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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrWeird's Avatar

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    Default Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    Alright, playgrounders.

    This isn't a thread for ToB arguments and any will be summarily ignored. But to make a long story short, after much back and forth with my to-be fiancee, we've decided on something.

    We've both decided that fighters need help, but we agree most of the fixes out there are too many Marshal-esque or ToB fixes for them that we don't really want. We've both, however, decided that we like the idea of fighting styles, even if we don't appreciate how ToB handled it. So, instead, I've begun brainstorming exactly how to handle it.

    We want to dedicate the fighter class to get class features, not so much a spellcasting-esque or aura-esque gains of ToB classes or Auras of Marshals. We certainly want to focus on fighting schools - a fighter selecting at first level a certain school from which they gain both mechanical benefits and abilities befitting their given school; sort of like specialist wizards for fighters. We enjoy the ideas of the Exotic Weapon Master and the selectable skills of rogues at high levels, and consider allowing them to pick from a pool of abilities that scale in benefit or unlock specific benefits for them later.

    We're not looking for a critique of this system, but some help setting down the mechanics and developing some schools, from you, the gracious playgrounders. At first, we can just sling around some ideas; even if you don't want to help build, feel free to submit ideas for schools or abilities gained for this ambitious but humble program - any help is appreciated.

    Right now I'm looking over the fighting styles currently in 3.0 and 3.5 and picking them apart; they're a good place to start but nothing like what I'm aiming for - a progressive series of selectable class features in a chosen group for fighters. Feel like they should get access to more than one? Tell us so, we'd love your opinions. Feel free to submit to previous editions of projects like this, so we can draw from them (but give credit where credit is due, of course), and naturally, drawing from any official source, even ToB is welcome.

    The goal, if you're wondering for direction, is to give a flavored but focused direction for a fighter's prowess in combat to provide with scaling benefits and abilities that other characters can't manage in battle - sort of like a deadly, mundane and focused factotum, I suppose.
    Last edited by DrWeird; 2011-05-12 at 10:25 AM.
    Et tu, Brute?

    My home-brewed bootleg Homebrew



    I tried to be reasonable and nice; but everybody wouldn't quit trying to turn every spellcaster into a Tier 1.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Dec 2010

    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    Unless you are very adverse to the Pathfinder system, these might help you:
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core...rdlord-Brevoy-

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    If I were you, I'd design specialist trees. Once every number of levels, the fighter gains access to a new tier, and new special attack options based on already existing stuff, with some action progression.

    For instance, a fighter who wields a two-handed mace could choose the Bull style *name sucks, doesn't matter* at first level. When she wields a two-handed mace, she can use that weapon to perform bull-rushes with, dealing damage as well as knocking the target back on a success.
    Let's say that, at level two, she can choose the direction of the knock-back, and step in immediately. At level four, she can do something else with a bull-rush that is awesome, as well as pick a new specialist style. And at level six, she can choose to progress in the bull-rush style or her new specialist style. And so on, and so on.

    We can get trip, disarm, grapple, bull-rush, overrun, charge and sunder specialists, all with a tree of special options which you can perform.
    A trip specialist could, perhaps, use her trip attack to further cripple her enemies, a disarm specialist might be able to throw the disarmed weapon as a weapon attack against someone else, an overrun specialst.. Dunno, as charge specialist might eventually get pounce, a sunder specialist might damage the armour so that instead of becoming useless, it becomes hampering... Things like that.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    I have nothing specific to contribute at the moment, but a couple of things to keep in mind:


    -Remember that (Ex) does not have to mean Mundane. You don't need to make the Fighter fling fireballs, but he should have access to cool things, not just bigger numbers. Fighter's numbers are plenty big enough with just feats. A shield Fighter should be able to get things like Spell Resistance, Shield Others, or block line of effect to his allies, for example. A power attack fighter should be able to shatter a force cage or wall of force. Don't be afraid to look at weapon enhancements and spells for effects that can be refluffed to (Ex) abilities for the Fighter to use.

    -Keep flexibility in mind. Consider allowing the Fighter to have more than just one Fighting style he can pick up. One of the Fighter's biggest problems is he is generally locked into a specific feat chain, and is decent inside his specialization, but any encounter where that specialization can't be used, he's rendered worthless.

    -Resource management is important. This is the big thing most Fighter fixes that don't go with Tome of Battle fair at. You need to have some sort of resource management, or the Fighter will just spam his best ability every turn of an encounter with no variation. Different encounters may call for different abilities to use, but once that ability is determined, it will be used nonstop.

    With my Fighter fix, I went with a variation of the Combat Focus/Psionic Focus mechanics, several class features that give you benefit while you maintain a focus, and a bigger benefit if you expend it, but you can't recover it for a few rounds, so it's a trade off. At higher levels you can recover it faster, and even maintain multiple foci, to keep things varied and force changing up what you use.

    Other possible resource systems are things like the ToB maneuvers, or even something like Psionics. Indeed one idea I've been kicking around recently is a Fighter who gets a Stamina pool, which refreshes with 5 minutes of rest, and is used to fuel powers. That way you don't get the "I can't swing my sword like that again this encounter" from ToB, but you get "I need to conserve or I won't be able to do anything special at all, because I'm too worn out", which I think fits with more peoples' idea of a martial character.

    But regardless the point is, that you need some sort of limiter on abilities, to encourage players to mix it up. Full Attacking every round, or charging every round or using ability X every round is simply boring gameplay.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


  5. - Top - End - #5
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    I played around with this when I was trying to spruce up 3.5 so it would have the feel of 4e at low levels. I thought this meant that all characters needed the ability to do something neat at low levels, but that would grow over time. I'm going to post some of "my ideas" but I need to acknowledge that none of these are purely mine and have come from things I have read here and on other sites.

    Armor Styles:
    Heavy - Fighters are better at using heavy armor, as they gain levels, the AC bonus for their armor increases. Additionally, Heavy Armor fighters can nullify damage from one attack as a swift action X times per day (probably not more than 2 or 3)
    Medium - Fighters get both bonuses to AC and reductions to Check Penalties as they level
    Light - Fighters get reductions to Check Penalties as they level. Additionally, Light Armor Fighters can perform a full round attack as a standard action X times per day.

    Weapon Styles:
    I created a system called combat maneuvers that allowed martial (extraordinary abilities) characters to perform maneuvers when they beat their target's AC by a certain amount. These were customizable and based somewhat off of 4e's abilities. I included things like getting free trip attacks with no AoOs, reducing an opponent's movement by smashing their legs, being able to find holes in armor for extra damage, etc.
    I can't find the list now, I'll try and look them up later if you're interested.

    Other Fighter Things:
    I decided that at the core, all fighters are experienced at combat (or become so) and have the job of keeping their party safe from bad things, so I added a few universal fighter techniques. For example, having AoOs equal to your Wis bonus instead of just 1; being able to carry 2x the normal load without experiencing penalties; "improvised interrupt" - fighters can, within a certain radius, as an AoO, target a caster readying a spell (or similar target) by picking up a rock, etc from the ground and throwing it at them, forcing them to make a concentration check to keep the spell.

    Hope these help.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakun View Post
    I played around with this when I was trying to spruce up 3.5 so it would have the feel of 4e at low levels. I thought this meant that all characters needed the ability to do something neat at low levels, but that would grow over time. I'm going to post some of "my ideas" but I need to acknowledge that none of these are purely mine and have come from things I have read here and on other sites.

    Armor Styles:
    Heavy - Fighters are better at using heavy armor, as they gain levels, the AC bonus for their armor increases. Additionally, Heavy Armor fighters can nullify damage from one attack as a swift action X times per day (probably not more than 2 or 3)
    Medium - Fighters get both bonuses to AC and reductions to Check Penalties as they level
    Light - Fighters get reductions to Check Penalties as they level. Additionally, Light Armor Fighters can perform a full round attack as a standard action X times per day.

    Weapon Styles:
    I created a system called combat maneuvers that allowed martial (extraordinary abilities) characters to perform maneuvers when they beat their target's AC by a certain amount. These were customizable and based somewhat off of 4e's abilities. I included things like getting free trip attacks with no AoOs, reducing an opponent's movement by smashing their legs, being able to find holes in armor for extra damage, etc.
    I can't find the list now, I'll try and look them up later if you're interested.

    Other Fighter Things:
    I decided that at the core, all fighters are experienced at combat (or become so) and have the job of keeping their party safe from bad things, so I added a few universal fighter techniques. For example, having AoOs equal to your Wis bonus instead of just 1; being able to carry 2x the normal load without experiencing penalties; "improvised interrupt" - fighters can, within a certain radius, as an AoO, target a caster readying a spell (or similar target) by picking up a rock, etc from the ground and throwing it at them, forcing them to make a concentration check to keep the spell.

    Hope these help.
    Combat maneuvers have already been created for 3.5, in an official 1st party source. It's called Tome of Battle.

    The thing about adding your wisdom bonus to AoOs per round just makes MAD, which weakens it.
    Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    D20r did a very good job with Fighting Style

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrWeird's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    I love the input so far, everyone.

    I enjoy the idea of the stamina pool - gives a sort of justification to being able to do certain abilities a limited number of times per day. And the comment about the abilities tiers and specialist trees was excellent - that's almost exactly what I intended. The real challenge beyond the naturally lengthy building of the styles is overcoming, as mentioned, the shoehorning into a single field of advantage; of course, use of the stamina pool can help with this, but in the end, there will be, to a degree, some shoehorning which is unavoidable when you're taking trees of class abilities. In fact this is sort of the intention with the comment I made about specialists for fighters. I'm aware that this can be dangerous and boring for them, and I've begun groundwork on a net for that.

    I'm considering a blanket of neutral abilities (akin to the universal spells) that can be taken at any level which don't fit into any set which can be taken to interrupt the monotony of one length of specialization, as well as granting access to multiple areas of expertise.

    A side comment; as nice as abilities akin to feats are, the fighter already gets the most, and it's a bit less focused than my idea, but of course extra feats will always be gained. What this amounts to are actual class features unique but similar to the advantages gained by feats, only tactically speaking working in association outside the realm of what can be gained in a feat. For example, at some point, being able to move and unleash a full attack as a standard action in one turn. Can this be done with feats and items? Yes, but only with a certain build that completely railroads your character. I want things like that to be a feat, because a fighter dedicated to [insert style here] would learn how to do that, but it wouldn't completely define him. Hope I cleared up some things. if we have to make a few fighter PrCs and ACF's obsolete along the way, so be it.

    Love the feats, Xzoltar; they amount to the "numbers game" side of benefits the fighter would get - which I want to work in tandem with the mechanical benefits. Example - there's a maneuver (stance? I haven't read ToB in a while; gonna do so tonight with a fine tooth comb for things I like) that inflicts a -4 penalty to all attacks by enemies against anyone except you; it's as much a number game benefit as much as it is a mechanical benefit for your tank as well as the rest of the party.
    Last edited by DrWeird; 2011-05-12 at 01:07 PM.
    Et tu, Brute?

    My home-brewed bootleg Homebrew



    I tried to be reasonable and nice; but everybody wouldn't quit trying to turn every spellcaster into a Tier 1.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    Perhaps fighting styles that give bonuses similar to what the archery feat chains do. Extra attacks or bonuses to attack and defense, or other additional bonuses based on weapons and armor combinations used. An example I've always wanted to use for a fighter is a light armored dual wielder that also uses kicks and punches with his weapons. Monks WOULD work, but I wanted something armored, lightly. An example bonus could be a reduced skill check penalty when wearing light armor, as well as losing bonus attacks when wearing heavier. Perhaps give them something where if they hit with all their weapon attacks, they get a free unarmed attack. Complete Warrior had alot of good options as feats that would make good class features if used right.
    Sir Ouranos Helaine, The Silver Wing, Paladin of Bahamut
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DrWeird's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building Fighting Styles! We want YOU!

    Exams have kept me away, but here for your consideration despite the best attempts of my college (Run by a South American Lich - of this I am sure) to keep me, I've finally completed the Beta of the first Style. My fiancee to be really helped with the idea of this one.

    Style: a Fighter of 1st level selects a Style. At 1st, 2nd, & every even numbered level afterwards, he gains additional benefits from his chosen style, gaining Fighter Bonus Feats at 1st and every odd level thereafter.

    Halfling Shortskirmish Style

    Spoiler
    Show


    (Gonna reformat it properly later; this is just the assembled rough draft I wrote up in the messenger window.)

    1st - Gain Tumble as a class feature, add 1/2 fighter level to all Tumble checks.

    2nd - Add initiative to armor class for 1st round of combat, & gain attack of opportunity on a successful Tumble on any enemies you threaten from your squares upon a successful tumble.

    4th - Evasion & Add your Base Attack Bonus to Feint attempts

    6th - Offensive Tumbling & Guard Tricker - Fighter may attempt to disarm a target as a move action at a +1 bonus, increasing by +1 for every even level after up to 20th.
    Also you benefit from Improved Disarm whenever attempting to disarm an opponent this way.

    8th is Uncanny Dodge, and being able to make a 5 foot step at the end of a successful tumble - after making the attack of opportunity of course.

    10th - Offensive Tumbling treats anyone subject to an AoO as flat-footed, and may make Feints as a swift action.

    12th - Improved Evasion OR Uncanny Dodge, and is able to read an opponent's movements - granting either a bonus to attack rolls against the target or a penalty to the target's AC once per encounter if the opponent fails an attack roll against you - the difference is used for the chosen value. Lasts for a numbers of rounds equal to 1/4 your fighter level. Can't be stacked on the same target and can only be active against one target for every five fighter levels.

    14th - May accept a -2 to the attempt to initiate a free Trip attack on an opponent whom you threaten during a Tumble (NOT from the squares where it ends), & ignore all difficult terrain when moving or Tumbling

    16th - Any opponent you threaten is treated as flanked for the purposes of determining if allies benefit from flanking it, even if the enemy cannot usually be flanked; as well, a on an opponent your ally threatens, they are treated as flanked for you, & ignore all difficult terrain when Tumbling, even magical.

    18th - When the fighter successfully Tumbles past an opponent, they may resolve any AoOs granted by the Tumble with disarm and Trip attempts.

    20th - Gain full number of attacks on a flat-footed opponent.



    Tell me what you think; I've got an excellent idea of the direction I wanted this to go in, I'm just not sure it's correctly focused or viable. More to come soon.
    Last edited by DrWeird; 2011-05-25 at 09:25 PM.
    Et tu, Brute?

    My home-brewed bootleg Homebrew



    I tried to be reasonable and nice; but everybody wouldn't quit trying to turn every spellcaster into a Tier 1.

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