OOTS #791 - The Discussion Thread

[M.A.D]

I think Roy used his Weapon Specialization in Panel 9, and didn't even leave a scratch on Thog. Can we calculate something about Thog's level with that?

Does it make you SAD?

*sighs* I want a girlfriend

[Shoelessgdowar]

I think Roy used his Weapon Specialization in Panel 9, and didn't even leave a scratch on Thog. Can we calculate something about Thog's level with that?



*sighs* I want a girlfriend

Dude, I don't get you.

[Warren Dew]

Yes I'd say that a good roleplayer builds a character fluffwise first and worries about crunch later

I'd say that a good roleplayer creates believable characters, and the only way of doing that is to make sure that the "fluff" of the character's personality and characterization is tied to the "crunch" of the character's mechanical capabilities. In many systems, that means the "crunch" has to come first if you're going to be a really good roleplayer.

That's assuming there are such things as "good" and "bad" roleplayers, of course.

[slurpzURbrainz]

Hello! Delurk alert! First of all Thank you so much Giant for the awesome OOTS. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

Secondly.. About Iq in 3.5 fighter types... The swashbuckler class, complete warrior pp 11, gets to add its iq bonus to light weapon damage at third level... it gets weapon finesse as a bonus feat at first level. I havent made a fighter since.

Thirdly, I love so many characters in OOTS, including Thog. Nale I could enjoy seeing die... Thog.... well... I dont see how.. but I hope he can be reformed somehow, and I think Elan would hope so too.

Thanks again Giant!

[Tvtyrant]

*sighs* I want a girlfriend

Eh, sad girlfriends rarely work well with mad men.

[Scarlet Knight]

How do you know its a "she"?

She's in the classic Vallejo female captive pose!

All males to be whipped must be in a standing position when appearing in Sword & Sorcery art...

[MoonCat]

Strange how the arms are normal arms, while the back legs are animal legs.

[M.A.D]

Dude, I don't get you.

Means that I'm Single

[Tvtyrant]

Strange how the arms are normal arms, while the back legs are animal legs.

I believe by the fact that it is a Zebrafolk it is supposed to be bipedal, its just being held down by the chains.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Means that I'm Single

Read the title of the Strip...

I said

I don't get you :)

Your name is in the title ;)

[Icedaemon]

Hm, so we're back to the fighters, eh? Well, it looks like Nale did just basically dump Thog here -- so whatever is afoot, Thog is just enjoying himself with a bit of random slaughter.

Assuming that this plan was made by someone other than Nale, this would indeed make the most sense - Thog is not all that easy to control and probably of the most use as a distraction like this.

[Niknokitueu]

Dear Rich,

Liked the strip. As a player of a D&D-style system that does take account of high INT, I do tend to forget that high INT is worthless here.

Kinda makes me proud to be a Hacker.

Keep up the good work, and I hope Roy turns out okay after getting Thogged.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Garwain]

... In many systems, that means the "crunch" has to come first if you're going to be a really good roleplayer.

I don't agree. If you have a character in mind to role play, you create the character (fluff) and then add the mechanics to fit to the fluff. I'm sure the OOTS characters are product of a process where the story was used to find the right build. Not the story adapted to the build.

spoilered because off topic

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I wanted to play a character who is yelling "must be a sign of the gods!" all the time while being stubborn and iron willed. So I made a cleric with the feat "Iron Will". And I like it, it makes role play that much easier than playing some exotic contruction that breaks your mouth while telling the backstory.

A really good role player does not necessarily cares about numbers. If you don't do anything stupid your DM won't kill you anyway.

[Dalek-K]

spoilered because off topic

Spoiler

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I wanted to play a character who is yelling "must be a sign of the gods!" all the time while being stubborn and iron willed. So I made a cleric with the feat "Iron Will". And I like it, it makes role play that much easier than playing some exotic contruction that breaks your mouth while telling the backstory.

A really good role player does not necessarily cares about numbers. If you don't do anything stupid your DM won't kill you anyway.

If the criteria for killing a character is "Did he do anything stupid today/last time" then that is a horrible DM

Sometimes death is part of the flow of the story and doesn't have to be the end... I think this comic proved that.

Perhaps it is time that Roy creates his own prestige class? He is smart enough and has trained quite. Don't get me wrong, not everyone in the party needs a prestige class but I could see Roy taking this wupping as a life lesson and after seeing how much better Elan got... taking Elan's PrC and fixing it to Int. Hmmm a Roy X Julio fight so that Julio will explain how to create a PrC?

Of course Tarquin may already have that sort of PrC (int to attack and damage) since he is a fighter type and obviously pretty darn smart. Teaching it to Roy for Elan's sake would be a great plot point. Even something like

Tarquin: I'm going to teach you this PrC so that you can help my son. It allows you to add Int to Attack and Damage and it cancels out pun based attacks once you get high enough level.

Roy: Why not just teach it to Elan.... Oh right...

[ThePhantasm]

I'll admit, I didn't immediately get the title correctly. Before I read the comic it looked like a reference to GLAD trash bags.

[H Birchgrove]

The wizard's site has some information here. You can also find it in the Tome of Battle book.

Thanks!

You mean you've never heard of Tome of Battle?!

It's meant to fix melee classes. Think, a 20th level fighter gets 11 bonus feats, whereas a 20th level wizard gets wish, gate, time stop, dominate monster, empowered dominate person, etc. So to balance it, WotC made Tome of Battle, one of their very few smart moves.

I haven't played Dungeons and Dragons. (For some time I didn't even know that "moral alignment", so often used in Internet memes, came from it.) I have learned most about through OoTS, TV Tropes, these forums, and then by websites like the D'n'D Wiki through links from these forums.

Thanks for the explanation.

[Grogmir]

Nice strip Giant.

I think all this PrC talk for Roy is crazy. Roy is a straight fighter and proud of that fact. He aint changing now!

[ORione]

I'll admit, I didn't immediately get the title correctly. Before I read the comic it looked like a reference to GLAD trash bags.

Yeah, so was I.

[cheesymetal]

Yeah, so was I.

me too. took me a second look.

[Warren Dew]

I don't agree. If you have a character in mind to role play, you create the character (fluff) and then add the mechanics to fit to the fluff. I'm sure the OOTS characters are product of a process where the story was used to find the right build. Not the story adapted to the build.

The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters. As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls, which somewhat necessitates a mechanics first approach. Granted more recently created characters - Thog perhaps - would have been allowed to assign their rolls.

If you don't do anything stupid your DM won't kill you anyway.

What if you want to roleplay a stupid character? Elan's low intelligence would be much less convincing if he'd never done anything stupid.

[Gray Mage]

The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters. As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls, which somewhat necessitates a mechanics first approach. Granted more recently created characters - Thog perhaps - would have been allowed to assign their rolls.

Actually, they are 3.5 Ed. And while rolling is a way of determining stats (I, myself, prefer point buy), you usually can assign the rolls.

[hamishspence]

To be even more precise, they were 3.0 characters but were updated to 3.5 at the very start of the comic

[M.A.D]

Dude, I don't get you.

Read the title of the Strip...

I said

I don't get you :)

Your name is in the title ;)

I know ^^

I'm MAD, but I'm also SAD and I'm also not SAD

I'm not SAD not because I'm not Single Ability Dependency, and I'm SAD because I'm single

[Shoelessgdowar]

I know ^^

I'm MAD, but I'm also SAD and I'm also not SAD

I'm not SAD not because I'm not Single Ability Dependency, and I'm SAD because I'm single

Sounds like you're a bit bipolar

Perhaps you should learn to be RAD (Reliable Attribute Diversified)

Oh, and while I'm probably one of the worst people to advise on relationships, putting more points in you charisma can't hurt... it worked for Elan

[JonestheSpy]

The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters. As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls, which somewhat necessitates a mechanics first approach. Granted more recently created characters - Thog perhaps - would have been allowed to assign their rolls.

No. No. No. Really, there's O-Chul's joke about his Charisma and Belkar making fun of Elan, but I really really don't think people point buy their stats in the Ootsverse. It's a character generation system that just doesn't translate to any kind of real storytelling. Elan, Belkar, and Thog did not choose to be dumb to boost other stats, they just are.

Roy chose to be a fighter largely in rebellion against his dad. So does that mean that at some point in his early teens he said "Well, gee, I guess I'll have to become stupider or less agile or something so I can boost my strength"? Of course not.

[Warren Dew]

No. No. No. Really, there's O-Chul's joke about his Charisma and Belkar making fun of Elan, but I really really don't think people point buy their stats in the Ootsverse. It's a character generation system that just doesn't translate to any kind of real storytelling. Elan, Belkar, and Thog did not choose to be dumb to boost other stats, they just are.

Maybe you could go back and reread my post? I was arguing the exact same thing you are, at least in the case of Elan and Belkar: it wasn't a point buy system, they "just are" dumb - because that's what they rolled.

[Kish]

The OOTS characters are D&D 3.0 characters.

Were.

As I recall, D&D 3.0 character are created by random rolls,

From the rest of your post, I'm gathering that by "random rolls," you mean "rolls which they cannot place as they please." Quite wrong. Roll 4d6 six times, drop the lowest die each time, assemble the results however you want them, was the default method for 3.0ed as it was for 3.5ed.

[JonestheSpy]

Maybe you could go back and reread my post? I was arguing the exact same thing you are, at least in the case of Elan and Belkar: it wasn't a point buy system, they "just are" dumb - because that's what they rolled.

But you were suggesting that other characters, such as Thog, could be somehow have chosen their stats. And I'm saying no, it just doesn't work across the board. Sorry if using Roy as an example confused that point.

[FatJose]

Aren't the stat rolls an abstract anyway? Isn't the point of the random stats supposed to be so...well..I have no idea what the point of random stats are. I always point buy. The characters have their stats because of the way they lived. That is all. Roy has high int because he was well educated and raised in a family of smart people, some of it might be genes as well. He's got good physical scores because he went through what was essentially boot camp and he has his grandfather's genes for good measure. Had he made different choices in life he could have easily become a very high int wizard who may have been slightly tougher than the usual bookworm. The difference is that he "chose."

I'm assuming alot here and its all up to interpretation but, a character who rolls perfect 18 stats wasn't just lucky. Those stats say he/she worked hard physically and mentally before becoming old enough to adventure while someone who roles a lot of 10 s is just an average guy, take the main character of Idiocracy. Always scraped by on the bare minimum. Not a dumb guy, but he's a little too laid back, a very "meh" person. In OotS, yes there are tons of jokes about mechanics, but the random stat rolls are there because your characters rarely if ever have a fully 100% fleshed out background that explains every point they've earned.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Were.

From the rest of your post, I'm gathering that by "random rolls," you mean "rolls which they cannot place as they please." Quite wrong. Roll 4d6 six times, drop the lowest die each time, assemble the results however you want them, was the default method for 3.0ed as it was for 3.5ed.

This might work, but then that brings up the master roller issue, which I think Thog is. Thog is the guy who rolled nearly all 6s, so he has placed Str 18(20), Dex 18, Con 18, Int 6(4), Wis 16, Char 18(16)... with the parentheses being his stats after racial mods. Giving us the Dumb but wise, charming, really strong, agile, and tough Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter... and he probably chose to focus on building his strength and toughness instead of studying to be smarter(of course being a Barbarian and being illiterate probably doesn't help with that)

Maybe you could go back and reread my post? I was arguing the exact same thing you are, at least in the case of Elan and Belkar: it wasn't a point buy system, they "just are" dumb - because that's what they rolled.

They also frequently discuss the dump stat, the stat where you dump your low roll so you can have better rolls put elsewhere. So Elan, having been hit in the head, and feeling intelligence just makes the world icky and depressing, chose to be blissfully dumb, but wanted that charisma and agility for all those fun flips and performance skills, and a touch of strength and constitution are needed, after all gymnasts are actually quite strong especially for their sizes and anyone who is going to be dancing and singing needs to have stamina to keep going and going and going (though Haley can probably tell us how large a 'constitution score' Elan has... but there is a reason why Thog is so afraid of girls, cause they've pursued him for his exceptionally well allocated 'constitution score' for all his post adolescent life). As for Roy, well the problem comes that Roy, so he could have that huge brain to go with his Brawn, probably made a major mistake, and placed his 18 in Intelligence (since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled), leaving his Strength and Constitution a bit lower then max, as well I think where most people have a single dumpstat, Roy has 3 (yes 3... He Sacraficed Dex, Wis, and Charisma, so he could have higher Int, Str, and Con... as seen by his inability to dodge traps and properly freefall, his inability to notice opponents and realize when Belkar is lying, and his general bad attitude)

No. No. No. Really, there's O-Chul's joke about his Charisma and Belkar making fun of Elan, but I really really don't think people point buy their stats in the Ootsverse. It's a character generation system that just doesn't translate to any kind of real storytelling. Elan, Belkar, and Thog did not choose to be dumb to boost other stats, they just are.

Roy chose to be a fighter largely in rebellion against his dad. So does that mean that at some point in his early teens he said "Well, gee, I guess I'll have to become stupider or less agile or something so I can boost my strength"? Of course not.

But you were suggesting that other characters, such as Thog, could be somehow have chosen their stats. And I'm saying no, it just doesn't work across the board. Sorry if using Roy as an example confused that point.

Actually from the Dumpstat comments, I'd say it is likely they do choose where their rolls go and do choose where to allocate their bonus attribute points... Belkar recently may have taken a point of wisdom from the experience from his brush with death, and it is staring to show. Roy had to have some way to move his Intelligence and overall Mental Scores higher then V's for the Squidy-Guy to think him the most appetizing thing to eat, and as we've seen over and over, knowledge of the system allows them to affect it (delayed hits and damage due to correcting the previous rolls, roleplay xp, knowing about how feats affect matters, knowing how to cross-class for bonus feats, and knowing which stats to optimize so not to waste time with an attribute that gives no bonuses to attack/damage/crits/etc.)