[3.5] Epic Swashbuckler

[ffone]

The Swashbuckler base class (CW) has no epic progression - this thread is a query on how one would make one.

(Note that there may be no char-op need for one...it's considered a weak class on its own, and when used with the 'daring outlaw feat to stack rogue sneak attack, which seems to be the only reason people use the class, you might as well revert to rogue levels after 20th, since swashbuckler's better BAB becomes moot. The main benefit of an epic swashbuckler, presumably, would be to start getting epic bonus feats sooner, but the good 'sneak attacker' epic feats have various rogue special abilties as prereqs.)

Swashbuckler has d10 hit die, 4 + Int Skill points, and mostly 'acrobatic' class skills like balance, climb, jump, and tumble, plus a few feintish/social skills (bluff, sense motive, diplomacy.)

Its only 'repeating/regular' class features are a +1 AC dodge bonus every 5 levels (works just like the Dodge feat) and 'grace', a +1 to Reflex saves at 2nd, 11th, and 20th (aka every 9 levels).

Scanning the SRD epic class and prestige classes, Duelist looks the most comparable crunchwise: also d10, 4 + Int skill points, similar skill list, and one repeating class feature every 5 levels (+1d6 'precise strike' damage). Incidentally the flavor of the two classes is nearly identical (swashbucklerying pirate / Eroll Flynn chandelier swinger type).

So for an epic swashbuckler I would say:
like every other class, keeps the same hit die, skill points and skill list as its nonepic counterpart
Dodge bonus increases every 5 levels from 25th on
Grace bonus increases every 9 levels from 29 on (this is like getting the Epic Reflexes bonus feat every 36 levels)
Bonus epic feat every 3 levels from 23rd on, like the Duelist. Same bonus feat list, minus Exceptional Deflection (the Duelist got Deflect Arrows, and has a special version using a finesse weapon rather than an empty hand) and possibly Improved Whirlwind Attack (prereq ovelap with Duelist), plus Dextrous Fortitute and Dextrous Will (the swashbuckler gets their prereq, slippery mind).

Side note - some of the Duelist class features require using only a single light / one handed weapon, and not using an offhand weapon....yet the Epic Duelist bonus feat list has Superior TWF and TW Rend. Fail? (There may be ways to TWF satisfying the wording of Duelist's restrictions, like unarmed attacks or gnomish quickrazors, but still, fail). However the Swashbuckler has no such restrictions.

[Das Beeg Kabooa]

Homebrewing in some DR Penetration and Immunity to Critical Immunity might be some options to flesh it out.

[Cieyrin]

Homebrewing in some DR Penetration and Immunity to Critical Immunity might be some options to flesh it out.

That's more feat territory than what the progression needs.

As for the progression, that looks fine. Maybe give extra luck rerolls from the 11th level ability every 10 levels, so 21st, 31st, etc.

[ffone]

That's more feat territory than what the progression needs.

As for the progression, that looks fine. Maybe give extra luck rerolls from the 11th level ability every 10 levels, so 21st, 31st, etc.

Oh, that's a neat idea.

[Seerow]

Honestly, why bother giving an epic progression to a 3 level class?

[ffone]

Honestly, why bother giving an epic progression to a 3 level class?

Daring Outlaw.

NPCs.

[Seerow]

Daring Outlaw.

So you go Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X, and enjoy your higher reflex and AC?

NPCs.

May as well just make a NPC Warrior. It'll be nearly as effective :/

[ffone]

So you go Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X, and enjoy your higher reflex and AC?



May as well just make a NPC Warrior. It'll be nearly as effective :/

Swash is full BAB.

The main difference between the paths is

- more BAB, HP, Fort, and Swash class features
vs
- more skill points, reflex, and the rogue special abilities

The usual build, as I understand it, is Rogue-4 Swash-16, the motivation being to get full sneak attack while staying only 1 behind full BAB. The attack bonus helps a lot if you TWF. (You might space out the rogue levels so you can put more ranks in your fav skills though, like Hide and Use Magic Device).

I don't see how more Rogue levels would increase your AC. That should be a wash (the swashbuckler has a 'dodge' class feature, but Daring Outlaw stacks it).

Each class has one good save (rogue reflex, swash fort), so that's a wash (the swashbuckler has a 'grace' class feature which gives an additional bonus to reflex, but Daring Outlaw stacks those.) Having Evasion does make a high Reflex valuable, OTOH failing certain Fort saves is very nasty (and my experience with a high level daring outlaw was only failing most reflex saves on a 1, so more reflex would've had no utility).

Swash-3 Rogue-17 would only give you BAB 15, which is undesirable (you'll never get that 4th attack); it's basically like being a Rogue-20 who 'spent' a rogue special ability on Int-to-damage and dodge AC (the free Weapon Finesse is a wash with Daring Outlaw). Swash-4 gets you to 16 but it's a dead level. Swash-8 Rogue-12 might be a decent cutoff; swash 7 and 8 give two useful class features (charge over rough terrain, and flanking bonus of 4 instead of 2, which is great if you're already a melee sneak attacker.)

The Rogue-4 Swash-16 end of the seesaw is probably better unless the lack of skill points turns out to really bite you (very trap-heavy campaign, and no other PC has good listen/spot, for example). Although at the epic levels the rogue may pull ahead, due to the presence of juicy epic feats that have rogue special abilities as prereqs.