A couple of questions on publishing an RPG

[Talakeal]

After fifteen years of work I have nearly finished writing up my own homebrew RPG system, and I am seriously starting to think about publication. However I have run into a few technical problems and I was wondering if anyone had any experience publishing and RPG or could point me in the right direction.

1: Format
I need to make a decision on font size before working on the books layout. What is the smallest font size that people can read comfortably? Most RPGs I own seem to be 9 point font 1.5 line spacing. I currently have the book in 8 point font single spaced to save on paper, and although I don't have any problem reading it others seem to, and if I go newspaper style (11 pt font double spaced) the book will be close to a thousand pages long.

2: Art
How do I find illustrators or artists for the book? I can't draw myself, and the book will require a lot of illustration. I have found a few artists who take commissions at conventions, but they all seem to have problems meeting deadlines or following directions, especially with a large workload. I know there are plenty of artists out there, but how do I make contact with the ones who are right for me?

3: Play testers and Proofreaders
Now that the game is finished I need to find a group of people to play it and spot errors. My personal gaming group play tested my game extensively during the design phase, but that group recently broke up, and I need some virgin eyes to spot content problems in the rules, especially in the way they are written. It is very hard to find problems in the RAW when you have the RAI clearly in your mind.

If anyone has any experience or information with any of these problems, or advice in general, I would love to hear it.

[Towa]

1. 9pt font with 1.5 spacing sounds reasonable to me personally.
2. I can't really help you with that. Maybe someone in the Arts & Crafts section could though, but I dunno.
3. If you feel like putting it up on the internet, the Homebrew section of these forums (and probably other forums like it) could be hugely valuable, there are a lot of pretty smart people that seem to hang out there that would probably be happy to proofread stuff.

Hope that helps.

[Tvtyrant]

For number three ask a game shop to run it on a game night and see how people react. This will let you see how people play the game and how much they like it/what they like about it. You can also put it on the internet but you can't be sure anyone who says anything about it actually played it.

Finally you could pay some kids in sodas to try it out. Kids will do anything for snacks and they haven't realized the meaning of material value.

[Talakeal]

Thanks for the help. Good idea about the arts and crafts section, I will check there.

Unfortunately I think I need a more thorough play testing that what I could get running a single session at a game store, although it might be a good way to meet players.

As for children, I think my game is intended for a more mature crowd. Besides, I don't know any children, and might get in trouble trying to recruit some...

Putting the game out on the internet is a good idea in theory, but do you know how to do it safely? Once you have the rules out there for free, how do you control the spread of it? Also the trouble of getting the book to the right play testers, I find that most internet gamers are just out there to flame every system but the one they love.

[Knaight]

Putting the game out on the internet is a good idea in theory, but do you know how to do it safely? Once you have the rules out there for free, how do you control the spread of it? Also the trouble of getting the book to the right play testers, I find that most internet gamers are just out there to flame every system but the one they love.

If you release a game, piracy options are pretty much inevitable. You are basically counting on people who either a) oppose piracy or b) think your game is good enough that you deserve to be paid despite the option for piracy to pay you. That said, the internet playtesting version doesn't need art.

As for internet gamers flaming every system but the one they love, the vast majority of feed back will be useless. Focus on what little isn't.

[ClockShock]

On proof readers:
I recall a recent project advertised here wanting proof readers for the final stages of a translated rulebook. There seemed to be reasonable interest.

I believe the project people were issuing the book in chunks - this might help with your worry about people having the rulebook for free.
(note that this is a trade-off though, a proof-reader will be better if they have other parts of the rule to compare with)

Further to the rules for free - it's an issue that plagues everyone trying to publish these kinds of things. Without first-hand experience, i'd recommend clearly stating your intentions (and maybe a watermark or two)
Would it be unreasonable for someone to have a copy of the rules if they help you bring it to publishing stage? If they try and distribute it themselves copyright law is on your side.

As for Artists:
Be clear in your intentions, your deadlines, and the importance of following guidelines. (though on the guidelines, i try to take the artist's opinions on board, i too cannot draw and tend to trust their artistic judgement over mine)
I assume you're paying for this artwork? The clearer you can be from the start the less chance of wasting time and money (for both the artist and you)
Be polite and if they are unable to meet your requirements ask if they can point you towards other potential artists.
Keep asking if people know other potential artists.
Do you know any potential artists?

[Tyndmyr]

Putting the game out on the internet is a good idea in theory, but do you know how to do it safely? Once you have the rules out there for free, how do you control the spread of it? Also the trouble of getting the book to the right play testers, I find that most internet gamers are just out there to flame every system but the one they love.

The only way to absolutely control the spread of a product is to
A: Not sell it.
or
B: Make it so bad nobody cares about it.

Scanners are inexpensive and common. If it's popular at all, sooner or later, someone will scan it in and toss up a torrent. Technologically, there's no way to stop this. Legally...possibly. If you have the money to pay a giant legal team. I'm no lawyer, but I do know that they don't come cheap. It's not likely practical.

So, embrace it. Put up an SRD-like product. The people who pirate...ignore them. They are unlikely to ever be helpful to you. Pay attention to the people who buy things.

[UserClone]

As one of the aforementioned proofreaders, I can say we have signed a NDA and have been contracted a free hard copy of the game when it's finished being translated. Therefore, very little motivation exists to just take the unfinished product, even if it weren't in discrete chunks.

[Nero24200]

For type I'd go with 10-Point minimum. Also it's generally not a good idea to use decimal's when working with type (I.E using a type that's 9.5pt). It may seem fine to begin with but problems usually arise. Sometimes not but why risk it for 0.5pt?

As for artists there are a few things you could do - Try art websites (like deviant art). Find existing art you like and ask to use that. As for commissions - how long are your deadlines? Art can take a while so it's possible your deadlines are too short.

But remember as well that any professional should try their best to meet the deadline, so if you're getting more excuses than finished pieces you might be better off with different artists.

[Talakeal]

Right now it's looking like either 11 point single spaced or 9 point one and a half spaced fonts are the best choices. Both have some upsides and downsides. I would prefer eleven point 1.5 space, but that would make the book simply too large to publish. The largest RPG book I have ever seen is about 600 pages, and most publishers won't do anything larger than 800.

As for artists, I would prefer to have everything commissioned so I can keep a consistent look and feel to the game, as I believe that is very important for an RPG.

The two artists I have hired so far I met at cons. One of them I hired to do a large piece, and they lost the directions / order form, and when they finally got it back to me it was nothing like what I wanted.
The other I hired to do a collection of smaller pieces and was given a six month time estimate. It is now over 2 years later and still have nothing to show for it, although I am assured it is still being worked on.
In both cases I paid up front.

[Knaight]

Right now it's looking like either 11 point single spaced or 9 point one and a half spaced fonts are the best choices. Both have some upsides and downsides. I would prefer eleven point 1.5 space, but that would make the book simply too large to publish. The largest RPG book I have ever seen is about 600 pages, and most publishers won't do anything larger than 800.

If you can edit this down without removing content, do so. If that isn't an option, you can always try splitting everything into two books, though that makes it somewhat harder to sell.

The two artists I have hired so far I met at cons. One of them I hired to do a large piece, and they lost the directions / order form, and when they finally got it back to me it was nothing like what I wanted. The other I hired to do a collection of smaller pieces and was given a six month time estimate. It is now over 2 years later and still have nothing to show for it, although I am assured it is still being worked on.
In both cases I paid up front.

Don't pay entirely up front if you can avoid it. I'd try art websites, particularly if you can find someone relatively local who does art in the style you need.

[FatJose]

As for artists, I would prefer to have everything commissioned so I can keep a consistent look and feel to the game, as I believe that is very important for an RPG.

The two artists I have hired so far I met at cons. One of them I hired to do a large piece, and they lost the directions / order form, and when they finally got it back to me it was nothing like what I wanted.
The other I hired to do a collection of smaller pieces and was given a six month time estimate. It is now over 2 years later and still have nothing to show for it, although I am assured it is still being worked on.
In both cases I paid up front.

Ooh, well...I'm an artist! Haven't yet found any work in the field, though. I could do a few pieces on the house. Um, I can pm you my deviantart account...Actually...It's just fatjose.deviantart.com .... >.>

[Mutazoia]

There is a web forum dedicated to game design and publishing. I can't find my link at the moment ...I'll edit this when I can.

[UserClone]

The Forge, perhaps?

Or maybe Story Games?

[conaniscool]

I'm an artist. Here's my GF's char:



I enjoy drawing fantasy characters and creatures of all types. Lemme kno. Peace.

[LibraryOgre]

1: Format
I need to make a decision on font size before working on the books layout. What is the smallest font size that people can read comfortably? Most RPGs I own seem to be 9 point font 1.5 line spacing. I currently have the book in 8 point font single spaced to save on paper, and although I don't have any problem reading it others seem to, and if I go newspaper style (11 pt font double spaced) the book will be close to a thousand pages long.

I'd stick with about 9pt, myself, but I'm horrible at fonts... I tend to find most of the arguments about them incomprehensible.

2: Art
How do I find illustrators or artists for the book? I can't draw myself, and the book will require a lot of illustration. I have found a few artists who take commissions at conventions, but they all seem to have problems meeting deadlines or following directions, especially with a large workload. I know there are plenty of artists out there, but how do I make contact with the ones who are right for me?

I have some names and contact info of freelance professionals, if you're interested, but I'm not sure about their rates. I can also think of one publisher I could ask about his artists. PM me if you're interested; I'll gather some names, and give them your contact information (I prefer to give them your information, and leave the contacting in their court).

You might also try trolling deviantart, looking for the right "style", but I'd talk to some professionals, first, to see what their rates are; I have heard (but do not know) that some folks on deviantart price themselves completely out of the market.

3: Play testers and Proofreaders
Now that the game is finished I need to find a group of people to play it and spot errors. My personal gaming group play tested my game extensively during the design phase, but that group recently broke up, and I need some virgin eyes to spot content problems in the rules, especially in the way they are written. It is very hard to find problems in the RAW when you have the RAI clearly in your mind.

One suggestion, here, is to find someone who is NOT a gamer to give it a once-over. You might try asking around college campuses for proof-reading rates... there's usually an English Major looking for some money, who will go through and edit it for you, and being a non-gamer will catch things that a gamer might take for granted, especially with regards to organization. Some things that gamers will take in stride, others will immediately notice. You'll also want some gamer proof-readers to deal with the RAI v RAW issue, but a lot of people forget basic readability.

[Sipex]

To be honest, from the sounds of things you have something which is ready to present to a publisher or a game company. Make sure to get it copyrighted first though.

From there they'll review the game, tell you what it needs, possibly offer their own resources if they like the game (for play testing and illustration) and then have you go from there.

edit: This is going with the assumption that you just want your game published and you aren't looking to create an independant company out of it.

[randomhero00]

I'd like to try out for your artist. I've already published a picture (and poetry if you want any of that) for a fantasy book. I guess PM me and I'll send you my email then send me the details.

PS a cheap and easy way to "copyright" is to send yourself the manuscript in the mail. Since it has a date stamped on it after you send it no one can dispute it in court that they had wrote it first. I am also working on a novel and know a couple authors personally.

[EccentricCircle]

On the font size issue too large is always going to be preferable to too small.
I am partially sighted and so find tiny font sizes to be a real problem when trying to find stuff quickly in gaming books.

[randomhero00]

On the font size issue too large is always going to be preferable to too small.
I am partially sighted and so find tiny font sizes to be a real problem when trying to find stuff quickly in gaming books.

I agree, I'd say at least 10 if not 11 or 12. But your publisher (if you can get one) will have a say.

[Talakeal]

Thank you for all of the help, I really appreciate it. I am really busy right now, I have finals this week and will be moving over the weekend, but I will contact everyone who posted here or PMed me about Art when I get a chance, probably the start of next week. Thank you again.

[Tyndmyr]

I
PS a cheap and easy way to "copyright" is to send yourself the manuscript in the mail. Since it has a date stamped on it after you send it no one can dispute it in court that they had wrote it first. I am also working on a novel and know a couple authors personally.

This is a common myth. It has no legal standing. You could, after all, send yourself a package at any time, and seal it later. If you want a copyright, contact the US patent office. They have an excellent web site. If you need more detailed advice, seek out a lawyer specializing in patent law.

On the topic of a solid artist...yeah. I occasionally have projects that require art assets, and it's been remarkably hard to find anyone willing to do decent art. I've had significant problems with finding artists with even basic competency. I've had things turned in like random clip-art with pixelated words slapped over them, apparently in paint. There's also the people that just fall out of touch and you never hear from them again. I've yet to find the magic way to get good artists(even when paying reasonable rates), but I'll admit that the respondents in this thread look to be decent.

[Mutazoia]

The Forge, perhaps?

Or maybe Story Games?

That could be it. (the Forge) I haven't been on there in a while but it looks familiar lol.

[Knaight]

For art there is a man by the name of Keith Curtis who does commisions for, among other things, RPGs. I've seen his work elsewhere, and it is both very impressive and in a variety of styles.

[Mutazoia]

This is a common myth. It has no legal standing. You could, after all, send yourself a package at any time, and seal it later. If you want a copyright, contact the US patent office. They have an excellent web site. If you need more detailed advice, seek out a lawyer specializing in patent law.

I suggest reading this site. The only thing a poor man's copy right is good for is a head-ache.

Basically your work is copyrighted the moment you finish it, but proving your time-line should the need arise can be troublesome. This is where the myth of the PMCR came about. It was reasoned that since the envelope had a post mark date on it, that would establish a date of completion for your work. However it is pretty easy to fake a PMCR (the site I linked show's a method or two), making it pretty much a waste of time at best.

[Mutazoia]

1. 9pt font with 1.5 spacing sounds reasonable to me personally.
2. I can't really help you with that. Maybe someone in the Arts & Crafts section could though, but I dunno.
3. If you feel like putting it up on the internet, the Homebrew section of these forums (and probably other forums like it) could be hugely valuable, there are a lot of pretty smart people that seem to hang out there that would probably be happy to proofread stuff.

Hope that helps.

Check out THIS site...pretty basic info. Usually the publisher you submit your work to will have their own format they prefer, if not, then use the format on the link. The publisher will usually track down illustrators (most have some on payroll) unless there is some specific art you wish to include. As for play testers, that's what friends are for. If you are going to outsource the job, run your game through the copyright office first.

[Talakeal]

I was planning on self publishing actually. I don't think there are many Game Publishing companies that accept outside submissions, atleast if there are I haven't seen any (please correct me if I am wrong).

I am also not interested in selling the rights to my game, rather getting what I wrote published.

[LibraryOgre]

I was planning on self publishing actually. I don't think there are many Game Publishing companies that accept outside submissions, atleast if there are I haven't seen any (please correct me if I am wrong).

I am also not interested in selling the rights to my game, rather getting what I wrote published.

IME, most will not for a full game, but might for supplements for their own games.

[Mutazoia]

I was planning on self publishing actually. I don't think there are many Game Publishing companies that accept outside submissions, atleast if there are I haven't seen any (please correct me if I am wrong).

I am also not interested in selling the rights to my game, rather getting what I wrote published.

There are a plethora of companies out there that will help you self-publish your material. A simple google search will turn up companies such as The AuthorHouse, and Xlibris. I work in a print center and have worked with several people who have self-published books. The upside to self publishing is you get to keep all your royalties. The down side is you get to do all the work; Writing, layout, art, etc. Most self-publishing companies will have contacts to help with distribution.

I would suggest going the route of Monte Cook/Malhavic Press. They sell most of their stuff off of their web-site in PDF format. Customers can order a hard back copy of a game (such as Iron Heroes) or just the PDF format and then either print it themselves or just lug their laptop to game sessions (I do this frequently).

You would still have to do all the layout/design work as if you were going to print a hard copy, but you would only need to print a limited number of hard copies for the few people who order them. (there are bindery companies in every city that can do small runs for you so you don't have to keep a large stock on hand.)

Plus you have to design and maintain a web site.

[UserClone]

www.easybookbinding.com may be worth a look to you.