to revive them if they performed some service. Or there would be an adventure where the dead character, operating as a ghost, and the living party need to work together to bring the dead character back.

[DabblerWizard]

BRC - Operating as a ghost PC is interesting. I haven't figured out how spirits function in the campaign. Talk about astral projection, though! ... or more like... Shadow' Projection! ... Some sort of being allows you to have a temporary "presence" on the Material Plane for a price... Something to think about.

Zaranthan - Mythology has a definite historical precedent that can be nice to consider. Anybody who studies the Classics will encounter Greek / Roman stories about deities and the like. We may call those stories "myths" today, but around the time that they were created and employed "world wide", these stories and beliefs were more or less considered fact, while even older tales took on the title of "myth".

Considering this, you bring up a good point having to do with a sort of epistemological trickle down effect. The knowledge / facts that I consider true, are based in a set of beliefs that have been handed to me by some authority. Where did that authority get those facts, how reliable are they, how reliable is the source? Where did that source get those facts, how much have they changed, what was the source's source? This applies directly to the way NPCs understand their world.

In some respect, I'm referring to a kind of post-modernism. What's considered truth is really dependent on the one holding the truth in mind. What I believe is what is "real".

Is the high priest correct about his beliefs about the Raven Queen? How about the Raven Queen's thralls, or the deity herself? Each of these people, and others, might be "correct" about some element of the "real" truth. Maybe the Raven Queen is mistaken as well!

[navar100]

I use "karma points". When a player does something outstanding, whether a role playing moment, a game mechanics maneuver, a big risk that pays off - something that makes me impressed, I give the character a karma point. Karma points are used as "Get Out Of Jail Free cards".

If at some future event the player does something stupid and realized he screwed up, he can spend a karma point to undo it. The game reshapes itself as if the player never did his stupid thing. Recently a player ignored/did not realize it was applicable a warning given by an NPC resulting in his character getting Cursed of -2 to all attack rolls, permanently. He spent his karma point to say he never did the action that got him Cursed.

If a character dies, he spends his karma point to live. Another player in an earlier session had his character die in combat against an elemental. He spent his karma point so that he was stable and unconscious instead.

If a player is lost, either literally for his character or figuratively he inadvertently fell off the adventure goal path he wanted, he can spend a karma point for a deus ex machina. Early in the campaign the party stranded themselves in the middle of nowhere, having lost their horses and choosing not to partake of the adventure hook of the cause for their losing their horses. They knew who took their horses. They just chose not to pursue the matter. One player spending a karma point, coincidentally a caravan happened by that could lead them to civilization.

[Odin the Ignoble]

If the characters get shunted to the Shadowfell, you might want to have them encounter other major NPCs. Especially if they died in the middle of a major combat.

The trip back could get harder the more npc villains the party has killed.

[DabblerWizard]

Your point is well received Odin the Ignoble. It'd be like Survivor: Redemption Island (for you folks watching American TV). Brilliant! NPCs that appear to die and come back for more!

I had this sort of thing happen when the players faced a vampire muse. This creature had fluff that allowed it to live on as long as the blood of its mortal beneficiary was unharmed, much like a phylactery. They were displeased to learn that the vampire hadn't died when they "killed" it. They rolled with it and the story moved forward.

Navar100, I've definitely thought about allowing players some sort of "karma points" type mechanic. Though, being a guy that grew up with Super Nintendo, I imagined giving them a once-a-game reset button. I'd even be super nice and let them choose where they'd start from in the story. They were so protective of their characters, that I never had to use it.

[stainboy]

Could you describe the fluff of how this works stainboy?

(Working from memory here, so I may get stuff wrong.)


Fluff - There's a city at the gate to the afterlife. Ghosts walk there before passing on to their final reward/punishment/whatever; no one actually knows what's on the other side of the gate. Some ghosts stay in the town. Resurrection is quite common there.

In a Ghostwalk campaign the PCs constantly die and get resurrected. If you're dead at the moment, you're a ghost, and you're still a functioning member of the party. The DM is encouraged to mercilessly kill PCs to send them through the revolving door as often as possible.

Because everyone in the setting is doing this (you're assumed to play in that one city), it's not a huge deal for PCs to be incorporeal, because its easy to structure encounters with a mix of corporeal and incorporeal opponents.


Mechanics - Ghosts advance in two classes called Eidolon and Eidolomancer. Those classes give ghosty powers, obviously. (If you know 3e they're completely generic classes - Eidolon is basically a fighter, Eidolomancer is squishier and advances another spellcasting class.) If you get resurrected you cash in your Eidolon/Eidolomancer levels for levels in a regular class. If you ever have more Eidolon/Eidolomancer levels than regular class levels you die for real and walk through the portal to the afterlife.

If you wanted to port this to 4e you'd probably handle the Eidolon/Eidolomancer thing by replacing powers rather than changing class.

[BayardSPSR]

All these ideas are cool; I can't really add to them in a meaningful way (I use fate points too).

However, I do have a suggestion: keep a way to bring the PC back in the event of death (ideally not just a Raise Dead) - as in real death, not fate-point dodged...

But don't tell the players. Keep the fear of death and the unknown in them by making them think it is the end. You do want them to be afraid, right?

That is the extent of my suggestion.

[Jan Mattys]

The story:

Spoiler

Show

In a long campaign I played with my group, my character (a neutral evil assassin) died a couple sessions before we were forced to enter Hell to retrieve a McGuffin.

My DM told me I was dead, and that was apparently it. I kept going to the roleplay meetings waiting for a chance to be resurrected, and everybody was focused on bringing me back one way or another.

Meanwhile, the DM told the group that I was temporarily appointed with playing a NPC, their guide through Hell (a cloaked figure similar to Virgil in Dante's Inferno).

Secretly, my DM had informed me that the cloaked figure was, in effect, my old character, who had bargained with the devils a way out of Hell. The point was to be their guide through, but at the same time trying to arrange the death of a PC because, in order to leave Hell, I had to pay with another soul.

So I played the mysterious guide for a couple sessions, at the same trying to bring my group to the mcguffin and back out of Hell AND planning the death of another member of the group so that I could get out of Hell instead of him.

It was awesome.

In the end, with a move that granted me much respect from the DM and the other players, I managed to sacrifice the sentient sword of our fighter (a very, very powerful sword firing fireballs with an ancient wizard's soul trapped in it), assuming it could count as a "soul" too. My DM was caught by surprise, but ruled it made sense.

So all the party managed to get back to safety, and everybody loved me for it. Except for the fighter, who was very fond of his sword and grew to hate my guts even more than before :D (but the player had to admit it was a great move by my part... surely better than to simply slit someone's throat while in Hell).

Just my two cents to show how my DM improvised on the spot a GREAT way to turn my original death into a very interesting situation that I was forced to roleplay out of. Everybody was a winner.

[DabblerWizard]

I like that idea Jan Mattys.

All these ideas are cool; I can't really add to them in a meaningful way (I use fate points too).

However, I do have a suggestion: keep a way to bring the PC back in the event of death (ideally not just a Raise Dead) - as in real death, not fate-point dodged...

But don't tell the players. Keep the fear of death and the unknown in them by making them think it is the end. You do want them to be afraid, right?

That is the extent of my suggestion.

The cat's already out of the bag on this one. They know I'd keep letting them play after their character's death. Unfortunately, not telling them they can keep playing would mean that they would start making a new character and or throwing a hissy fit for a few hours. Some of these players have even painted their own minis from scratch. Worked on back story for hours. Talking like and thinking as the character. They've done everything short of evolving into the character.

I would let them decide when to end their character's reign, instead of me imposing it on them.

To differentiate this: I don't mind if the character is afraid of death. That's appropriate. However, my players won't necessarily be afraid. They're good about keeping knowledge in-game vs. out of game.

[Tengu_temp]

Here's how I like this: PCs downed in normal combat are never dead. Instead they're knocked out or heavily incapacitated and dying, enough to survive when they get help from the others after the combat ends. And readily available means of returning back to life don't exist. If someone dies, they're dead for good. Character death, be it PC or important NPC, should be a dramatic event and not something that can be easily reversible.

[Jay R]

My usual solution is something like this: "This is a game, in which it is possible to win, and possible to lose. That means characters can complete quests, and characters can die. If you're not mature enough to play that way, you need to avoid games for older kids that include the possibility of losing. Later on, when you're older, you can play these kinds of games, but for now, you're just not ready for games like D&D, Candy Land, and Hungry, Hungry Hippos."

[Tengu_temp]

So, in other words, your usual solution is arrogant and condescending towards players who don't share your gamist playstyle?

[Jamin]

My usual solution is something like this: "This is a game, in which it is possible to win, and possible to lose. That means characters can complete quests, and characters can die. If you're not mature enough to play that way, you need to avoid games for older kids that include the possibility of losing. Later on, when you're older, you can play these kinds of games, but for now, you're just not ready for games like D&D, Candy Land, and Hungry, Hungry Hippos."

Wow Do you tell this to peoples faces?