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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    Default The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I had an idea for some feats that are specifically meant for gestalt games, and wanted to know what people thought. They're sort of powerful, but not compared to the craziness that is gestalt in the first place. Plus, they reward certain combinations that are currently disfavored, like gestalting two warrior classes or two skillmonkey classes.

    Gestalt Knight [Gestalt]
    You have invented your own style of battle that is a fusion of two techniques.
    Prerequisite: Gestalt character.
    Benefit: Whenever you gain a level where the classes on both sides of the gestalt have a Base Attack Bonus equal to your total Hit Dice (as fighter), you gain a permanent +1 competence bonus to your melee, ranged, and natural weapon damage rolls. All such competence bonuses gained from this feat stack up to a maximum of one-half your current Hit Dice. Epic levels do not increase this bonus, regardless of the Base Attack Bonuses of the classes selected.
    Normal: You take the better Base Attack Bonus of the two classes being gestalted.
    Special: This feat may not be taken as a bonus feat for any class.

    Gestalt Heritage [Gestalt]
    Your natural monstrous strengths and weaknesses compliment your class.
    Prerequisite: Gestalt character, race with a Level Adjustment of +1 or more (or monster class with one or more levels that do not grant Hit Dice).
    Benefit: Whenever you gain a level where you have a level adjustment on one side of the gestalt, you may instead gestalt your class with Hit Dice appropriate to your creature type. For example, a 10th level gestalt harpy rogue (normally 7 HD and +3 LA on one side of the gestalt) can gestalt as if it had a full 10 Hit Dice of Monstrous Humanoid.
    Normal: Levels for which you have a level adjustment require you to take the Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, skill points, and saving throw bonuses of the class on the other side of the gestalt.
    Special: This feat may not be taken as a bonus feat for any class.

    Gestalt Learning [Gestalt]
    Your insights into one type of knowledge have helped you make great strides in another.
    Prerequisite: Gestalt character.
    Benefit: At each level, you gain skill points equal to the amount gained by the class you are gestalting with the higher number of skill points per level, plus one-half the amount of the other class you are gestalting, plus your Intelligence modifier. If you have this feat at 1st level, this total number of skill points is multiplied by 4, as normal. For example, a rogue (8 skill points per level) gestalted with a ranger (6 skill points per level) would gain 11 skill points per level, plus their Int modifier, and 44 skill points at 1st level.
    Normal: You take the better skill point total of the two classes being gestalted.
    Special: This feat may not be taken as a bonus feat for any class.

    Gestalt Piety [Gestalt]
    You have learned to channel your divine energy through other paths.
    Prerequisites: Gestalt character, ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spells.
    Benefit: When you spontaneously convert a prepared spell into a cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spell of equal or lower level, you may choose to lose a prepared spell or spell slot from another spellcasting class instead. You must have at least one spell prepared that would be eligible to be converted spontaneously in order to use this feat.

    Gestalt Prowess [Gestalt]
    You have combined two different fighting styles into a combat technique that is greater than the sum of its parts.
    Prerequisite: Gestalt character.
    Benefit: Whenever you gain a level where the classes on both sides of the gestalt have a Base Attack Bonus equal to 3/4 of your total Hit Dice (as a rogue or cleric), you instead treat that level as if it granted a Base Attack Bonus equal to your total Hit Dice (as a fighter). Likewise, when you gain a level where the classes on both sides of the gestalt have a Base Attack Bonus equal to 1/2 of your total Hit Dice (as a wizard), you instead treat that level as if it granted a Base Attack Bonus equal to 3/4 of your total Hit Dice (as a rogue or cleric).
    Normal: You take the better Base Attack Bonus of the two classes being gestalted.
    Special: This feat may not be taken as a bonus feat for any class.

    Gestalt Resilience [Gestalt]
    The gaps in your defenses are covered by the strengths of those from another profession, and vice versa.
    Prerequisite: Gestalt character.
    Benefit: Choose one of the three types of saving throw (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). Whenever you gain a level where the classes on both sides of your gestalt have a "poor" value for that type of saving throw bonus, you instead treat that level as if it granted a "good" saving throw bonus. For example, if you had chosen Will saving throws for this feat and then gained a level where you gestalted a figher and a barbarian (both of which have good Fortitude, poor Reflex, and poor Will), you would gain saving throw bonuses as if the level you gained had good Fortitude and good Will saves; your Reflex save would still be poor.
    Normal: You take the better of the two saving throw bonuses.
    Special: This feat may not be taken as a bonus feat for any class.

    Gestalt Toughness [Gestalt]
    Your special training has made your body more resistant to injury.
    Prerequisite: Gestalt character.
    Benefit: Whenever you gain a level and you roll your Hit Dice, roll the die for each of the two classes on either side of the gestalt. You gain hit points equal to the higher of the two rolls plus half of the lower of the two rolls, plus your Constitution bonus. If you are taking half of the maximum hit points for a level, add one-quarter of the maximum hit points from the class with the smaller Hit Dice to one-half of the maximum for the class with the larger Hit Dice. For example, a barbarian (d12 Hit Dice) gestalted with a ranger (d8 Hit Dice) would gain 8 hit points per level if he were taking one half the maximum, instead of just 6.
    Normal: You take the better Hit Dice of the two classes being gestalted.
    Special: This feat may not be taken as a bonus feat for any class.

    Spell Versatility [Gestalt]
    You have learned to mix and match your arcane and divine powers.
    Prerequisites: Gestalt character, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks.
    Benefit: Choose one arcane spellcasting class and one divine spellcasting class. When casting a spell from either class, you may set the save DC using the ability score appropriate to the other class. The maximum spell level to which you can apply this feat is equal to two less than the maximum spell level you can cast in either class. For example, a 9th wizard//cleric may cast a 3rd-level or lower cleric spell using Intelligence to set their save DC, or a 3rd-level wizard spell using Wisdom. This feat does not affect the number of spells gained per day, the maximum level of spells cast, or any other spellcasting parameter other than saving throw DCs.
    Special: You may gain this feat more than once. Every time you do, select another arcane or divine spellcasting class that you possess. You may now cast spells from that class using the ability scores from all others previously selected, or cast spells from previously selected classes using the ability score from the new class.
    Special: You may not select this feat if the Geomancer class is permitted in your campaign.

    -----------------------------------------

    Epic Spell Versatility [Epic, Gestalt]
    You have learned to mix and match your arcane and divine powers really well.
    Prerequisites: Gestalt character, Spell Versatility, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells, Knowledge (arcana) 23 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 23 ranks.
    Benefit: You may use your Spell Versatility feat on spells of any level you can cast, even those above 9th level.

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    5/11/11, 1:10 AM: Original post
    5/11/11, 2:55 AM: Added Gestalt Heritage
    5/13/11, 5:36 AM: Added Gestalt Knight, Gestalt Piety, Spell Versatility, and Epic Spell Versatility from later in the thread; reordered feats to alphabetical order.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-05-13 at 04:48 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    considering Gestalt has always been my favorite variant, I approve of anything designed specifically for it. as for balance, these seem fine, given the power state of gestalt...
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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I myself think that instead of upgrading the BAB when both classes have lower ones, you should give a bonus when characters gestalt two full BAB classes, sort of like the HD thing.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Gideon Falcon View Post
    I myself think that instead of upgrading the BAB when both classes have lower ones, you should give a bonus when characters gestalt two full BAB classes, sort of like the HD thing.
    I had thought of that, but I think it breaks the system a little to give out more BAB than you have Hit Dice. Though maybe a different reward may be the way to go...

    Gestalt Knight [Gestalt]
    You have invented your own style of battle that is a fusion of two techniques.
    Prerequisite: Gestalt character.
    Benefit: Whenever you gain a level where the classes on both sides of the gestalt have a Base Attack Bonus equal to your total Hit Dice (as fighter), you gain a permanent +1 competence bonus to your melee, ranged, and natural weapon damage rolls. All such competence bonuses gained from this feat stack up to a maximum of one-half your current Hit Dice. Epic levels do not increase this bonus, regardless of the Base Attack Bonuses of the classes selected.
    Normal: You take the better Base Attack Bonus of the two classes being gestalted.
    Special: This feat may not be taken as a bonus feat for any class.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-05-11 at 05:32 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I really like these, and I'm going to run them by my players later.

    I think that I'll give the HP and Skill feats out for free. The BAB and Save feats must be taken as feats, but I'll merge the two BAB feats (Prowess and Knight) and I'll allow th4 Save feat to be taken multiple times. They will also apply retroactively, methinks.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I really like these, and I'm going to run them by my players later.

    I think that I'll give the HP and Skill feats out for free. The BAB and Save feats must be taken as feats, but I'll merge the two BAB feats (Prowess and Knight) and I'll allow th4 Save feat to be taken multiple times. They will also apply retroactively, methinks.
    Yeah, I think in the right playgroup, those would all be fine changes. It depends on what everyone's comfort zone is. Gestalt is pretty wacky to begin with. At the very least, I think having them codified here would make it easier for you to point to them and say to your players, "We're playing gestalt, and you all get THIS effect for free."

    I considered making Gestalt Resilience be able to be taken multiple times, but was afraid that at a certain point, you might as well just make a feat that says, "You get good X saves from now on." Which I guess that feat already sort of is, except that it doesn't affect levels where you have a level adjustment (unless you also take the Gestalt Heritage one).

    I want to write more, but I'm having trouble coming up with ideas for gestalt feats that wouldn't also be just as good as multiclass feats.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Lyndworm's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    You could just write more multiclass feats, then. Everybody loves those.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    Yeah, but there's a ton of those already. I was trying to do something that I had never seen done before. Plus, I don't really have any ideas for those, either.

    I plan on writing the mentioned-in-the-rules-but-still-currently-theoretical prestige class that's so overpowered it takes up both sides of the gestalt someday soon, too.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I'd like to see something like that, actually. I've always thought that it would be cool to see if it was done well, but I've always been afraid it would come off as any of too weak, too strong, or too bland. Given what you've done with these feats, I have faith in your class-designing abilities.

    Do you have anything in mind for the class(es), or are you just spitballing?
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I'd like to see something like that, actually. I've always thought that it would be cool to see if it was done well, but I've always been afraid it would come off as any of too weak, too strong, or too bland. Given what you've done with these feats, I have faith in your class-designing abilities.

    Do you have anything in mind for the class(es), or are you just spitballing?
    Spitballing, I'm afraid. The best direction I have is something along the line of Epic Hero or Creature of Legend.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I realized that in most gestalt games, dual-progression classes are banned. Therefore, I can loot their corpses for feat ideas!

    Spell Versatility [Gestalt]
    You have learned to mix and match your arcane and divine powers.
    Prerequisites: Gestalt character, ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks.
    Benefit: When casting a spell from either your arcane or divine spellcasting class, you may set the save DC using the ability score appropriate to the other class. The maximum spell level to which you can apply this feat is equal to two less than the maximum spell level you can cast in either class. For example, a 9th wizard//cleric may cast a 3rd-level or lower cleric spell using Intelligence to set their save DC, or a 3rd-level wizard spell using Wisdom. This feat does not affect the number of spells gained per day, the maximum level of spells cast, or any other spellcasting parameter other than saving throw DCs.
    Special: You may gain this feat more than once. Every time you do, select another arcane or divine spellcasting class that you possess. You may now cast spells from that class using the ability score from all others previously selected, or cast spells from previously selected classes using the score from the new class.
    Special: You may not select this feat if the Geomancer class is permitted in your campaign.

    Gestalt Piety [Gestalt]
    You have learned to channel your divine energy through other paths.
    Prerequisites: Gestalt character, ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spells.
    Benefit: When you spontaneously convert a prepared spell into a cure, inflict, or summon nature's ally spell of equal or lower level, you may choose to lose a prepared spell or spell slot from another spellcasting class instead. You must have at least one spell prepared that would be eligible to be converted spontaneously in order to use this feat.

    I'll try to mine some other classes tomorrow...
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-05-13 at 04:43 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I really like those feats, too. I don't have anything constructive to add, but this project has my continued support.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I'll take it! Thanks.

    I think I'll just slowly add to it as I get ideas. I'm a little worried that Spell Versatility is too powerful for a feat, even in gestalt, though the fact that it never applies to the most powerful spells is a big limiting factor. So that a 10th level wizard/cleric who pumps Int and ignores Wis still can't use his Int for his 4th and 5th level cleric spells. Of course, at epic levels, that would be a horrible hindrance, so...

    Epic Spell Versatility [Epic, Gestalt]
    You have learned to mix and match your arcane and divine powers really well.
    Prerequisites: Gestalt character, Spell Versatility, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells, Knowledge (arcana) 23 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 23 ranks.
    Benefit: You may use your Spell Versatility feat on spells of any level you can cast, even those above 9th level.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-05-13 at 04:42 AM.
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    Hi there, I don't really have anything constructive to say, but I wanted to let you know that I've asked my DM to use two of these, and I'm really happy to see someone designing specifically toward Gestalted characters. I love gestalt, and all I wanted to say was thanks and good job.
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I like these feats, but I think Gestalt Heritage is a bit broken when you combine it with something like a Rakashas. You gestalt it with Paladin of tyranny and Hexblade build and you have a charecter with ultimate saves and Full BAB and a ton of ther stuff, heres an example build:

    level 16:
    Rakashas, the one that with only HD and LA is level 16:
    Gestalt it with Hexblade 5/Paladin of Tyranny 4/7 levels of sorcerer,
    do you see what you've done?
    that is epic casting, near unbeatable saves and combat ability.
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    RedKnightGirl

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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    No, because it won't work like that. Most DMs will not (and should not) allow you to advance the same spellcasting class on both sides of the gestalt. That means that those sorcerer levels need to go on the same side as the Outsider HD. So a 7 HD, +7 LA Rakshasa that casts as a 7th-level sorcerer (the MM standard) would need to be 15th level total before taking his first level in the sorcerer class and getting the casting power of an 8th-level sorcerer. Seems fine to me.

    If a DM lets you have sorcerer spellcasting on one side of a gestalt, and then also advance sorcerer on the other side, then they are accepting what happens next.

    EDIT: Also, your definition of "unbeatable saves" and mine probably aren't the same. Having all Good saves for all 20 levels is not "unbeatable," even with Divine Grace. You could do that now with a monk/paladin gestalt, or any other non-LA outsider/paladin gestalt. Heck, a bard/paladin of freedom would cover all three saves, even, and have a fantastic Charisma for divine grace to boot. It's not that big of a deal in a gestalt game.
    Last edited by SPoD; 2011-05-14 at 07:10 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    Well In Gestalt a level 20 wizard or caster, can't get any higher DC's Gestalt allows higer saves more easily.
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    Default Re: The Best of Both Worlds: Feats Designed for Gestalt Games

    I understand that, but I'm saying that such is already true in gestalt, and the lack of ways to increase save DCs is already a flaw in epic. It is trivially easy to make a gesalt character with all Good saves and a big bonus to saving throws. My feats don't actually make that problem significantly worse. If there are 20 ways to do something in the game as it stands, and I add another two or three, it doesn't break the game. It is beyond the scope of a few feats to try to correct imbalances between saving throws and save DCs for epic characters.

    Although, I think many gestalt games use the fractional saving throw rule, which substantially reduces saves for multiclass characters.
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