One Sentence Fix: Base Classes

[Fineous Orlon]

I want to approach rebalancing 3.5 in such a way as to minimize argument and avoid detail dithering.

I would like to try "One Sentence Fixes" on base classes. The largest thrust of the balancing would be raising tier 3 and below some, while lowering tier 1 some, and tier 2 a bit.

Tier system link

I would like the change to any base class to at least make it tempting to try the class. Without knowing the dynamics of our group, you cannot really know what would be tempting to us, so 'a noticeable improvement' might also work.

The idea is to give lower tiers, especially melee, nicer things, simply, while nerfing the upper tiers, without gutting them, also simply.

One last point: I would rather close the gap between ToB classes and other non-caster base classes by improving the other non-caster base classes for the most part.

Examples follow:

[Fineous Orlon]

Reserved for really helpful ideas:

[Fineous Orlon]

Some examples with a bit of potential:

The Monk gets full BAB.

I realize that this may not fix the Monk, but it addresses a major flaw, and may make the monk attractive enough for someone to give it a shot.

A less polished version for the Paladin might address MAD and melee and say something like: "Charisma powers casting and Paladin gets 1 smite per class level per day."

A Ranger version might include Archivist Dark Knowledge powers as part of favored enemy [up to a certain point, like ~10th level Archivist].

Tier 1 nerfs might include: "the feat 'Natural Spell' does not exist, take still and silent spell and eschew materials as needed."

... or "Divine Metamagic does not exist."

... or "Full casters use bardic spell progression as far as casting is concerned."

... or [continuing tier 1 beatdown] "no quicken spell."

So, in other words, the idea should be concise, and needs to be 'positive spin enabled' to make it easy to sell or discuss at the table.

[ShiningStarling]

I like this idea, complex fixes are hard to sell.
How about: "Warmages get Cha edge and all arcane evocation spells."
or possibly: "Rogues get Dex to damage."
Good concept, I'll keep thinking.

[HalfDragonCube]

Monks get laserbeams from their eyes as a free action.

Commoners get no limit on the number of flaws they can take.

Dunno.

[jasonguppy]

Sorcerors get more powerful familiars.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Fighters can make a full attack as a standard action, and double their number of attacks on a full attack, taking one extra at their full attack bonus for the main attack, and taking one extra for each iterative attack at the appropriate penalty for the iterative attacks.

[jasonguppy]

Clerics get layonhands if good, injurous touch if evil, and celestial/fiendish companion and Favored Soul casting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Clerics get layonhands if good, injurous touch if evil, and celestial/fiendish companion and Favored Soul casting.

That makes clerics even more powerful! That's what we want to avoid!

[Zaydos]

Wizards may only know 8 spells of each level above 1st well enough to write them in a spellbook or memorize them.

Bringing back a hard cap to wizard spells known like in 2e.

Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Samurai, Swashbucklers, and Knights may make a full attack as a standard action starting at 6th level for fighters and 8th level for everyone else.

Again warriors (Fighter, Rangers, and Paladins) in 2e could move and still make multiple attacks; and 3e monsters seem balanced with the idea that you get a full attack more than half the time anyway (doubling attacks per round, though, is a bad idea as monsters aren't built to handle that output; look at Time Stands Still and think about why it's considered and aweseome ability).

Clerics must spend a feat for turn undead.

Wizards don't get bonus feats (including no Scribe Scrolls).

Wizards don't get familiars.

[Fisticuffs]

Monks get Flurry of Blows as a standard action and unarmed damage continues to go up after 20 and all bonuses to it stack.
Rogues get Barbarian Fast Movement and +2 Initiative at some point.
Pallies gets full Cha casting and get AC exalted bonus against undead and Evil outsiders.
Ranger's Animal Companion is Druid -4 levels instead of 1/2 level and if you took the TWF tree your second weapon gets any bonuses and properties that your first weapon has and not take a full round to do.
Fighters get a feat EVERY level after 10th level.

Should I throw out some for the non core classes?

EDIT: Scrap ALL metamagic feats!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Sorcerers get bonus metamagic feats.

Wizards don't; they are limited to item creation.

Paladins can turn Outsiders whose alignment is opposite theirs on at least one scale (a Lawful Good Paladin can turn all Outsiders that are either Evil, Chaotic, or both).

Paladins apply their CHA bonus and level to both attack and damage rolls

-OR-

Paladins get Smite Evil once per encounter as opposed to once per day (scaling up as usual).

[Fineous Orlon]

Wizards may only know 8 spells of each level above 1st well enough to write them in a spellbook or memorize them.

Bringing back a hard cap to wizard spells known like in 2e.

Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Knights may make a full attack as a standard action starting at 6th level for fighters and 8th level for everyone else.

Again warriors (Fighter, Rangers, and Paladins) in 2e could move and still make multiple attacks;

That is an interesting look at things. A more 2Ed feel with solid 3Ed rules support may do a lot of what I am looking for.

The move plus full attack may almost be necessary to this idea [of elevating fighter classes/tiers], as, of course, full attack could be seen as one of the fighter's highest level spells.

So either casters cannot move more than 5' and cast, or fighter types can move and full attack.

Maybe put Samurai in that list as well. Love Toshiro Mifune, hate 3.5 Samurai.

Clerics must spend a feat for turn undead.

Wizards don't get bonus feats (including no Scribe Scrolls).

Wizards don't get familiars.

Fertile ground.

[Zaydos]

Maybe put Samurai in that list as well. Love Toshiro Mifune, hate 3.5 Samurai.

I forgot the class existed... I just use Warblades for my samurais. Iron Heart + Tiger Claw dual-wielding and a little Diamond Mind = Miyamoto Musashi.

Should add Swashbucklers, though.

[Fisticuffs]

Should add Swashbucklers, though.

Grace should also add competence bonus to AC. Dodge should start at 4th or be a bigger bonus and at higher levels should be splitable. Dex for some Str skills?

Samurai should get the same things my TWF Ranger should get also it should treat its two weapons as light. Its Iaijutsu Master should start out as both feats and should do something the first time he strikes each encounter. His Staredown abilities need to make it a free action at some point. Frightful Presence needs to be bumped down afew levels and affect opponents that matter. Rend would be nice. As a level cap it should be able to do something ridiculous do demoralized, shaken, frightened, or panicked foes.

[Merk]

Paladins: Pathfinder paladins with more skill points.

[Seerow]

EDIT: Scrap ALL metamagic feats!

This basically kills the blaster wizard, forcing wizards to focus on the more powerful effects they have their disposal.

I could see eliminating some of the major offenders, no fell drain, no quicken spell, no persist spell, and maybe some of the stronger damage boosters (such as twin spell or energy admixture), but eliminating them all simply tells the caster "Don't bother doing damage, go do awesome things instead"

[Fisticuffs]

This basically kills the blaster wizard, forcing wizards to focus on the more powerful effects they have their disposal.

I could see eliminating some of the major offenders, no fell drain, no quicken spell, no persist spell, and maybe some of the stronger damage boosters (such as twin spell or energy admixture), but eliminating them all simply tells the caster "Don't bother doing damage, go do awesome things instead"

Sounds more like a "more powerful effects" problem to me.

[Seerow]

Sounds more like a "more powerful effects" problem to me.

Well tell me, would you rather have the wizard blasting and dealing competent but not overpowering damage... or have the wizard winning encounters in a single turn with save or sucks?

My point is that for the most part, damage is the weakest choice a caster can choose to specialize in. Taking away metamagics means they can no longer specialize in that, so taking away all metamagic effects actually makes Wizards stronger by taking away their weakest option.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

How about: "Warmages get Cha edge and all arcane evocation spells."

All arcane evocations would probably be a bit much. From a power standpoint, adding 20-25 new spells to the warmage list from the PHB alone before we even think about SpC, PHB2, etc., all castable spontaneously, would make many offense-focused arcane builds almost completely obsolete. From a logistics standpoint, managing that spell list would be a nightmare. Also, "moar blasting" is not the solution to the warmage problem, rather the warmage needs more warlike spells that aren't just damage spells; communication, summoning, battlefield control, and similar spells are needed if you want to be a war mage and not just a walking artillery piece. So instead, my warmage fix would be:

"Warmage Edge is Cha-based; at each warmage level, a warmage gets Advanced Learning, for any desired arcane evocation or conjuration (summoning or creation) spell."

That gives the warmage access to some summoning, some more control (e.g. better walls and solid fog), some transportation and defense (e.g. phantom steed and Leomund's secure shelter), and so forth without going overboard.



Some other fixes, off the top of my head, along with rationales:

"If you have a BAB better than 3/4 character level, you can full attack as a standard action."
Any combat-focused character should be able to do this, but you shouldn't be able to get it with just a dip as a lower-BAB character and conversely you shouldn't penalize martial characters for dips into non-full-BAB classes; this lets martial fighters retain the ability even if they lose a few BAB, lets 3/4 BAB combat characters pick it up if they have at least a 1:4 full BAB:medium BAB class ratio, and doesn't give it with a fighter dip.

"Flurry of Blows is identical in effect to, and stacks with, Snap Kick; monks have full BAB."
Flurry of blows is now usable on all attacks, does not restrict movement, and is much simpler logistically.

"Paladins choose either Wis or Cha and use that for everything, and have smites per-encounter rather than per-day."
"Spontaneous casters gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat and don't increase casting time for metamagicked spells."
"All druids are now shapeshift druids."
All common and simple fixes.

"Anything that reduces metamagic costs, in any form, no longer exists."
Metamagic isn't overpowered at all; in fact, except in a very few cases, it's almost never worth it to add 3 spell levels for maximum damage with Maximize or cast a level X-4 spell twice with Twin instead of casting a level X spell--and in those few cases, either you're simply increasing damage (which is fine, as it makes blasting more useful) or it's the overpowered and under-leveled spells like shivering touch and celerity that cause problems, not metamagic.

"Swashbucklers, monks, and paladins add their key ability (Int, Wis, or Cha, respectively) as an insight bonus to anything keyed off Str and Dex except carrying capacity, to a maximum of their level in the corresponding class."
This gives swashbucklers Int to AC without having to go into Duelist, gives paladins a bit more tankiness, helps with all three classes' MADness, and helps them really pack a punch at mid levels and up.

"There is no such thing as 'precision damage' or 'immune to critical hits' anymore; oozes and oozelike/fluidlike creatures gain the Amorphous special quality."
Crit-immunity and creatures being un-sneak-attack-able doesn't make much sense in many cases. The roper, a glorified stalagmite, is vulnerable to crits, but you can't get in a particularly hard blow on an earth elemental, which is essentially the same thing? You can get in a nice skull-smashing crit on a humanoid, but smashing the skull of an animated frikkin' skeleton, when you don't have to go through all those layers of skin, does nothing special? All crit immunity does is force rogues to pick up ACFs and wands of various spells to overcome it, screw over Sudden Strike/Skirmish/Manyshot/falchion/etc. users unnecessarily, and remove what little excitement surrounding crits there is. If you really, truly are nothing more than a blob, you can have Amorphous to make you immune to crits, but it shouldn't be type based at all.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hm, let's see...

Monks can use a full attack or flurry as a standard action.

Paladins have their spells based off charisma, or their divine grace based off wisdom, either one.

Fighters get some feat changes: whirlwind attack can be used as a standard action, cleave and great cleave simply need to hit the target to be triggered, not kill him, and combat expertise doesn't cap at 5.

Bards gain 8+int skill ranks per level, x4 at first level, and 5 ranks in knowledge (local) or gather information gives a +2 synergy bonus on Bardic Knowledge, same as knowledge (history).

Rogues are Pathfinder rogues.

Rangers are Pathfinder rangers.

[NineThePuma]

Spells require a spellcraft check equal to 10+Spell Level - Primary Attribute to cast.

Rangers and Paladins can cast spontaneously from their entire spell list, and have caster level = Class level -3.

[Epsilon Rose]

Spells require a spellcraft check equal to 10+Spell Level - Primary Attribute to cast.

Just checking, but you do realize that's going to be very close to dc 10 for the most part and you're counting their stat twice? Also, I'm not sure how good an idea checks are: to low and they're just a waste of time, to high and you start running into truenamers.

[NineThePuma]

Oh, I'm well aware. I just like making being a caster so damn annoying that you toss it away x3

[T.G. Oskar]

Limited to one sentence, you say? Hmm...that'll be tough. I love describing...

In any case:

Paladins' smites are per encounter instead of daily, they get full CL and they replace Remove Disease for a wide selection of bonus feats

Spoiler

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The first is a basic move; the wider version would be "Paladins get smites per encounter, which are made as part of an attack action but only once per round". That makes Smites much more useful as they can be used as part of an attack of opportunity or as part of a full action, offering a boost on attack and damage rolls.

The second is also basic. They get some good spells that could use better CL, so let's give it to them. Why not?

The final is because Remove Disease is a pisspoor ability that could be easily transplanted into their spells with little loss, but they definitely need bonus feats to complement their fighting style. With Fighter Bonus Feats, Divine Feats, Domain Feats and probably Exalted Feats you can cover the quota pretty easily.

[Thrawn183]

The Healer casts spontaneously and knows all the spells on its spell list.

No metamagic reducers (Easy Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, Divine Metamagic).

No breaking the action economy (Quicken Spell, Time Stop, Belt of Battle, etc.)

[Siosilvar]

Spells require a spellcraft check equal to 10+Spell Level - Primary Attribute to cast.

A first-level wizard with int 16 has +7 (4 ranks, +3 int) vs. DC 8 (10 + 1st level - 3 int), and so cannot fail.

A first-level sorcerer who wants to replicate the same needs to take Skill Focus (Spellcraft), as does the cleric.

That's not annoying, that's completely irrelevant. Not to mention that skills rise twice as high with level as spell levels do; maxing skill ranks, keeping a minimum ability score to cast the highest-level spells, and avoiding anything else that may boost your skill check means you auto-pass at 8th level, assuming an Int bonus of 0. (Wizards have it better: DC 12 at 6th level is matched by a +11 check.)

EDIT: Things I like from this thread so far.

Flurry of Blows is identical in effect to, and stacks with, Snap Kick; monks have full BAB.

Paladins choose either Wis or Cha and use that for everything, and have smites per-encounter rather than per-day.

Spontaneous casters gain Eschew Materials as a bonus feat and don't increase casting time for metamagicked spells.

All druids are now shapeshift druids.

There is no such thing as 'precision damage' or 'immune to critical hits' anymore; oozes and oozelike/fluidlike creatures gain the Amorphous special quality.

The last one with some modifications.

Rangers and Paladins can cast spontaneously from their entire spell list, and have caster level = Class level -3.

The Monk gets full BAB.

A Ranger version might include Archivist Dark Knowledge powers as part of favored enemy [up to a certain point, like ~10th level Archivist].

the feat 'Natural Spell' does not exist, take still and silent spell and eschew materials as needed.

Full casters use bardic spell progression as far as casting is concerned.

Also:

Nightsticks do not stack.
All metamagic reducers apply once per spell, maximum.

[Epsilon Rose]

I don't understand the full casters use bardic progression thing. Doesn't that just make them bards but significantly worse?

[Seerow]

I don't understand the full casters use bardic progression thing. Doesn't that just make them bards but significantly worse?

They'd still have better spell lists.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I don't understand the full casters use bardic progression thing. Doesn't that just make them bards but significantly worse?

As Seerow said, they still have better spells. Teleportation, polymorphing, mind control, etc. are still amazing if you get them a few levels later. You can still play a god wizard or CoDzilla with only 6th level spells, but stretching spell levels out balances things by making it easier on the DM (no need to worry about 7th+ level spells) and slows the power creep (you get flying, invisibility, and other game-changers later, so the rapid power curve is flattened a bit for everyone), so it's a much easier fix than nerfing or banning individual spells while still providing wide-ranging balance improvements.