Results 1 to 30 of 31
-
2011-05-16, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Somerville, MA
- Gender
Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
If any of my players are reading this, don't.
I've gotten myself into a plot hole again. Well not really a hole. More of a pit. The players are at the bottom and there's an army up top. I don't want to save them with deus ex machina, so I'm looking to dig a few escape routes.
We're playing 4th ed. The players are level 11. I'd post this in the 4e forums, but the question is, in my mind, more about story telling than mechanics, so it goes here.
The players were sent to retrieve a MacGuffin from the vault below the Ruins of Zhentil Keep before the Netherese army could re-take the keep and get to the MacGuffin. The vault was kept 100 feet below the keep and surrounded by an extraplanar locking mechanism. The players defeated the lock and entered the vault right before the Netherese could get down there. Now I'm having trouble figuring out a way to get the players out.
I don't think they can fight out. The vault is at the bottom of a 100 foot shaft. Climbing out is difficult. Climbing out while being shot at by however many guys fit at the top of the hole is impossible. I just don't see that being viable.
I don't believe they have any teleportation magic, at least not for the range they'd need. But if they do, the vault is warded against it. I might allow them to port out if I can't think of anything else.
I've come up with one solution so far. They have multiple sources of extradimensional space. I figure they could hide in one and tear their way into the astral plane. That's actually what I'm hoping for and I'll be really proud of them if they figure it out. But I don't know how to hint that they should do that.
What I'm trying to avoid is putting them in a situation that looks like certain doom and then handing them the key to get out. That just feels meaningless. I don't like railroad escape scenes and neither do my players. That's what happens if I tell them how to get out. They get a free pass if I send a powerful but friendly NPC their way too. I think I can live with a disguised railroad out of danger, but I'm just not sure how to make a suggestion like "hide in the extradimensional cloak and then blow it up with the handy haversack" into something subtle that needs interpretation.
I am considering taking a page out of Glug's book. I could see there being a Demon in the vault who will trade the PCs an escape route for their souls. This Demon will need more character and plot presence before I commit to it though.If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.
-
2011-05-16, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- My apartment
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Well, if there is one thing video games and TV taught me, there is always another path. If the fortress is guarded, then use the sewers. If you can't get out the door, there is always a window or at the very least a ventilation shaft.
Maybe there is a secret way into the vault. The builders could have put it in just in case something like this happens: The defenders are stuck at the bottom of the vault and have no way out.
EDIT: These are ruins. Maybe local critters, the weather, the residents of the dungeon next door, etc. created another path.
Make some BS roll behind the screen and tell the players that one of them sees something, which turns out to be a secret passage. Then have them fight their way through an over-CR'd dungeon while at the same time having to do it fast enough that they don't get caught by their enemy from behind.Last edited by Choco; 2011-05-16 at 11:49 AM.
Been there, fought that, died horribly.
Something fun and flavorful to get your DM throwing books at you: Katana Chucker
-
2011-05-16, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
If you invent an escape route, it's a Deus Ex Machina even if they don't catch you at it.
So don't invent an escape route; play from there.
The army should take them prisoner, and require them to take on some quest for them. Ideally, there's a common enemy so the army's general can actually use them for something they'll approve of.
Or possibly they are told that they can survive if they bring up the McGuffin for the army. Maybe the party is sent back to deliver the army's demands. Then they'll have to try to steal it back later.
Without a railroaded escape, that army now has the McGuffin and the party. OK - what does that mean, and how does that lead to another adventure?
-
2011-05-16, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- Worcestershire, UK
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Can they diguise themselves as members of the hostile army, or use invisibility? - even if they do it badly, you could let them get past the first obstacle - the pit - before they have to fight various minions and named bad guys and escape.
Could they send for help, and get teleported out by allies? - that is, they use their own magic to call on the NPC who helpls them out, and don't feel like you're pulling punches and leading them by the nose.
Or could the hostile army let them get away, as part of their own nefarious plans? - maybe the Netherese decide that the McGuffin can be used to trace the whereabouts of the only people who know about their evil plans, and secretly plan to follow the party back to their base.
-
2011-05-16, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Well a demon or that kind of entity coming in from another plane to offer them a deal can be good if done right, but many players, in my experience, are keenly attached to the souls of their player characters.
Firstly, before anything else, make them summon the demon, maybe somewhere in the room on a stone surface is a name scratched into the stone 3 times, and saying that name 3 times will conjure the demon to them; Yes, that leaves out the possibility that they won't conjure it at all, but better that then it just popping up, as that would be very deux ex machina.
Also she/he should only ask what she/he can do for them, and let them come up with the idea of asking for a way out or what other thing they can think of in the moment to help them, if they will even speak to the demon and doesn't just attack it on sight.
If you go with the demon solution, if they turn down the offer of an escape plan for a way out, make her give another offer, telling them thats her/his last offer and they can take it or leave it, then have the demon put down X number of weapons (X being the number of players), each fitting to each character and obviously very powerful and look like they are all part of the same set or comes from the same source (all metal parts looks like a blend of the darkest charcoal and burning brimstone, but feels cold to the touch, for instance).
Then she/he lets them know they can pick up the weapons and if they do, they will be safely ported away from here, but the weapons demand a toll, Y number of souls each and they will have a fixed period of time to meet their quota or the weapons will animate, find them and suck out their own souls.
And then make him/her leave as the seemingly undefeatable armies come ever closer, just leaving the weapons there on the ground as a tease, suddenly the problem is different; Will they be able to find and kill enough evil people each before the time period expires, should they take the deal?
Obviously, then they should be shifted to a very peaceful place that is hard to leave (imagine the Shire being on an island surrounded and covered by a fog that works as an antimagic field), but thats just the mindset of demons, I suppose.
Oh, and obviously as well, the weapons should keep working once the quota is filled, eager to harvest any bonus souls they should come upon.
Note, this solution got the drawback that you will introduce a powerful NPC that can be conjured at any time by saying her/his name 3 times and who can give powerful favours in exchange for souls or other bargaining chips that holds hers/his interestLast edited by Iceforge; 2011-05-16 at 12:02 PM.
-
2011-05-16, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- North Jersey
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Man, so if they "called" my character from the realms (sending or some such) for some reason he would tell them that there are another extensive set of tunnels under zhentil keep that were built by the church of Ixvim (the maps can be found in the easily findable "ruins of Zhentil keep" adventure) so in realms cannon: there's a whole other tunnel systemdown there, which was specifically enchanted by the priests of Ixvim to prevent the priests of cyric and the mages who were from the Zhentarim from finding it. Have one of the dwarves feel a strange void in the wall and let them escape in to the very hard to find, very well protected from scrying (and exactly as dangerous or safe as you want since theoretically adventurers cleaned it out years ago) set of tunnels that gives them another direction to run in.
Or you can just use that as an idea and make your own maps, keep in mind Zhentil keep has long been run by byzantine back stabbers the PCs comming across some hidden escape route that someone put there hundreds of years ago in case they needed to escape is very very possible.Big Ups to Vrythas for making my Avi!
-
2011-05-16, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
-
2011-05-16, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Somerville, MA
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
I forgot to include, I am considering just telling them they have one session to find a way out or they automatically TPK. I'm not sure if that's too rude though. But I think it would get the message across that the ball's in their court and they can't wait around for an answer to show up.
It is. I'm willing to do it, but hesitant. Basically I want to have some ideas for an escape route ready.
Good option. Not sure why I didn't think of it because the PCs probably will.
Could they send for help, and get teleported out by allies? - that is, they use their own magic to call on the NPC who helpls them out, and don't feel like you're pulling punches and leading them by the nose.
Or could the hostile army let them get away, as part of their own nefarious plans? - maybe the Netherese decide that the McGuffin can be used to trace the whereabouts of the only people who know about their evil plans, and secretly plan to follow the party back to their base.
I dunno, the players really like killing and aren't so into morality...
Obviously, then they should be shifted to a very peaceful place that is hard to leave (imagine the Shire being on an island surrounded and covered by a fog that works as an antimagic field), but thats just the mindset of demons, I suppose.
Neat. I get that not all fluff content can be reprinted for 4e, but I really wish they'd make mention of older edition content. The 4e FRCS was woefully underdeveloped when it came to RoZK and I don't see why they couldn't say there was an old 2e book that would have more relevant info on it. I'll take a look at the module and see what applies. I'm hoping all of it, because I wouldn't mind taking a break from writing for a couple months, even if it did mean choosing new monsters to populate the tunnels.
There's giving them a way out and there's shuttling them out on a railroad. I want to give them clues that let them figure out an escape. I don't want to tell them how to get out so that they don't have to think anymore. Giving them a scroll of planar sending is not the same as telling them to call up their old buddy Elminster and seeing if he feels like giving them a hand with their vault raid. I'm willing to write an escape path into the game, but I need help figuring out how to do so without telling them how to use it.Last edited by valadil; 2011-05-16 at 12:17 PM.
If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.
-
2011-05-16, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
-
2011-05-16, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Well think of what your players will think of. If I knew I had an army over my head I'd first search for a way out. It's not really a railroad if they thought to search for the passage. Just make sure you don't give hints and let them choose that path of their own initiative.
Surrender is almost never an option for PCs. We're too proud for that typically, but your player's might be desperate enough.
If it's their idea they really can't complain of a railroad. Typically if they're truly desperate they'll think of their own ideas to escape, which coming out of your mouth would be Deus Ex Machina.
-
2011-05-16, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Somerville, MA
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
I'd love it if they would. I just want a backup path if they look at me with puppy eyes until I drop clues. At the moment I think surrender/being left alive is less plausible than a convenient tunnel, but I'm not fond of either option. Maybe I should kill them and let 'em fight their way out of the Shadowfell.
If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.
-
2011-05-16, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
- Location
- by May16th, Everett, WA
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Can't they bluff with the MacGuffin? Hold it hostage on the way out? If I was trapped by a rival seeking the same thing I was, I would threaten no one have it if I couldn't.
-
2011-05-16, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2010
- Location
- Dallas, TX
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
That's their job, not yours. You job is to adjudicate how their ideas work. So if you're good at improvisation, listen to their ideas and let one of them work.
And there's also counting on their ingenuity to find their own way out. Trust your players.
You're making the same mistake Roy made at the Oracle - ignoring option 3.
1. Give them a solution. They don't get to think about a solution or about clues.
2. Invent the solution and give them clues. They don't get to think about inventing a solution; they have to think about interpreting clues.
3. Listen to their ideas at the session. This is the only way that they are allowed to think about inventing a solution.
They don't need clues; they'll come up with more ideas than you will.
By the way, do they know everything the MacGuffin does? Can they use it? Does it have an intelligence? If you insist on inventing the solution and giving clues, don't forget that they currently have a powerful item whose powers they don't know. Perhaps you can invent a previously unknown power. Remember that Indiana JonesSpoilerfailed to save the Arc of the Covenant from the bad guys, and so it did it itself.
-
2011-05-16, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Stockholm, Sweden
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Well... if the enemy army has just arrived and don't expect the PC's to have beaten them, there'd be no reason to guard the shaft yet would there? And if your PC's come out after dusk, then noone would be able spot them until, at the earliest, at the top.
That could be rather amusing actually, allowing the PC's to climb up and then realise they are in fact surrounded by an entire army (who are completely oblivious to their existance... for now).
As for a way out. Well, if this is anything remotely like a army of the past... it'll include a lot of non-combatants milling about. Women doing laundry, boys fetching things, squires taking care of their masters' equipment, scoutings delivering hourly reports, soldiers out of armour, cooks and quartermasters ensuring the units are supplied. Plenty of opportunity to sneak out. Who'd notice another group milling about?
Ideally, unless they bump into a officer/quartermaster, they shouldn't even be found out until they're actually leaving the camp. If they'd take out the sentries quietly, the army shouldn't even be aware they're there until after the watch changes.
-
2011-05-16, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Somerville, MA
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
You're right of course. I think I'm just stressing because we had to skip a session. We usually meet every two weeks, but two of the players had to ditch to go to a graduation. I wrote the session in two weeks as usually and now I'm spending the rest of my time being anxious about how the session can go wrong. TY for the reassurance.
They do not know what it does and will not be able to use it even if they figure it out. The MacGuffin acts as a power source for 3.5 magic in place of Mystra. Anyone who is still alive from that time and knows 3rd ed spells can use it. It can also power up old artifacts that have run out of magic, which is the main reason it's a MacGuffin: the bad guys want to use it to power up the leftover teleporters that are all over Faerun so they can move their armies anywhere, freely. The good guys want to prevent that as well as find their own uses for it.
They've just shown up, but the shaft is their #1 priority. People will be dropping into it as soon as they figure out what it is. There's a lot of infighting among the Netherese, so they'll probably even be competing to be the one to go in first and claim the artifact.Last edited by valadil; 2011-05-16 at 12:47 PM.
If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.
-
2011-05-16, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Stockholm, Sweden
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
But won't priority one be to set up the camp, send out scouts to keep a lookout and settle down the soldiers? Armies are slow and cumbersome things. Examining a hole that won't go anywhere can wait until they've safely put down their defences, can't it? I mean... if an enemy army would attack when they're not prepared then they wouldn't get the thing they're seeking for anyways.
So there's a narrow time window your players could use.
-
2011-05-16, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- The One in the Middle
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
What was the nature of that extradimensional lock? Could it have been responsible for more than just locking- maybe it was part of what supported the surrounding rock and earth, and taking it down, coupled with the disturbance of removing the MacGuffin made the surrounding unstable, resulting in a cave in- locking them in and the army out but exposing a cavern system.
Now you've potentially changed the problem set- the party has to find a way out quickly, because the army is going to start digging their way towards them, and they have to figure out a way to transport the MacGuffin- you said it was large, can the terrain be an obstacle?
Something like this lets you out of your TPK, the escape is its own adventure, and the escape route fits into the scenario somewhat reasonably (unless you've already closed the "rocks fall, everybody lives" door).I drive a quantum car- every time I look down at the speedometer, I get lost.
_____________
As a juggler, I may not always be smarter than a banana. However, bananas aren't often surrounded by children asking for hugs and autographs.
-
2011-05-16, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
-
2011-05-16, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Somerville, MA
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Basically there were 9 elemental planes. Each had a switch. The players had to flip 4 of those in a certain order to unlock the vault in the middle. Figuring out the order while fighting off elementals was a pretty big dungeon (and that leaves me hesitant to make the escape path another dungeon). The middle was designed as a big treasure vault, but was not designed around having the artifact in it. I'm having trouble imagining it as a load bearing artifact, but I could probably fluff up something.
That had occurred to me. The problem is I don't trust myself to come up with a "but" that lets them out of this situation, but that they won't use throughout the rest of the campaign.If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.
-
2011-05-16, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Location
- In a box of dice
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Have the enemy army capture them. After all, how do you make daring escapes if you never get captured? Take some inspirado from Raiders of the Lost Ark, where Indy has the tomb collapsing all around him, escaping with the golden statue, only to have Belloq take it off him.
"Once again, Doctor jones..."
In other words, give them a setback. Make them have to escape captivity and recover the MacGuffin.
-
2011-05-16, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
I recommend you use either the "Indiana Jones" method or the "Lord of the Rings" method.
"Indiana Jones" method: Rene...I mean the Zhents take the ark...er, macguffin from the PCs, throw down another prisoner (new or reintroduced NPC!), and seal them back in leaving them for dead. Then the PCs discover a, previously overlooked, secret way out.
With all of the dimensional shenanigans going on in this vault, it's no stretch to see a new rift opening up (with help from the PCs) as a result of the Zhents attempt to reseal the vault.
"Lord of the Rings" method: Faced with an enemy army between themselves and their prize, the PCs, who are exhausted and low on resources, are relieved to find the enemy army moving off to confront some other threat that has presented itself (because if one army wants it that badly, there must be at least two).
Grateful for the momentary respite the PCs redouble their efforts and either climb out or come up with something else.
-
2011-05-16, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2008
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Wow. Your problem has elicited Three Indiana Jones references in one thread. I'm pretty sure that means you're required to let the PCs hide in a refrigerator while blowing up the macguffin nuclear-style. I forget what page it's on, but I know that's a rule.
-
2011-05-16, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Looking over this thread, I see an obvious solution.
You stated that the vault wasn't designed around the artifact, and that the artifact can power magics that otherwise no longer work - such as portals.
Who's to say there isn't an inactive portal somewhere in the vault between the party and the enemy army, that they could find, reactivate, and escape through? If I were there, and knew the capabilities of the artifact, that's the first thing I'd look for - using the artifact itself to circumvent security measures that weren't designed with it in mind.Zio Avatar by acelegna
Spoiler: Currently RunningNone ATM
Spoiler: Current CharactersNone ATM
-
2011-05-16, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Location
- Argonth
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Witty sig here nosey, aren't ya?
Avatar by Hacktor
-
2011-05-16, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- england, home of rain
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
the answer is simple. leave them to it. you will be supprised im sure. when put under pressure, a party can think of some really clever stuff you didnt even realise, and if they do climb up, they might manage to fight their way out (with a nice "whoops, reroll that one" attack once in a while that they dont know about) and if they die, then they die. what is the point in an adventure if there is no risk or danger?
-
2011-05-16, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
First thought: If there are any monsters in the vault, they need to get in somehow. They also need food/water/etc. from some source. It would be entirely possible (if time-consuming) to just dig their way up to the surface, or into a neighboring cavern system, by finding these faults in the walls.
Second, you mentioned that the artifact turns on deactive magical devices. The vault is in an extraplanar location. Perhaps this isn't where the vault "should" be? After all, if you are an arcane archmage, why just bury your precious artifact in a hole in the ground? Turning on the MacGuffin could simply Plane Shift the entire vault over to a secret plane, awaiting the (likely long dead) wizard to cast a command word to bring it back - a command word the Netherese don't know. Of course, now your players need to deal with dragging an artifact across a foreign plane with likely highly dangerous inhabitants.
Other than that, I agree with listening to the players and letting them try to find their way out. Dying in a massive explosion because you tried to dissolve the MacGuffin in acid may not be the best way to go, but a lot of players prefer to end a campaign on their own decisions rather than leave the campaign end to the hands of the plotline.
-
2011-05-17, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Lustria
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
-
2011-05-17, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
So they are in a pit and can't escape? Let them get captured and escape from the army prison. Should be easier for the players to come up with than to escape the pit through astral planes.
Besides, if the situation is hopeless, either they come up with a super wicked cool escape plan (which is ok) or they look at you in discomfort (capture them!).My personal folder is a graveyard of ideas, stuck in their dream phase.The "DM won't kill us" attitude is a bubble that sometimes needs to be bursted.Avatar courtesy of Linklele
There's an armor variant rule in UA that will drastically increase character survivability without completely bubble-wrapping them in plot invulnerabilityThrophies won:Spoiler
-
2011-05-17, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
- UK
- Gender
-
2011-05-17, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Somerville, MA
- Gender
Re: Help dig me out of a plot hole without resorting to deus ex machina
I suppose they could hide in a source of extradimensional space, get taken as loot, and then escape from the Netherese treasury.
The vault guardians were elementals native to the planes they were guarding. I was using that as an excuse to ignore the whole ecosystem thing.
For a little more backstory, the artifact is something very special to the Netherese that the Zhents stole. They dropped it in the most secure vault they had and camped out there. This isn't a vault designed specifically for this artifact. That said, I might be able to manage something where the artifact had acted on its own accord.
I don't see capture as an option. They'd get slaughtered. This isn't an army of decent people who happen to be on the other side of a territorial dispute. It's Netheril. They're the bad guys.
Disguise won't be easy, but it could work. I'll certainly prep for it.If you like what I have to say, please check out my GMing Blog where I discuss writing and roleplaying in greater depth.