OOTS #791 - The Discussion Thread

[ORione]

(since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled)

I'm not going to get into this argument, but I want to correct you on something.

As a wizard, V's Intelligence affects his spells, not his Wisdom. Wisdom affects divine spells.

[Forikroder]

(since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled)

not neccearily, whos to say a mindflayers tsates is based on int?

[Querzis]

As for Roy, well the problem comes that Roy, so he could have that huge brain to go with his Brawn, probably made a major mistake, and placed his 18 in Intelligence (since we know that his combined mental scores were better then V's when they encountered the Squidy-Guy... which since V says he has an 18 in Int and has to have high Wisdom for his spells, but has a somewhat low charisma, and Roy's shown some lack of both charisma and wisdom at times, must mean Roy had at least an 18 in intelligence if not higher from placing points in intelligence when he leveled)

The Giant himself said that no, the mindflayer didnt chose Roy because he has higher int then V, he just got higher overall mental stats. Also Roy got great charisma, I really have no idea why you would assume otherwise, where has he shown a «lack in charisma»? I'm pretty damn sure hes showing awesome charisma everytime he manage to control his crazy teamates. His wisdom does seems average though. Just like V wisdom seems average. I really have no clue why you would think he need wisdom for his spells and he never showed especially good wisdom. He did show bad charisma though, he just suck at personal interactions and understanding other people. So since V charisma is most definitly in the negative, overall Roy would just need to have 14 int and 14 cha to have better mental stats then V.

And he most definitly still got around 18 strength so yeah, I really dont think Roy would have made a better wizard then he is a fighter.

[Calmness]

What's up with the angry smilie, anyway? Will we be getting one of those every time Roy makes an ass of himself?

[FatJose]

So...going by the food heads... Wisdom is fibrous, Charisma is sugary and Intelligence is fatty. Elan is like the Charisma=Appearance to the extreme, especially early on. He can attract women with his looks but once he opens his mouth its usually a hit or miss with significantly more miss for comedy's sake. SO, like the mind-flayer saw, diet soda. Tastes okay but no substance. I can't really tell what Roy was supposed to be. If there was some mashed potatoes and veggies it could be said he was a more balanced and hearty meal...but he's a whole turkey. I guess it's probably stuffed too...Hmm..What was this thread about again?

[wumpus]

Note: the deva judging Roy in comic 490 suggests that Roy could have been a cleric and that he had "halfway descent wisdom and charisma scores, he could have pulled it off".

It looks like someone who looked at Roy's character sheet thinks he as a high wisdom as well.

[rewinn]

So...going by the food heads... I can't really tell what Roy was supposed to be. If there was some mashed potatoes and veggies it could be said he was a more balanced and hearty meal...but he's a whole turkey. I guess it's probably stuffed too...

Belkar seems to think of Roy as a "turkey", and often wishes he'd "get stuffed".

[Witty Username]

warblade, really? It kind of defeats the purpose of being you-know, non-magic badass.
Hitting the books, their are a number of good core for fighters when not fighting mages. combat expertise can reduce power attack, Greater weapon focus+weapon specialization means roy probably has higher to hit and damage, Imp. disarm or Imp. trip can give him free hits, higher crit range(better if has Imp. Crit), Imp. Sunder
yay, thog thanks thog's fans!
Higher strength, power attack(Reduces attack roll), rage(reduces AC, no thought based actions, and fatigued after), more HP

Advantage- Roy, Using Imp. disarm and combat expertise(assumptions) Thog cannot power attack without risk of losing his weapon and/or not hitting, no rage because of Roy can outlast it(or run around a bit)Edit:it is also possible roy can disarm thog and Rich can rule picking up your weapon would be un-rage like, higher crit allows for more likely chance of extreme damage, If Roy has imp. sunder game over for Thog

[DougTheHead]

Roy doesn't need an entire prestige class: just a feat, which Thog is too dumb to have taken.

And I find it very difficult to believe that Roy would be killed again so soon, so (hopefully) he's safe for the moment.

Man, looking at that list, it seems like Roy should have a whole list of feats built off Combat Expertise. Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip... he could be the Allen Iverson of melee combat. I don't know if he would have enough feats to afford Whirlwind Attack, but that would just about complete the comparison.

Giant has mentioned Roy's lack of build optimization in the past; is this the point where that starts to become a problem? Will Roy need to swallow his pride, multiclass to Wizard, and take Spell Mastery?

[Querzis]

Man, looking at that list, it seems like Roy should have a whole list of feats built off Combat Expertise. Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip... he could be the Allen Iverson of melee combat. I don't know if he would have enough feats to afford Whirlwind Attack, but that would just about complete the comparison.

Giant has mentioned Roy's lack of build optimization in the past; is this the point where that starts to become a problem? Will Roy need to swallow his pride, multiclass to Wizard, and take Spell Mastery?

A multiclass between a fighting and magic class is just a really horrible combination. Not only would Roy need to lose his armor to be able to cast anything efficiently but magic missiles and the other level 1 spells really woudnt help around Roy level anyway. So he would be a level 13-15 fighter who would be able to throw around 1D4+1 of force damage if he get his armor off...that help him so much. You combine two spellcasters class or you combine two fighting class, the only exception to this is the Arcane Trickster (and I know nobody who ever bothered to get that one...if you do tell me.)

Beside, as I already said, Roy still got more strength then he got any other stats so a melee class is still the best choice for him. Make him multiclass if you want but pretty much every class would be more helpfull then Wizard/Sorcerer (yes, even bard and cleric would actually give him bonus instead of doing absolutely nothing).

[Kish]

Giant has mentioned Roy's lack of build optimization in the past; is this the point where that starts to become a problem? Will Roy need to swallow his pride, multiclass to Wizard, and take Spell Mastery?

The wishful thinking of his father and forum theoretical optimizers to the contrary, Roy is never going to need to multiclass to wizard.

[Knaight]

warblade, really? It kind of defeats the purpose of being you-know, non-magic badass.

The Warblade is nonmagical. Crusader no, Swordsage no, Warblade yes. Now, what it does defeat is the whole following in grandfather's footsteps concept, which is really important to Roy as a character. It also brings non core material into way more prominence than it has had in the comic, and thus changes its feel.

[eusticepious]

Man, looking at that list, it seems like Roy should have a whole list of feats built off Combat Expertise. Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip... he could be the Allen Iverson of melee combat. I don't know if he would have enough feats to afford Whirlwind Attack, but that would just about complete the comparison.

Giant has mentioned Roy's lack of build optimization in the past; is this the point where that starts to become a problem? Will Roy need to swallow his pride, multiclass to Wizard, and take Spell Mastery?

Have we seen Roy perform the feat his grandfather taught him (panels 2 and 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)?

[Lecan]

Have we seen Roy perform the feat his grandfather taught him (panels 2 and 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)?

He hasn't fought a caster yet. That's likely being saved (by Rich) for Xykon, so I wouldn't expect to see it used until Girard's Gate at the earliest.

[Prestige Class]

I'm enjoying this particular sub-plot, but I'm a bit more interested in what Xykon and friends are doing. They could already be at Girard's Gate by now, though as stated in OOTS #416, it takes weeks to complete the ritual.

Also, I don't get the name. Please help.

[ericgrau]

Like everyone here and Thog I've already made fun of Roy for under-utilizing his mental stats in his build. Ya any of the related feats could secure a clever tactical win even without resorting to some cheesy PrC like Thog is talking about. But I don't think that's how the comic will resolve the matter at all. I think Roy is going to come up with some clever plan to win.

[Prestige Class]

He hasn't fought a caster yet. That's likely being saved (by Rich) for Xykon, so I wouldn't expect to see it used until Girard's Gate at the earliest.

Roy's a practical man. He's not going to wait for Xykon to use a move that useful; he's going to try it on the first enemy spellcaster he sees. On that note, Zz'dtri has something to worry about, even if he doesn't know it.

[Kish]

I'm enjoying this particular sub-plot, but I'm a bit more interested in what Xykon and friends are doing. They could already be at Girard's Gate by now, though as stated in OOTS #416, it takes weeks to complete the ritual.

Also, I don't get the name. Please help.

MAD stands for Multi-Ability Dependent, commonly applied to classes. Thog is saying that, because the fighter and barbarian class abilities don't directly benefit from Intelligence, Roy's Intelligence score is a waste and Thog was smart to use Intelligence as a dump stat.

[factotum]

I'm enjoying this particular sub-plot, but I'm a bit more interested in what Xykon and friends are doing. They could already be at Girard's Gate by now, though as stated in OOTS #416, it takes weeks to complete the ritual.

I'm reasonably sure that if we haven't seen them arrive at Girard's Gate on-panel then it hasn't happened...no need to worry yourself about that.

[Prestige Class]

I'm reasonably sure that if we haven't seen them arrive at Girard's Gate on-panel then it hasn't happened...no need to worry yourself about that.

True, but: Xykon was already at Dorukan's gate when OOTS started, and his later march to Soon's gate, while mentioned, wasn't shown until he was practically on Azure City's doorstep. I'm not saying it's probable that he's at Girard's gate, I'm just saying it's possible.

[Prestige Class]

MAD stands for Multi-Ability Dependent, commonly applied to classes. Thog is saying that, because the fighter and barbarian class abilities don't directly benefit from Intelligence, Roy's Intelligence score is a waste and Thog was smart to use Intelligence as a dump stat.

Thanks for the info. Wondering what the acronym stood for was starting to nag at me.

[Sannom]

To quote the Hulk while he was ripping off and eating the arms and the face of the Abomination : "You know what your problem is, smart guy? You think too much!".

That just sums up Roy's predicament here. He thinks so much, he is so certain of his superiority because he has both brawns and brain that he is easily distracted by low-level taunts and cannot face Thog's simplicity. In front of someone so stupid claiming that he is smarter than him, Roy's ego cannot let that insult go, and it costs him dearly.

Obviously, Roy and Xykon have something in common : higher than expected Intelligence for their class, but Wisdom is not high.

[Calenestel]

Actually Roy has decent enough Wis that the Deva thought he'd make a good fighter/cleric.
As for the rest, we'll just have to wait and see.

[rewinn]

... Will Roy need to swallow his pride, multiclass to Wizard, and take Spell Mastery?

Roy is a team leader.

He doesn't NEED to multiclass to wizard; he's got V. That's the whole point of a team.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I still debate that Roy is so big on his brains, that his Int stat is higher then his strength stat. Obviously Thog does not suffer from such foolishness. Also, a 13 is not high Intelligence, so Thog's point is still valid in that anything more then a 13 in Intelligence is a waste of points for Combat Classes unless they just want loads of skillpoints... which comedicly is more important for Fighters, Wixards, Sorcerors, Paladins, and Clerics (who all get 2+Int mod skill points per level), and far less important for Rogues (8+Int mod skill points per level) and Bards and Rangers (6+Int Mod Skill points per level)... Monks, Druids, and Barbarians are only slightly better off (4+Int mod skill points per level).

This also improves the odds that Elan has at least 1 Perform skill of 15+

[Raging Gene Ray]

I never cared about Thog until now.

[Lurkmoar]

I never cared about Thog until now.

Is it wrong that I like Thog's lines... and still don't care about him?

[Da'Shain]

I still debate that Roy is so big on his brains, that his Int stat is higher then his strength stat. Obviously Thog does not suffer from such foolishness. Also, a 13 is not high Intelligence, so Thog's point is still valid in that anything more then a 13 in Intelligence is a waste of points for Combat Classes unless they just want loads of skillpoints...

If Roy used a point-buy system, his player is almost certainly the DM's sweetheart, because his ability scores have been pegged as far too high for any normal point buy system. Roy just happened to get a whole lot luckier on his rolls than most other people. For all we know, INT is his dump stat.

[ORione]

Is it wrong that I like Thog's lines... and still don't care about him?

No. Feel free to feel as much for him as Thog did for the citizens of Cliffport.

[Shoelessgdowar]

No. Feel free to feel as much for him as Thog did for the citizens of Cliffport.

Thog felt plenty for people of cliffport... Thog felt people's spleens, and people's lower intestines, the people's brains, and people's livers... Thog not like people's livers, Thog never eat livers if Thog can save livers and feed them to puppies instead. But Thog not sure which people you me, were them people off panel? People of Cliffport seem vague, maybe them still in Cliffport and Nale only make fake light images of people look dead.