Naval Strategy - For PCs

[AsteriskAmp]

Now, strategy is something PCs are normally not associated with, being a rather small party, and using metagame knowledge as a strategy, and whatnot with group tactics developing normally over the course of few sessions.

And then there is Warfare, were there are several books about it and even RPG books exist. And sometimes the PCs do take knowledge in it and actively participate in it (I believe Oriental Adventures had a Knowledge[Warfare]).

However, a subject I've yet to find any literature in is not exactly Naval Warfare, but micro-strategy for it, as in ship to ship combat and boardings. This is also summed up with the fact that there is little hint into what strategies to consider when boarding or actually engaging in a battle overseas.

So I inquire, Is there any good reference book for this subset of naval strategy? Advice from those who are experienced on it, or have played campaigns heavily based around it, and finally, general to go tactics in micro-[naval warfare]

[Coidzor]

Actually running a ship-vs-ship battle that involves anything other than lines of ships advancing directly at one another is going to be a pain was the answer I always got.

Unworkable in the extreme cases when systems even tried to make rules for 'em.

[AsteriskAmp]

Actually running a ship-vs-ship battle that involves anything other than lines of ships advancing directly at one another is going to be a pain was the answer I always got.

Unworkable in the extreme cases when systems even tried to make rules for 'em.

I meant one ship against one or two, three tops, not really full scale naval warfare, micro-management and strategy for PCs on a ship, controlling it, being boarded or boarding themselves.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, I would say that, without actual CANNON, (the various arcane ballista options being quite expensive, and availability of many spells that could be bought instead making most naval tactics -- and indeed non flying ships -- obsolete means that naval battles happen in low magic settings), naval battles would be things like 'Ram their side with your prow, and make it a troop to troop 'land' battle by flooding their ship with infantry'.

So you would be doing what the Greeks did, mostly.

Really, a single resetting trap / minor schema / spell clock / wondrous item / etc. of a single 4th level spell means you have flying ships...

[Erik von Nein]

Have you checked out Stormwrack's Narrative Naval Combat section?

[Coidzor]

Best analogue I can think of would be the Ancient World's approach to sea battles.

[AsteriskAmp]

Have you checked out Stormwrack's Narrative Naval Combat section?

Yes, it doesn't have much in the way of strategy other than recommend you on being a pirate that throws crap into other peoples ship before boarding them, mind you, great for pirates, but not for PCs defending their ship, or trying a less EDIT: [Direct] approach.

[Coidzor]

or trying a less savage approach.

What?

Well, the most obvious thing is magic. That one Druid Spell that destroys cities, Blizzard or something like that, will take out a ship's rigging if not sink it.

Ships don't like having their rigging and masts destroyed or set on fire by lightning bolts.

Fireballs cause sails to go up like a light.

[AsteriskAmp]

What?

Well, the most obvious thing is magic. That one Druid Spell that destroys cities, Blizzard or something like that, will take out a ship's rigging if not sink it.

Ships don't like having their rigging and masts destroyed or set on fire by lightning bolts.

Fireballs cause sails to go up like a light.

Not according to many systems.
Ships aren't actually tinderboxes until gunpowder comes in but before metal is implemented.

Rigging and masts take time to be damaged, and from afar it's actually rather hard.

The Druid Spell is not that great against ships, I've looked through most of the spell lists, and apart from some cherry-picked spells, siege will always come on top.

[Toofey]

That's an elephant gun approach to an ant problem if we're talking about magic.

Grease can totally disable rigging (knots won't hold and the ropes can't be effectively manipulated) shrink/enlarge a ships Keel (the spine of the boat) and one way or the other the ship is sunk. web can stick two boats together, or hold together a clump of wreckage so the cargo from the now totally screwed enemy ship doesn't sink to the bottom. silence a ships bridge and the helmsman can't hear orders... the options are endless.

Now it's just a matter of time if you do any of these regularly until you see ships which are specifically protected against magic, but there's shockingly few options in the traditional D&D spell cannon to protect a ship (or anything other than a character) from minor magics.

[AsteriskAmp]

That's an elephant gun approach to an ant problem if we're talking about magic.

Grease can totally disable rigging (knots won't hold and the ropes can't be effectively manipulated) shrink/enlarge a ships Keel (the spine of the boat) and one way or the other the ship is sunk. web can stick two boats together, or hold together a clump of wreckage so the cargo from the now totally screwed enemy ship doesn't sink to the bottom. silence a ships bridge and the helmsman can't hear orders... the options are endless.

Now it's just a matter of time if you do any of these regularly until you see ships which are specifically protected against magic, but there's shockingly few options in the traditional D&D spell cannon to protect a ship (or anything other than a character) from minor magics.

Grease range, even if it could actually untie knots would make it useless, ships move around 50 ft. per round. So what is far in one round becomes impossibly close the next one.

As for shrink enlarge, the rules say the boat is one object whole, so you are screwed by volume.

As for silence, range, and area screw it. The area doesn't move, boats can, so it will only be useful for a round if moving (mind you that range already screws it). If static, there are no rules for the watch crew having to listen, for all you know they have enough experience to do usual stuff, even though manoeuvres would be questionable, navigation isn't hampered.

[Coidzor]

As for silence, range, and area screw it. The area doesn't move, boats can, so it will only be useful for a round if moving (mind you that range already screws it). If static, there are no rules for the watch crew having to listen, for all you know they have enough experience to do usual stuff, even though manoeuvres would be questionable, navigation isn't hampered.

You've hit the nail on the head why people don't like having to think about it as well.

Also, Wall of Fire so that the Ship has to pass through it will definitely set it ablaze.

Not according to many systems.
Ships aren't actually tinderboxes until gunpowder comes in but before metal is implemented.

Well, many systems of naval combat are not worth the paper they're printed on, so there's that.

Fire has been a solution to enemy ships that has been used to great effect for longer than gunpowder has existed and magic should easily equal greek fire's destructive capabilities.

Rigging and masts take time to be damaged, and from afar it's actually rather hard.

Considering they could get taken out by cannon and one can put one's spells where one wants them to be without DM fiat to nerf it, this is kind of an irrelevant point you're bringing up here unless you're talking the range of the spell being cast in which case I have to ask you what ranges you're actually wanting here because you seem to be putting an abritrary limiter that you didn't state.

[Shyftir]

Fire was horrible on ships wa-ay before gunpowder was involved. You see to make a ship watertight you have to use tremendous amounts of tar. Tar is highly flammable, therefore ships went up like lanterns before the gunpowder era they just didn't explode.

Also you can just rule that spells targeted on areas of the ship stay on that area of the ship.

[AsteriskAmp]

You've hit the nail on the head why people don't like having to think about it as well.

Also, Wall of Fire so that the Ship has to pass through it will definitely set it ablaze.

Stormwrack (in my opinion, the best source for marine combat in DnD, if not the only) lists:
Can start fires
Flaming Sphere
Fireball
Lightning Bolt


Can't start fires
Wall of Fire
Incendiary Cloud
Fire Storm
Flame Strike

Well, many systems of naval combat are not worth the paper they're printed on, so there's that.

Fire has been a solution to enemy ships that has been used to great effect for longer than gunpowder has existed and magic should easily equal greek fire's destructive capabilities.

I don't know much about greek fire, so I can't really counter here, but from what I've read, we actually know little of how it worked since it was forever lost and the Greek and Byzantine records are not the best sources.

Considering they could get taken out by cannon and one can put one's spells where one wants them to be without DM fiat to nerf it, this is kind of an irrelevant point you're bringing up here unless you're talking the range of the spell being cast in which case I have to ask you what ranges you're actually wanting here because you seem to be putting an abritrary limiter that you didn't state.

Range starts with (2d6+2)x100 ft. Close range in ship terms is around 50 ft. Otherwise you are talking about boarding, were some of the more useful looking spells become useless since there is little point in destroying it since well, you prioritize either boarding or holding.

[Coidzor]

Stormwrack (in my opinion, the best source for marine combat in DnD, if not the only) lists:
Can start fires
Flaming Sphere
Fireball
Lightning Bolt


Can't start fires
Wall of Fire
Incendiary Cloud
Fire Storm
Flame Strike

Well, sometimes the rules are, as they say, BS. Who'd've thunk it.

And if you're not talking D&D, then that's pretty irrelevant in the face of having the ship physically passing through a literal wall of fire with all of its wood and tar and oilcloth.

I don't know much about greek fire, so I can't really counter here, but from what I've read, we actually know little of how it worked since it was forever lost and the Greek and Byzantine records are not the best sources.

Irrelevant as I was talking about efficacy in destroying a ship, not replicating it perfectly. If magic can function as artillery at all, then it is the obvious answer barring actual artillery that out performs magic in this regard.

Not that greek fire was artillery as far as I've ever been able to find of what they think it might've been.

Range starts with (2d6+2)x100 ft. Close range in ship terms is around 50 ft. Otherwise you are talking about boarding, were some of the more useful looking spells become useless since there is little point in destroying it since well, you prioritize either boarding or holding.

Unless you close, cause it to founder and thus stop moving, and sail off as they drown like punks without ever getting the ability to board because they decided to go sailingdo anything in D&D ever without magical support.

And if you're not talking D&D, then, well...

[Mutazoia]

So I inquire, Is there any good reference book for this subset of naval strategy? Advice from those who are experienced on it, or have played campaigns heavily based around it, and finally, general to go tactics in micro-[naval warfare]

Well for reference I would look up the old spelljammer system, since ship to ship combat was the main staple. Also, if you can find it, the old "of ships and the sea" sauce for 2nd ed. the mechanics would need some converting but the general tactical info would help

As for experience....being a former sailor I can say yes...I do have some experience lol.

Tactics depend on your fleet make up (both sides).

In an FRPG you can usually sub magic for cannons. Other wise your going to be using mostly arrows to clear the decks before boarding, catapults and ballista for your artillery, so little direct fire (Ballistas will damage the rigging but won't be as effective against the hull).

[AsteriskAmp]

Unless you close, cause it to founder and thus stop moving, and sail off as they drown like punks without ever getting the ability to board because they decided to go sailingdo anything in D&D ever without magical support.

And if you're not talking D&D, then, well...

The amount of damage needed for sinking a ship is considerable since the hull has a lot of damage reductors, the only thigns dealing full damage to it are siege weapons and force spells. While you focus on the ship they are already boarding you.

Which takes me to the next point, how do you stop a boarding or handle it or protect YOUR ship from spells?

[Mutazoia]

Which takes me to the next point, how do you stop a boarding or handle it or protect YOUR ship from spells?

To stop/handle a boarding party
Archers (the same way musket fire would rake the opposing ship's deck before boarding)
Wall of X on your rails
Any "cloud" spell cast between the two ships
Reverse gravity (between ships or on the opposing ship's deck)
Wave of Fatigue/Exhaustion - can't ...swing...across....too....tired
Control Weather - hard to board a ship in a typhoon
Mass Hold person - 'nuff said
Grease - boarding ropes/planks, rails

to protect your ship from spells
Control Weather - a wet deck is a hard to light on fire deck
any kind of concealing spell to make you harder to target
move - ships in combat do not sail a straight line, change range, close when your ready to fire, far when your re-loading

to name a few

[Daftendirekt]

I don't know much about greek fire, so I can't really counter here, but from what I've read, we actually know little of how it worked since it was forever lost and the Greek and Byzantine records are not the best sources.

As I understand it, Greek fire pretty much = grease fire. Trying to put it out with water just made it worse.

So, cast Grease, throw a torch.

[AsteriskAmp]

As I understand it, Greek fire pretty much = grease fire. Trying to put it out with water just made it worse.

So, cast Grease, throw a torch.

Grease (as the spell) is non-flammable as far as I know.

[Yukitsu]

Generally, your best bet is to just outrun em'. And if you can't do that, outmanuever them with shoals, mist, around islands etc. And if you can't do that, throw harpoons tied to parachutes into their hull.

[Just_Ice]

Drop summoned bison from a height of 100 feet

that ship will be a crater

[Toofey]

Grease range, even if it could actually untie knots would make it useless, ships move around 50 ft. per round. So what is far in one round becomes impossibly close the next one.

the range is fine if you've closed with the other ship and are trying to prevent them from getting away.

As for shrink enlarge, the rules say the boat is one object whole, so you are screwed by volume.

I'm not familiar with any rules that define object, at least not in 2nd ed.

As for silence, range, and area screw it. The area doesn't move, boats can, so it will only be useful for a round if moving (mind you that range already screws it). If static, there are no rules for the watch crew having to listen, for all you know they have enough experience to do usual stuff, even though manoeuvres would be questionable, navigation isn't hampered.

Silence 15' as a ridiculous range (I was talking about the cleric spell as there is no wizard silence in 2nd ed)

My point was more that you think about what you can do with the effects of your spells, there's more than enough options at low levels that you can come up with specific uses for in a naval battle. It's not just fireball their rigging and call it a day.

[Coidzor]

The amount of damage needed for sinking a ship is considerable since the hull has a lot of damage reductors, the only thigns dealing full damage to it are siege weapons and force spells. While you focus on the ship they are already boarding you.

Which takes me to the next point, how do you stop a boarding or handle it or protect YOUR ship from spells?

If D&D 3.X:

A. X half-ogres with spiked chains per Y feet per side of the ship. Add in that one feat that stops people dead when they provoke an AoO. If they're swinging across, they stop, which means they fall into the water and are basically chum, otherwise, they help clog the way so that less of the enemy can get across, especially en masse.

B. Out-fight the blaggarts. By using at least pair or two of dragonfire inspiration bards or a dragonfire inspiration bard and a regular bard with wardrums you can give all of your guys within a large area have +X to hit and +xd6 to damage. Leadership mechanics can produce morale effects to carry the day.

Else:

Leadership mechanics and mass-buffs to give one's fighting men the edge.

Ship architecture and funneling so that your men can have more of them fighting less of the enemy as they attempt to board and other terrain advantages like giving the highground to an area just past the natural bottlenecks you build into the ship.

Soften them up so they can't stand up to you in a fight first.

Have better trained and armed men on your side and use them more efficiently.

The amount of damage needed for sinking a ship is considerable since the hull has a lot of damage reductors, the only thigns dealing full damage to it are siege weapons and force spells. While you focus on the ship they are already boarding you.

Also, that's the actions of one caster. Generally there's a party involved. I think the effort can be spared.

[_Zoot_]

The traditional way to prevent boarding was to not let the enemy get that close, if you couldn't do that, shoot them while they massed for their attack.

Failing that, out fight them, but there was no way of doing that well, it was a man to man fight.